Granted, Sidious may have pursued a different line of research than Plagueis (though he claims to have some mastery over midichlorian manipulation as well) but he did things on a far more massive scale than any of the ancient sith could dream of.
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There's zero commentary whatsoever on the feat. It's fully described in a few sentences. It's open to interpretation.
That being said, nothing I said was unreasonable.
- Force-users draw deep within themselves in meditation. - Check.
- Palpatine has greater Force potential than Darth Plagueis. - Check.
- Palpatine likely contributed equally or more than Darth Plagueis. - Check
Everything makes sense.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
I mean it's kind of silly to downplay the Force unbalancing feat because they were meditating while Vitiate does 99% of all of his feats with prep on nexuses via rituals and slaves.
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1: I agree on the first paragraph.
2: It's really not, because no matter what, this was a feat performed over a long period of time, months. Which means both Sidious and Plagueis poured their entirety into it more than once, it would have required constant focus for that period of time, or at least near constant focus. Plagueis would be calling into his own reserves as deeply as Sidious, and the claim that Sidious could have been doing so at a vastly superior rate really isn't supported, Given that Sidious has no real feats putting him "vastly" above Plagueis, even in his DE iteration. Still, even if we assume you're right, like I said before, the feat would have required their combined power multiplied by X amount of times. It's in no way indicative of any personal levels of power, and thus can't (and shouldn't) be used as an indicator of how powerful either Sith was at the time.
The circumstances and context of the ritual/meditation/whatever it is you wanna call it, exclude it from being considered a real feat. I'm not saying it's not impressive at all, I highly doubt very many groupings (let alone duos) of Sith would ever be capable of replicating the feat, but as VS attributable feats go, it's not impressive, imho.
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I'm not saying they performed a classical arcane ritual, but meditating and enforcing their will on the Force is far more ritualistic than it is just a showing of power or strength of will. It's far closer to being ritualistic than it is to be a traditional Force showing.
The fact that Plagueis was resisting Sidious' lightning and healing at a rate faster than Sidious was damaging him disproves the idea that Sidious was more powerful, imo. Of course, I take feats>accolades, not everyone does that.
I don't see why it wouldn't be more difficult. Midichlorian Manipulation doesn't seem like the type of the ability that requires a great level of power to use, just a great level of mastery/control/precision. So of course healing himself at a faster rate than Sidious was harming him would be the more difficult feat.
Even providing it took them months of sustained effort, it's still indicative of a level of power beyond what Valkorion can produce. The implications of the feat as detailed in the first few parts of Az's essay are that these are a pair of Sith beyond anything we've ever seen, a challenge so great that the Force must intervene directly to thwart them.
And the best part is, this meditation against the Force was just the beginning. It was the first prerequisite needed for Plagueis to further dominate the will of the Force, which was when he took the Force's very building blocks, the midi-chlorians, and bend them to his will. Not only did he learn to manipulate them, he learned to kill them and create them. And if you've read Darth Plagueis, you'll note that manipulating midi-chlorians was considered a much greater accomplishment than the meditation. Over the decades since the meditation, as Plagueis' grasp of MM grew, his power multiplied.
Valk has nothing to compare. Short of fighting as a disembodied entity, he has no way to defend the midi-chlorians of his host body, there is nothing he knows that Plagueis doesn't also know, there is no way he can hurt Plagueis, he's slower and a far less skilled fighter, and Plagueis' raw power is also greater, as Az showed with the earthquakes and weather phenomena caused by Plagueis' mere presence well before his prime.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
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1: Not really. All it's indicative of is a level of power that both Sidious and Plagueis can achieve when they pour all their power into a single use of the Force for months on end, which again, multiplies the power used in the ritual exponentially. The individual power usable by either Sith at any given time in a normal circumstance, is VASTLY lower than what was used in the end of the ritual.
2: Learning to manipulate midichlorians is more effective in (possibly) combat, and just in general is more useful. The ability itself isn't an indicator of having greater power than was required for the meditation. It's a greater achievement because it's more useful, nothing more.
3: As Ant said, Valkorion doesn't rely on the midichlorians of his host body, as is plainly evident by the observation that Vitiate's power doesn't seem to fluctuate depending on his host. All his strength is in himself, in his spirit, which is supported by the fact that Valkorion is stated to be an entity. So midichlorian manipulation, more than likely, would have little to no effect on Valkorion. As for knowledge, the ancient Sith and Jedi are confirmed more than once to have access to powers that were lost later down the line, the most famous example being that most of the knowledge Kun possessed was lost upon his death, and (to my knowledge) there is no confirmation that said knowledge was ever recovered.
