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Thanos Vs Superman, Captain Marvel & Wonder Woman
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RealityWarper
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
Who has recent Superman defeated that puts him on Thanos level? I understand he recently fought future Eradicator to a standstill butbthwt isn't enough.


I think that some posters needs to see some recent scans of Superman fighting...

That will be an helpful refresher.


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Old Post Jan 11th, 2018 05:59 PM
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Philosophía
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
it's because anyone who debates against speed has nothing of substance to stand on. in a forum setting it is inarguable. the only fall back anyone has is to point at comics and say--"look, he's been hit!"

but that argument is faulty at the most basic level--this setting is NOT a comic book so when they point to one as proof of something like flash can be hit by hulk because, well, flash gets hit in comics all the time! it just shows clearly their lack of understanding of the forum.

tbh, i think discussions would be a lot better if the premise we operated under in the forum was "how do you think a fight in a comic would go between (insert characters)?" that way, in a fight like thor vs superman, we wouldn't NEED to add stips to make it a discussion. in a comic, pis is implied. in a comic thor/superman would be (and was) pretty awesome. we wouldn't need to worry about thor being a statue to superman. i've come to realize the forum is a weird place--we are here to debate comic characters, and to do so, we....remove them from the comics? seems kinda backwards to me. so many debates get hung up on pis. i mean people frequently debate whether something is or isn't pis! if it happens all the time is it pis? well, yeah, technically it still is. it's just that writers don't have a logical way around avoiding it if they want to make the books fun and interesting. i mean no matter how many times batman punches reverse flash (as happened not too long ago), it IS pis.

i think from now on, when i make threads, i'm going with the stip that the battle takes place IN a comic book. tell me who would win and how they would win if it were in a comic. i wonder if the discussions would be different from some of this typical nonsense from the usual crowd. /shrug
I honestly do a merger between forum/comic books, most of the time. There's zero fun in just going "he's a statue", and then seeing the other side desperately grasping at straws. Flash-types are the only ones truly broken, since they only have that one power, so you can't discuss the others. How many good Flash threads can you even remember, besides ones where people are trolling? But somebody like Superman, even though he has reached a level where he can literally time-travel by running, you can simply...not mention that, and you can have a reasonable debate. I only use it in a 'can he dodge that attack' type of way, not in a 'the fight hasn't even started from the other fighter's perspective.

I think the forum has reached a reasonable balance between only going high end, or only going for abilities that are cherry picked, to somewhat seeing the overall picture [i.e. how would go in comic books efficiently]. I'm not sure how the rules can be enforced, without removing the jobber/hero auras - which are a huge part of comic storylines. Batman would skyrocket to mid-meta, at least.

Maybe I see it that way because I have like a dozen posters on ignore...lol


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Last edited by Philosophía on Jan 11th, 2018 at 06:12 PM

Old Post Jan 11th, 2018 06:03 PM
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RealityWarper
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I only see excuses for people using speedsters not to accept that they are constantly hit...

Running fast doesn't makes you untouchable.


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Old Post Jan 11th, 2018 06:19 PM
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iceman24567
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol.

In effect, all their arguments boil down to: PIS doesn't exist.

Unless it helps their arguments, of course.
Pretty much thumb up


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Old Post Jan 11th, 2018 09:49 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealityWarper
I only see excuses for people using speedsters not to accept that they are constantly hit...

Running fast doesn't makes you untouchable.
thumb up


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 12:07 AM
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MrMind
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If you want to know the correct answer of the winner in a vs thread, just go with the opposite of whoever RealityWarper and quanchi picks

Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 12:08 AM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by MrMind
If you want to know the correct answer of the winner in a vs thread, just go with the opposite of whoever RealityWarper and quanchi picks
I debate based off the evidence not who I like more. I am most wise.


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 12:11 AM
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TheHulkster
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's PIS.

And before insults are hurled, I just want to explore this debate calmly.

If one side is faster than the other.....why wouldn't they perceive the other pretty much standing still?

Imagine you're playing a game like Street Fighter...but your opponent has extreme lag. You could pull combos off, dodge, jump, punch, whatever.... before they had even loaded the game up.

And that's in 2D.

Now you might argue 'but we're not in control of these characters!', and you'd be right.

So imagine a complete noob. Someone who has no idea how to pull exotic 35 hit combos off. With their speed advantage, they'd still be able to punch and kick and do basic fighting,no? And crucially, be a lesson to block your attacks and jump. And they'd still win.

