How can Plagueis and Palps threaten the Force when they actually use it to perform their abilities?
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Because they're partially taking control of the Force on a fundamental level, not just using it. Midichlorians are the Force's "proxy army", you're not supposed to be able to destroy, alter or create them on command, but Plagueis found a way. Tenebrous took it a step further and separated midichlorians from the Force's control altogether, and then uploaded his consciousness into them.
(which is kind of a big deal)
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
He has never affected/manipulated the midi-chlorians in the novel at a macro-cosmic level(he certainly wanted that). He could just manipulate the midi-chlorians inside someone's body. And these midi-chlorians don't have a thought, they can't think(at least not in human terms)
What Plagueis and Sidious did during their sex session wasn't about manipulating midi-chlorians but about laying a shroud of darkness on the light side. And it required months of concentration. Tenebrous' Sith Master also helped a bit.
And once the dark side began to take over the light side, the Force created the Chosen One as result(per Lucas' canon)
But when Anakin is presented to the council, Windu notes that he is a Verge in the Force. That may mean that Anakin hasn't been the only one in history. Even Revan can be considered as one since he is known as the Force's Champion or the Heart of the Force.
We can safely state that any time when the dark side takes over and the balance is broken, the Force brings out someone, through certain means, to deal with it. It could be Revan, Anakin, a group of Force-sensitives, etc
Aside note: The Force doesn't care what you do as long as the Balance(light side) prospers in the galaxy. You can manipulate lots of midi-chlorians or do some nasty rituals(there is already someone prepared or less prepared in trying to stop you); if your actions don't cause an imbalance, the Force overlooks your pitiful dark side successes. Or follow Kreia's philosophy and assume that it was the Force's divine plan all along causing imbalance for the sake of balance(which is the cycle of bliss and suffering)
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 10th, 2018 at 09:07 PM
"(...)they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force."
We can clearly see that the reason they asserted their sovereignty is due to the fact that the midi-chlorians didn't do anything to them. They didn't factually knew they succeded, they assumed based on the midi-chlorians' respond.
"No counterforce had risen against them."
Pretty much it tells me it was the plan of the Force all along.
Note: If the Imbalance were to be true. We would have the Force yielding described first and then the "no counterface" description. But it's the other way around. They didn't make the Force yield(Imbalance) because there was no counterfacing from the very beginning.
"(...) they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."
It is clearly presented in the novel that the whole Force Imbalance was from their own perspective. Not only that, but even Plagueis wonders if it is really possible to do that after the mediation's ended.
At the very beginning of the session it was mentioned the arrogant and overconfident nature of these two Sith Lords while conducting their dark side meditation.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Yeah, that's what I said. The Force finds it threatening when people start taking control of it.
Yeah... what's your point? And no, as Az pointed out, they didn't have any help. They actually had to reverse the effects of a galaxy-wide Light Side bubble that was maintained by the Jedi, after they wiped out nearly all the Sith. Tenebrous' master only partially helped burst the bubble, Plagueis and Sidious burst it fully and then suffused the galaxy with the Dark Side.
This is incoherent bullshit, lol. Anakin was miraculously conceived and has the latent powers of a deity, the Force quite literally created him because the galaxy so far tilted towards the Dark Side and needed a god to bring back balance. There is no proof Revan is anything along those lines, or anyone else. Revan's flowery descriptions from in-universe characters aren't backed up by anything.
All this shows is that you have no idea what you're talking about. You would only have needed to watch the movies to work out that Anakin is unlike any other character in the mythos.
You are right in saying that the Force will ignore pitiful Dark Side successes, which is why Sidious and Plagueis were the only ones successful enough to have the Force deliberately spawn a champion to defeat them. Nobody else posed that level of cosmic threat to the Force.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
It's only your Lucas conception that Anakin is a god. What we know from Lucas(from his point of view) is that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi due to his Chosen status and his destiny to end Bane's Sith lineage. We have seen him many times on the war field, and he is just an above-average typical Jedi like any other. Heck, even in Legends, he had to use the Mortis' Force nexus to subdue the Brother and the Son.
As about; the imbalance, check my last comment(below the other that you quoted)
As about your last point, this isn't the only time when the galaxy was bathed in the dark side of the Force. It also happened during Darth Revan and/or Malak's reign, the Sith Triumvirate's reign, Krayt's reign, even during DE Palpatine's reign.