In response to speed, Valkorion can teleport, speed isn't an issue. More than that, however, augmentation can be roughly estimated by displays of power in the Force, since all augmentation is is pouring more Force power into your physical abilities than anything else. If Valkorion so chose, he could move incredibly fast, he's simply never been in a direct confrontation where that level of speed was necessary. That he lacks speed feats does not mean he lacks speed, the two aren't mutually exclusive.
I don't remember the earthquake feat, but based on the vague sounding nature of it you gave, did Kenobi not create an earthquake at one point? And is Plagueis not vastly superior to Kenobi? So I don't think that means much of anything. His weather feat (which I assume you mean is the Naboo winter) is not that impressive, in fact, it wasn't even Plagueis' presence that caused the winter. The text makes note that the coldest winter in Naboo's history happened the same year Plagueis arrived on the world, but nothing in the text actually implies that Plagueis' presence was the agent that caused it. It can be easily chalked up to happenstance, or simple dramatic effect from a writing standpoint. That said, assuming it was Plagueis' presence that was the cause (which I don't disagree is a valid stance) it's still a planetary feat performed far closer to prime than Vitiate's draining of Ziost, which was performed while he was in a state weak enough to be bested by (I presume) the HoT, a far lower level of power than what Plagueis was at upon his arrival to Naboo. So if a version of Vitiate that was THAT weak, was able to perform a planetary feat, then why would Valkorion, his prime, not be able to do something like that to an exponentially greater scale? If a weakened Vitiate can perform a planet level feat, why is Plagueis' supposed changing of the weather and causing earthquakes more impressive than what Vitiate at his peak should be able to do, based on scaling?
Last edited by darthbane77 on Jan 7th, 2018 at 09:59 PM
Essence Transfer was rare. Bane risked his life to learn it, and the Banites lost it after the Darth Gravid fiasco. And it was later the key to Palpatine's return, such as it was. It was far from a mundane ability.
As far as Dark Transfer, he learned it from Muur, but that's not the issue. He took it much further than even Cade, someone who learned the technique instinctively and had the Skywalker potential. It's directly stated he could even use it to resurrect himself, that's why Cade sent the shuttle containing Krayt's body directly into a sun.
Now let's see what Plagueis can do, when he's "drunk on power" right after he and Sidious tipped the balance of the Force in their favor:
Even with his power and skill at midichlorian manipulation, Plagueis' power of regeneration pales in comparison to Krayt's.
Plagueis would set his whole lab and Palpatine on fire just to have Krayt's Dark Transfer. It's basically the whole reason he started experimenting in the first place. It's what he and Sidious were after. It's what Vader was after. In Dark Lord the Chosen One uses all his power and can't do it for more than a few seconds. Krayt does it casually.
Only a moron like DarthAnt would pretend that any Sith(barring maybe Vitiate and Nihilus) wouldn't chop off their nuts to have that ability.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Even Darth Zash knew the technique. It's rare in the modern era, but not at all to the ancient Sith. Vitiate also spammed the ability non-stop throughout his career.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Jan 7th, 2018 at 10:33 PM
Valk, even with his most grandiose rituals, with the resources of two empires and countless willing minions supporting him, and has never done anything remotely as impressive as bending the will of the Force, even with thousands of years to pull it off. In contrast, vastly pre-prime Plagueis and Sidious pulled it off. As Az pointed out in the blog, Plagueis would go on to become so much more powerful he should be capable of replicating the meditation on his own.
The implications of Plagueis and Sidious' actions being so severe that the Force miraculously conceived a being with power to rival The Father just to stop them, just to "re-balance" the Force. So sorry, but it's just a plain better feat.
There is no question of it's combat effectiveness: destroying midichlorians is "far easier" than creating them, according to Plagueis, and yet, Plagueis could incite his midichlorians to heal damaged tissue, while drunk and ambushed, that he could heal himself faster than Sidious' most powerful lightning could damage him. So, logically, Plagueis, while not drunk and combat-ready, should be able to kill off the midichlorians of damn near anyone who can't defend from it, and just as quickly heal himself.
But as for your criticism, no, it's not a greater achievement because "it's more useful", which isn't said anywhere in the book. It's a greater achievement, and required Plagueis to grow more powerful, because it was plainly more difficult to do than the meditation. Quote:
So do you understand now?
