Arcann was dominating the Pre-amp Outlander with the Force and all of the Force using classes are more powerful than Maul is. AP is right that its arguable whether Maul even compares to Act 3 Wrath. I couldn't see Maul replicating his Sel-Makor feat for instance. He'd get destroyed.
They just have better feats and scaling. At the start of the game, just after becoming a Jedi the Barsen'thor crumples a 2 story tall, meter thick blast door like paper with a casual 1 hand force blast, while weakened. Shortly before that they throw a bus sized chunk of metal over a hundred feet easily. The feats get better from there. Nox was among the strongest Sith alive on personal merit alone and could further amplify their power with the combined power of 5 Force Ghosts. They were literally backhanding Thanatons lightning like it was nothing. The Hero beat a Vitiate who could demolish the Dark Temple after losing their fight. Etc.
Ant made a pretty detailed respect thread. The specific feat I referenced was the Wrath defeating a darkside God (literally, its the personification Voss' darkside and had enough power to wipe out the planet properly channeled) in the heart of its power after it had possessed Vitiates avatar.
The prime example being 'Thor fighting through an entire capital ship of troops, a number of which were alchemically enhanced, and tanking an explosion that disintegrated a blast door all while highly weakened from repeatedly using a technique that killed previous users and then defeating an ancient Sith Lord who was siphoning power from hundreds of the strongest Jedi Masters.
Nope. If you kill him Syo calls you up and tells you hundreds of Jedi Masters just died for no reason. Also Vivicar tells you that he can draw strength from all of them as the reason why you're too late and can't possibly defeat him. I just checked though and he says that he performed the ritual "before you even stepped aboard".
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Last edited by Nephthys on Jan 24th, 2018 at 02:27 AM
Interesting. I'm too lazy to check ATM, but are there alternative versions of the fight like the Vitiate vs Hero fight? I know there's some dialogue indicating the ritual had yet to begin.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
He does indicate that it takes time to fully siphon the power, saying that soon he'll become the strongest guy everer, but that doesn't contradict him stating that he started it before you arrived. I think thats what you're thinking of.
He definitely already did it though, otherwise the dialogue wouldn't make any sense at all.
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Last edited by Nephthys on Jan 24th, 2018 at 02:33 AM
I fail to see how this provides superior scaling. Take a look at the size of a conquerer-class Dreadnought. It dwarves starfighters (1st link), just the smaller bottom half (note the colour difference) of it makes Anakin look tiny (2nd link) and Obi-Wan’s starfighter is only a little bit bigger than one of the five cannons on the roof of the dreadnought, meaning the dreadnought could fit dozens of the same starfighter inside it’s mass (3rd link). Considering it’s a battlestation housing dozens of weapon systems for laser cannons, I’m doubtful it’s hollow on the inside.
So this makes it significantly larger, thicker and heavier than the blast door you’re referring to.
As you’re likely aware, Anakin a mere 5 months after Attack of the Clones (22BBY) was able to telekinetically throw the dreadnought into the path of speeding missiles, missiles being pretty fast. (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
And yet, Anakin at this point in time had clearly not surpassed Ventress or Obi-Wan. Ventress took him and Ahsoka on at the same time, and pinned him to a wall with telekinesis, him only avoiding death because Ahsoka jumped Ventress. (22BBY)
--The Clone Wars junior novelization
In the very same book, Ventress runs away from Obi-Wan because she notes that he’s even stronger than Anakin. (22BBY)
--The Clone Wars junior novelization
Obi-Wan, in this encounter with Ventress, wasn’t even trying to defeat her. He was just stalling her so Anakin could retreat with the child Ventress was trying to kidnap. And yet, he got the better of her for the most part, taunted her, and even cracked her bones with a Force push. (22BBY)
--The Clone Wars novelization
--The Clone Wars junior novelization
Want more proof Anakin was pretty low on the totem pole at this point? 5 months after his dreadnought feat, he was Force choked into unconsciousness by one of Dooku’s dark Jedi mooks, a nightsister called Saato, who is by any objective standard weaker than Ventress, Sora Bulq, likely Vos and so on. (22BBY) (please log in to view the image) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtX....be&t=3m17s (please log in to view the image)
And again, Anakin is blasted with TK leaving him incapacitated long enough for Trenox a “dark acolyte” to leave the room and run away. (22BBY) (please log in to view the image) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nuy....be&t=6m53s
In a source that mentions both of these acolytes, it’s said Ventress is “perhaps Tyranus’ most powerful student,” and I think that is fairly self-evident anyway. (please log in to view the image)
I presume you can see where this is going. Maul, very casually, Force choked Obi-Wan and left him too incapacitated to defend himself. Indeed, he muses he could have killed him then and there, indicating a massive disparity in power. This also took place two years after everything mentioned above, meaning two years of rapid power growth for Obi-Wan. Ouch. (20BBY) https://imgur.com/a/SfMfX
Maul at this time was merely restored to his former power. He was only just getting back in the swing of things after being left in exile for 12 years. So TPM Maul is capable of dominating Obi-Wan with the Force.