Sith Lords can "overthrow" the balance in more ways than doing a sex session with each other.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 10th, 2018 at 10:00 PM
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
Anakin hadn't unlocked his full potential during the clone wars, not even in his Knightfall Vader incarnation. There are times when he unrestrics himself and unlocks some of his awesome power, like when he fights Ventress, she disarms him, then he gets angry and beats her in seconds, whilst flashbacks of Jedi Masters play in his mind, indicating that he's let go of Jedi restrictions, which mentally handicapped him, this happened in ROTS against Dooku as well as operation Knightfall.
As for Mortis, the nexus is irrelevant. No other Jedi or Sith including Sheev, could stand in that spot and do what Anakin did there, which was ragdoll the children.
The unbalances in the force in the past/future were caused collectively. Plagueis and Sidious' shifted the force of the galaxy from light to dark by themselves.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Give me a break. What you said is from Lucas' point of view(a fact only in his own world) with the 80% and takes into account Anakin's body limitation.
Anakin and Obi-Wan had a Force-push contest and they were evenly matched(when Ani was angry)
We have Legends Sith Lords who underwent physical traumas or Soul-transferred themselves and preserved their Force strength(Vitiate, Nihilus, Sion<he was already dead> )
Legends-wise, I don't see how body changes affect Anakin's potential.
As about Mortis. The Father kept in check both of his children for *eons* by himself. So, you are wrong. If Anakin was some sort of god, he wouldn't need the aid of a Force nexus.
As about Plagueis and Sidious shifting the light to darkness is>than the collective of the other Sith is wrong due to the fact that in both cases it took some time. If the other Sith hadn't met Jedi resistance and other resistance in their way of harming the galaxy(as consequence not needing soldiers to carry on their tasks); they'd have succeeded, by themselves, in a few months too.
As about the Chosen One myth. Given that the Sith returned from the grave after both Vader and Sidious 'perished'. The prophecy is no longer true.
Other option would be to assume that any era has a Chosen One when an imbalance in the Force occurs.
As about the whole imbalance, it was already presented in the novel that the Force gave no resistance, it let them to shroud the light side to fulfill the ancient prophecy. It was only in their minds that the imbalance occured.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 11th, 2018 at 12:38 PM
I did. But the whole Imbalance cannot be used as feat since they were let to cause it.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
None of your queries imply superiority of Darth Plagueis over Valkorion, if this is your intent.
Note following:
"We shall see what comes to pass. Until such time we must accept the fact that no mere army can overwhelm the Jedi. The ancient Sith were tens of thousands strong and failed the test. Once the galaxy teemed with warriors and warships. Now we have only isolated bands of mercenaries and star system defense forces. That’s why we must strive to return the galaxy to a state where barbarism is the norm."
"The Jedi will have to be felled from within," Sidious said, his eyes tracking Plagueis as the Muun paced the floor.
Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
&
While he accepted that he and Plagueis were more than equal to the most powerful of the Jedi Order, he understood that they were no match for their combined strength—the Sith imperative notwithstanding.
Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
Message is loud and clear - we cannot expect Ziost TIER showings from these guys.
Why the Force did not spawn the Chosen One to defeat Abeloth?
Perhaps the tug-of-war was more intense in ancient times?
This could be a factor:
The first great conflict between the Republic and the Sith Empire occurred when two hyperspace explorers stumbled on the Sith worlds, giving the Sith Lord Naga Sadow and his dark side warriors a direct invasion route into the Republic's central worlds. This war resulted in the first destruction of the Sith Empire—but it was hardly the last. For the next four thousand years, skirmishes between the Republic and Sith grew into wars, with the scales always tilting toward one or the other, and peace never lasting. The galaxy was a place of almost constant strife: Sith armies against Republic armies; Force-using Sith Lords against Jedi Masters and Jedi Knights; and the dreaded nomadic mercenaries called Mandalorians bringing muscle and firepower wherever they stood to gain.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
As for the shift during the era of Bannite Sith, keep in mind that the Jedi Order became increasingly political and out of touch of its ancient ways. In addition, corruption spread across the galaxy and the Jedi probably felt that this was the contributing factor. The Jedi were unaware of existence of Sith on top.
There would be only two Sith at a time: a Master and an apprentice. From that time on, the Sith remained in hiding, biding their time and plotting their revenge, while the rest of the galaxy enjoyed an unprecedented era of peace, so long and strong that the Republic eventually dismantled its standing armies.
But while the Republic seemed strong, its institutions had begun to rot. Greedy corporations sought profits above all else and a corrupt Senate did nothing to stop them, until the corporations reduced many planets to raw materials for factories and entire species became subjects for exploitation. Individual Jedi continued to defend the Republic's citizens and obey the will of the Force, but the Jedi Order to which they answered grew increasingly out of touch. And a new Sith mastermind, Darth Sidious, at last saw a way to restore Sith domination over the galaxy and its inhabitants, and quietly worked to set in motion the revenge of the Sith …
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Valkorion tanked an assault of a holocron designed to destroy Sith spirits while in spirit form and crushed it in response. Valkorion even remarked that no superweapon can stop him.