It's why games are balanced, so you don't have a super fast character who also deals a ton of damage and also has easy combos. Otherwise that character autowins.


So those three do the same to Darkseid right?

Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 12:17 AM
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RealityWarper
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
I debate based off the evidence not who I like more. I am most wise.


Same.


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 12:34 AM
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TheHulkster
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
it's because anyone who debates against speed has nothing of substance to stand on. in a forum setting it is inarguable. the only fall back anyone has is to point at comics and say--"look, he's been hit!"

but that argument is faulty at the most basic level--this setting is NOT a comic book so when they point to one as proof of something like flash can be hit by hulk because, well, flash gets hit in comics all the time! it just shows clearly their lack of understanding of the forum.

tbh, i think discussions would be a lot better if the premise we operated under in the forum was "how do you think a fight in a comic would go between (insert characters)?" that way, in a fight like thor vs superman, we wouldn't NEED to add stips to make it a discussion. in a comic, pis is implied. in a comic thor/superman would be (and was) pretty awesome. we wouldn't need to worry about thor being a statue to superman. i've come to realize the forum is a weird place--we are here to debate comic characters, and to do so, we....remove them from the comics? seems kinda backwards to me. so many debates get hung up on pis. i mean people frequently debate whether something is or isn't pis! if it happens all the time is it pis? well, yeah, technically it still is. it's just that writers don't have a logical way around avoiding it if they want to make the books fun and interesting. i mean no matter how many times batman punches reverse flash (as happened not too long ago), it IS pis.

i think from now on, when i make threads, i'm going with the stip that the battle takes place IN a comic book. tell me who would win and how they would win if it were in a comic. i wonder if the discussions would be different from some of this typical nonsense from the usual crowd. /shrug


The official, canon characters that we discuss don’t reside on this or any forum nor can they visit it. They reside in the comics. The forum discusses those characters. It should actually be the opposite of what you say. The default should be that we are discussing the characters based on how they are portrayed in the comics where they officially and canonically reside.

Respect threads are based on what happens in the comics. Characters’ powers and abilities are established in the comics. We know that Karate Kid can handle up on metas because we see him do it in comics. These are not battle board characters. These are comic book characters that are discussed on battle boards.

If I argue that Thor’s ability to fly at warp speeds and do so while being able to react to objects means that he would never be a statue, the same statue arguing folks would argue against this. For Hulk to be able to jump out of the atmosphere, his legs would have to contract at superspeeds which would mean that he should be able to run at superspeeds. Damn what is shown in comics. Silver Surfer should never get hit due to his forcefields, intangibility, lightspeed traveling reaction speed, etc.

The superspeed argument is based on laziness in my opinion. It’s a cop-out so that some fans don’t have to actually present a legitimate argument. And the way I see it, PIS is a happening that is outrageously out of the norm. Characters with superspeed getting hit regularly is overwhelming the norm.

Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 12:56 AM
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xJLxKing
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Super speed is laziness?

Yet shit like “ Silver Surfer creating a black hole in someone’s brain” is what? Creativity?

No! Super speed arguments aren’t lazy. They are just like strength or durability. You seem to be able to grasp the huge strength gap between Hulk and Deadpool hut you can’t to acknowledge that a gap between someone like flash and Deadpool.

Like someone has posted in other topics already, characters are subject to PIS and CIS. No, you’ll never see Flash using his full speed all the time despite the fact that he can. Let’s not forget Barry was technically out running Death since COIE (20+Years). It would destroy the point of comics, story, or a huge portion relating to publishing.


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 01:21 AM
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tkitna
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Thanos wins and it would be glorious to watch.


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 01:38 AM
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leonidas
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quote:
The official, canon characters that we discuss don’t reside on this or any forum nor can they visit it. They reside in the comics. The forum discusses those characters. It should actually be the opposite of what you say. The default should be that we are discussing the characters based on how they are portrayed in the comics where they officially and canonically reside.


i said i think discussions would be a lot better if the premise we operated under in the forum was "how do you think a fight in a comic would go between (insert characters)?"

you said: The default should be that we are discussing the characters based on how they are portrayed in the comics

confused

we expressed nearly identical overall sentiments.

quote:
Respect threads are based on what happens in the comics. Characters’ powers and abilities are established in the comics. We know that Karate Kid can handle up on metas because we see him do it in comics. These are not battle board characters. These are comic book characters that are discussed on battle boards.