1. The meditation itself is more profound, with farther reaching implications and more impressive than anything Valk has done, even with all of his best rituals.
2. The meditation was less impressive than what proceeded, the resurrection of Venamis which "stunned Sidious into silence", which left Plagueis "drunk on newfound power." Further evidence of his increasing power and mastery was "his own increased midichlorian count."
Plagueis became exponentially more powerful in the 8 years after the meditation, and after that, he still had what is at least 2-5 years of growth before we get to TPM itself. So at minimum a full decade before his prime.
Hence why I said "short of fighting as a disembodied entity." However, if we make a thread, and the goal of the thread is for Valk to keep his physical body alive, Plagueis would surely win.
As Az pointed out, Plagueis was well aware of the ancient's greatest feats, including Essence Transfer, Necromancy, saturation of an entire planet with dark side energy, creating illusions, creating alchemical monstrosities, and as noted in Darth Plagueis, "compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate." He was also aware of weather manipulation, flight, invisibility and teleportation... and you know what Plagueis had to say, in spite of knowing all these abilities exist, in spite of knowing exactly who Exar Kun and Vitiate are, once he went Neo and broke the source code of the Matrix Force? Quote:
And why was he so confident? Because, as echoed by Darth Wyyrlok III centuries later, nothing was outside of Plagueis' grasp once he could exert his will upon on the Force. Not in the mundane sense... in the sense that his will can subvert the will of the Force and tap into the source code, the midichlorians themselves, and alter them. Because Plagueis has essentially hacked the Force itself, there are no abilities he cannot learn.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Just being able to teleport doesn't change the fact that Plagueis is a far better fighter with far better speed feats. Talking about someone who can very easily oneshot a TPM Maul level duelist in a duel. Plagueis is also aware of teleporting, can likely do it himself, and is ultimately unimpressed by it.
Saying augmentation can simply be raised by pouring more power into it is true to an extent, but ultimately, what makes a good lightsaber duelist is the same thing as any other Force power; training. You do not get to neglect training in an area and expect to be great at it. Valk clearly has rudimentary superhuman augmentation like all Force users, but he has no feats to suggest he has mastered it to the same level as Plagueis; far from it, when Plagueis is outclassing people like TPM Maul, who himself has many impressive speed feats, including casual faster-than-eye speeds such that CCTV cameras need to be put into slow motion just to perceive him.
So not only are Plagueis' feats better, and his training far more extensive, but Valk has nothing but a laundry list of embarrassing combat showings, his only vindication being his superior power, an advantage he lacks here.
Kenobi has never created earthquakes, no. You might be referring to the debunked monolith feat which was a TK-chain reaction thing.
It was caused by Plagueis, because it's impossible for a planet of Naboo's climate to suddenly freeze lakes and waterfalls; it's akin to our worlds mediterranean. So his mere presence caused earthquakes that shook underground cities, countries and mountains, and severe collapses in temperature across much of the planet, well before his prime. Though it's fair to note it's not a TK feat and perhaps not good enough proof alone Plagueis > Valk.
Considering Vitiate used a ritual in unknown circumstances to pull off Ziost, as indicated by the codex (Az went over this too) chalking this up to being something Vitiate can do of his own power, let alone while weakened, seems illogical to me. However it seems like an apples and oranges comparison that is unnecessary, when we can safely say that the unbalancing of the Force and domination of midichlorians is proof enough alone that Plagueis is supreme. All the other tidbits are just nice additions or provide further clarification.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
I would have appreciated your effort if you had made a honest case for why Darth Plagueis should be positioned in the TIER of the mightiest but your essay is filled with loopholes and dishonest drivels unfortunately.
Time to stop this nonsense.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 7th, 2018 at 10:53 PM
How can you credit Plagueis alone for unbalancing the Force? Sidious helped him too.
With their might combined and over months; it's no wonder they did it. It was not instant. This is not a reason to say he is superior to Valkorion.
Also, you should ask yourself what does Luceno perceive the Balance and the Unbalancing as?
For him, the Balance=Force=light side and Unbalancing=Corruption=dark side
And you have writers like Drew who believe that the dark and the light side are both a part of the Force. This seems to be the view in most of TOR lore.
And I am pretty sure that the Force has been going througb this cycle of Balance-Imbalance since the Big Bang.
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Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 7th, 2018 at 11:01 PM
Jan 7th, 2018 08:36 PM