Willpower is always a contributing factor in these matters.
Bith sciences were a substitute for Sith Sorcery but not entirely. Darth Plagueis acknowledged that Sith Sorcery enabled ancient Sith to perform deeds of incredible complexity with relative ease.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 11th, 2018 at 02:06 PM
...? Those quotes don't have anything to do with what you think they do, lol.
Well Abeloth is eventually defeated in large part by the son of the Chosen One, so the prophecy lives on. Regardless, Abeloth was actually released by the Force to retaliate against Caedus's meddling with the Current, so I'm not sure why it would release a Chosen One to stop itself. Normally, of course, Abeloth would be stopped by the Son and Daughter.
So again, no contradiction here. Abeloth too requires counters by either Forceful/divine beings or children of Forceful/divine beings. Valkorion simply isn't in the same league of cosmic danger, despite cosmic feats being his supposed specialty. He is, in the grand scheme of things, not a villain in the same league of mythic weight as Palpatine or Plagueis.
Once again, none of these quotes mean what you think they do. Indeed, all you've demonstrated is that the old Jedi could balance out armies of Sith, but Palpatine and Plagueis meditating on an island turned the galaxy dark against the whole Jedi Order at the height of its powers. The corruption of the Republic wasn't what caused the shroud of the dark side in the PT, it was the Sith duo following Tenebrous's master singlehandedly piercing the light side bubble created by 10,000 Jedi.
Advantage: Plagueis.
Dude, you grasp onto memes that others use to parody your side (e.g. oneshotting Darth Marr, throwing holocrons) and use them as actual arguments.
Valk's own self talk aside, I see no reason to think Lord Dramath in a holocron is more powerful than Darth Sidious, canonically the most powerful sith lord in history.
Not the point. Usually you need a natural affinity for sorcery to do it properly; Plagueis discovered that he could replicate its effects through sheer willpower, a pretty clear testament to his immense control of the dark side.
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Even if the whole thing has been explained, there is still room for debate. lol
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Being the Chosen One and the offspring isn't the same thing, though.
And the Force let Plagueis and Sidious to bring their shroud over the galaxy in order to fulfill the ancient prophecy.
Yes, it is. Unless there is always a Chosen One for each era.
And they were gone. And the Force didn't do anything about that.
For the last damn time, Plagueis and Sidious didn't cause the Imbalance by themselves, the Force allowed the Imbalance to happen. What is so hard to understand?
Not really. Whenever Jedi and Sith battle on a grand scale(the things they do send echoes through the Force). They also wage an etheric war.
Because the Force allowed it. Obi-Wan Christ.
Wait a moment; when was it specified the number of Jedi? It just said:
"In a sense, the Jedi Order had done the same on a galactic scale, Plagueis believed, by bathing the galaxy in the energy of the light side of the Force; or more accurately by fashioning a Force bubble that had prevented infiltration by the dark side, until Tenebrous's Master had succeeded in bursting the bubble, or at least shrinking it. How the Order's actions could be thought of as balancing the Force had baffled generations of Sith, who harbored no delusions regarding the Force's ability to self-regulate."
-Darth Plagueis
1. Do we know the number of the Jedi during Tenebrous' Master's time?
2. Do we know how much time it took them to create the Force bubble; do we know how much time it took Tenebrous' Master to burst it?
3. The novel doesn't clearly state that Tenebrous' Master completely broke it
From the last line: "How the Order's actions could be thought of as balancing the Force had baffled generations of Sith ,(...)"
This tells one thing. That Tenebrous' Master was not the only one who has burst the Force bubble of the Jedi. This has also happened before. Therefore you cannot attribute this feat only Tenebrous' Master and acclaim Plagueis' superiority.
And at a closer inspection, we can also see that the whole Force bubble conception is solely from Plagueis' perspective(and his belief)
Would you really take it as fact?
No advantage.
Nihilus also ate worlds through sheerwill power.
Control/Mastery of the Force does not translate to being strong in the Force, you know.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 11th, 2018 at 05:01 PM
Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Won't be getting back to this for a while, Az. So on the grounds of not wanting to make you wait a week or more for my response (which is how long it could take) I'm gonna concede the debate to you. I don't agree with you still, but I don't want to waste either of our time either. That said, I enjoyed the conversation,
Jan 10th, 2018 08:27 PM