well....of course they are? but in some cases, the way they are portrayed runs counter to common sense or logic, why? because it makes the story better. and sure karate kid has some great showings--but what about when someone brings up some of his poor showings? there is no way to logically argue the disparity in performances, why? because the disparity exists for the purpose of the story.

quote:
If I argue that Thor’s ability to fly at warp speeds and do so while being able to react to objects means that he would never be a statue, the same statue arguing folks would argue against this.


of course they would. in a comic book, thor would never be a statue in a fight against superman, despite the fact that thor has shown has to be unable to react to guys like mongoose, spiderman or wolverine, let alone guys with superman-level speed. can a guy capable of navigating at warp speeds (assuming it's not always been the hammer leading him) somehow be made to be slow in comparison to guys like that? again, not something that can be rationalized. pis isn't a one way street--it's a huge multi-lane highway. one persons low ball is another person's pis. likewise with high balling.

quote:
For Hulk to be able to jump out of the atmosphere, his legs would have to contract at superspeeds which would mean that he should be able to run at superspeeds. Damn what is shown in comics. Silver Surfer should never get hit due to his forcefields, intangibility, lightspeed traveling reaction speed, etc.


you sound like you're accusing me of saying ss should never be hit. it is a forum rule that characters are used to the best of their abilities, that pis and cis are ruled out. if superman (i use him because he is always the catalyst for these types of arguments) can move, think and react in attosecond increments, and he's shown to be a genius, what logical reason is there for him to stand still and ever, ever get hit by someone like the hulk outside of a comic book? because he gets hit INSIDE a comic book? that isn't a good enough reason in a forum setting. and that's not MY idea--that is the PURPOSE of the forum. so to assume he DOES get hit, people need to make excuses for how that is possible, when, in reality, there IS no reason, because the comic book setting which makes his getting hit possible has been removed.

quote:
The superspeed argument is based on laziness in my opinion. It’s a cop-out so that some fans don’t have to actually present a legitimate argument. And the way I see it, PIS is a happening that is outrageously out of the norm. Characters with superspeed getting hit regularly is overwhelming the norm.


in a comic? sure. but even that is mitigated in the case of guys like flash. what, it's a coincidence that flash's rogue's gallery is literally littered with speedster enemies? why don't guys like batman have guys like zoom for regular enemies?
probably wouldn't be much fun to have batman die in the first femtosecond of the fight, less fun trying to come up with reasons (as the writer) for how he WOULDN'T die. but we just saw bats take on thawne for a bit. does that elevate bats to flash speeds? or does thawne drop to bats's level? looking at the feats (as portrayed in the comics you cited at the start of your post) batman should have been that statue you also mentioned. but he wasn't. again, why? because it made for a pretty cool fight--least imo. but i can suspend disbelief for purposes of a good story. the forum removes my need to suspend that disbelief.

whew--that was long winded--don't blame if you didn't read. in the end, i actually think we're on the same side here though.....


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 01:53 AM
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-Pr-
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The general idea, as I've always seen it, is that we debate how characters would behave in a fight in a comic if they weren't hampered by the necessities of the plot.

They don't lose their personality; they're just not handicapped either unless they're idiots.


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 01:56 AM
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Damborgson
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So how would you say we handle Superman? He should be for all inentions and purposes, still untouchable.


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 02:11 AM
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RealityWarper
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
So how would you say we handle Superman? He should be for all inentions and purposes, still untouchable.


Sure, Usain Bolt is untouchable too because he runs faster than Mike Tyson...

Oh wait ! That makes no sense ! big grin


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 02:18 AM
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Damborgson
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Sure, Usain Bolt is untouchable too because he runs faster than Mike Tyson...

Oh wait ! That makes no sense ! big grin


They day Usain Bolt sees the world like this:

(please log in to view the image)

We'll call that a fair point.


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 02:28 AM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
So how would you say we handle Superman? He should be for all inentions and purposes, still untouchable.


By sticking to his personality. Superman is notorious for fighting at his opponent's level unless he has a reason not to. It's a steady escalation until he either wins, or gets beaten.


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 02:32 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
By sticking to his personality. Superman is notorious for fighting at his opponent's level unless he has a reason not to. It's a steady escalation until he either wins, or gets beaten.


thumb up

Works for me.


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 02:33 AM
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LordofBrooklyn
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Fights should go the way I say they would go.

Follow this standard and you will NEVER go wrong!!!


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Old Post Jan 12th, 2018 02:37 AM
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