―The Clone Wars: The Sith Hunters
Let’s now add insult to injury by pointing out that he would continue to grow over the course of TCW. Savage notes he has “grown so powerful” since his choking out of Kenobi, and Maul continues to grow for the year between 20BBY and 19BBY, up until he fights Sidious.
―Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy
--Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
So clearly there is a massive disparity in power between TCW Maul and padawan Anakin, whose feats appear far more impressive than those you have listed.
You’ll need to elaborate on why this provides “better feats and scaling” than what I’ve described above.
Can you elaborate on the damage done to the temple by referring to evidence? We see individual stalactites begin to fall and that’s it. Per scaling it’s something padawan Anakin could do in his sleep.
Can you show me the part where this Sel-Makor possessed Vitiate avatar had “enough power to wipe out the planet”? I’m aware Vitiate possesses his avatars and fights through them, and that he lost control of this one in particular to Sel-Makor, but that doesn’t exactly tell me much.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
To reinforce ILS' point, Anakin also has this feat in 21BBY, only a short while after he gets his shit kicked in by Saato and Trenox:
The next storm-shield generator overloaded just as Anakin reached it. He had a split second's warning, one hammer blow from the Force. The storm seemed to hold its breath...
...and then exhaled in renewed fury as the generator erupted in a burning light show of sparks. With a scream like a wounded animal the shield directly overhead collapsed and a maelstrom of theta particles poured through the gap.
He acted on instinct-and out of sheer bloody-minded terror. Throwing up his hands he used the Force to hold back the stream of theta particles, and with a shout of rage became one with the storm shield. Rejected the storm. He thought he could feel his blood bubbling. He was losing himself, disappearing within the scarlet vortex of the Force as it consumed him and transformed him into fire.
And there was his mother, whispering again. He can help yon. He was meant to help yon. Furious, Anakin stood alone against the storm.
"It was the most awful thing I've ever seen, " Qui-Gon had told him, so many years ago. "Theta storms kill in two ways, you see. If you're contaminated from a distance, well, it takes a long time to die. But if you are in the storm's path it trill rip you to pieces and then melt your bones. I've seen it kill both ways, and both ways arc cruel. Better to be swallowed alive by a sarlacc. "
Anakin felt the explosion heartbeats before it happened. Sweating and trembling with the effort of holding back the theta storm, ignoring the villagers who'd come to see what was going on, he tried to send Obi-Wan a warning-but his mind was so bludgeoned by the quicksilver torment of keeping the raging storm at bay that he couldn't feel his former Master's presence.
And then the refinery went up like Coruscant fireworks on Republic Day.
Screams and shouts sounded as panic surged through the Force, bright and white and stunning. Vision smearing and blearing, Anakin sought in the crowd for Teeba Jaklin. She'd come from the charter house to see what the fuss was about and remained because she couldn't believe her own eyes.
"Jaklin! Teeba Jaklin!"
She pushed and shoved and swore her way to him through the jostling villagers who pointed and gasped and were beginning to break for the refinery.
"Yes, Markl?" She scowled. "If that's even your name. "
"It's my name at the moment, " he said, his teeth gritted against the relentless pain of the storm. "Teeba Jaklin, please. Find Yavid for me. Make sure he's all right. "
The explosion's echoes rolled around the village, trapped beneath the barely holding shield. The red stormglow beyond it was matched by the red glow of leaping flames. The refinery was burning. He and Jaklin stared at each other as the rest of Torbel's people ran to help, shadows in the glare of the storm. Some headed for the artesian well, for water. Others made straight for the burning building full of raw damotite.
A chilling thought struck him. Was the mineral itself flammable? That smoke-was it a toxic cloud poised to poison every last man, woman, and child beneath the storm shield?
"Teeba Jaklin! Is there danger from the..."
Her eyes were full of fear. "Yes. Not drop-dead-on-the-spot trouble but even with our secret protection we'll all of us be sickly in the next few days. " She looked up at the thrashing theta storm over their heads. "Unless that clears quick soon and we can down the shields so the smoke gets to blow clean away. "
"Which..." He had to pause, to rebalance himself. The effort of fighting the storm was threatening to drive him to his knees. He'd started to breathe in harsh gasping pants. "Which is-worse? The theta particles-or the damotite-smoke?"
The question made her laugh grimly. "The storm-unless it don't clear and we're left breathing smoke for hours on end. Then we'll be likely done for whichever way you slice the bread. "
Of course they would be. The universe had a stinking sense of humor.
"You need-to find Yavid, " he gasped. "If he's-not hurt he-can help you. "
The look on her face said she thought they were all beyond help. "I'll look for him. How much longer before you fail, Teeb?"
He didn't know. He didn't want to think about that. "I'm- all right. Go. Please. " Another deep, shuddering breath. "Find Yavid. "
They were alone now, save for the men working on the shield generator. Jaklin turned away from him. "Guyne! How soon before that generator's fixed?"
The oldest of the four feverishly tinkering men spared her a glance. "Going as fast as we can, Jaklin. Half the circuits are burned out. "
Anakin tightened his hold on the Force, feeling the seethe and surge of the storm like living fire. "I can-hold on, Teeba. Don't-worry-about me. Just go. Co!"
Half step by half step, Jaklin retreated. In the garish light her eyes were narrowed. A muscle worked along her jaw. "I know what you are, young Teeb. You're..."
"Not-now, " he said, almost groaning. "Please. Find Yavid. Tell him-I'll get there-soon as-I can. "
Instead of answering, she turned to look at Guyne one last time. "Could he our lives are with you now, old Teeb, " she said, her voice cracking. "Don't you be letting us down. "
His teeth showed briefly in his thin, seamed face. "Not planning to, old Teeba. Get on now. Rikkard'll have need of you. "
Anakin took another rib-cracking breath. "Teeba..."
"I know, " she snapped, retreating. "Yavid. I said I'd look, and I will. I'm an honest one-even if you aren't. "
She broke into a flat-footed run. He watched her for a few short, uneven strides, feeling Guyne's measured stare.
Don't look at me, old man. Fix that generator, would you?
Anakin hurt so much now it would be easy just to... give in. Give up. Let go. But he couldn't do that. Hundreds of lives were depending on him. He had to stand here and take it until the generator was fixed-or his heart gave out. So he closed his eyes. Whether it made sense or not he always found it easier to focus his will when cocooned in darkness.
With sight denied him all his other senses leapt to keener life. The stink of the shield generator's scorched circuitry. The stink of burning damotite from the exploded refinery. The stink of his own sweat. He heard-felt-three more explosions. Smaller this time, in swift succession. There were shouts, sirens. Sounds and echoes drumming. The worst of the Force's insistent warning had faded, leaving him scoured hollow and stunned. Now all he felt in the Force was confusion, fear and pain. Everything he usually felt, no matter where he was. It was terrible and yet, in the strangest way, also comforting. He knew how to deal with that.
It was the unknown that made him nervous.
How long had he been standing here, holding back the storm? Probably less than an hour. It felt like days. Years. He didn't have much time before the choice of whether to let go or endure would be out of his hands. Even the Chosen One had limits.
He remembered himself as a small boy, boasting to Qui-Gon at his mother's rough table.
Has anyone ever seen a Podrace? I'm the only human who can do it.
And now he was probably the only Jedi who could turn himself into a living storm shield.
It isn't boasting. It's the truth. I've got a knack for beating the odds.
Now all he had to do was beat these odds for just a little bit longer...
Sweat pouring, heart pounding, dimly aware that he was burning himself out, Anakin clung to the Force like a child to its mothers hand. Time passed. He passed with it, in silence.
"All right, " said Giuyne at last. "I think that's got it. Teeb Markl..."
Stirring, he opened his eyes. "Teeb?"
"We're going to try the generator. Get ready. "
He managed to nod.
The other three men stepped back from the generator as Guyne, sore and sorry and tired, took a deep breath and reconnected the power supply. He flipped a series of switches, waited-waited-then activated the shield.
With a sizzling hum the storm shield came back online. Guyne and his three friends cheered, tiredly ecstatic... and Anakin slumped, falling boneless and graceless to the hard, dry ground.
Master. "I know you couldn't. I'm not angry. If anything, I'm astonished. Anakin, what you managed..." Obi-Wan shook his head. "I'm not certain that Yoda himself could've held this wretched storm back the way you did, for as long as you did. You saved the village. "
Clone Wars Gambit: Siege
Tanking a theta storm that can melt bones for an hour? Anakin is up to the task. Compare that to Arcann not lasting a minute against a lightning storm that could only kill not even disintegrate like the theta storm.
Arcann dies horribly against Padawan Anakin. Pitting him against Maul is the very definition of mismatch.
Nice post from ILS. Pretty sure blind feat scaling wars won't go well for the TOR crew.
It helps the Obi-Wan comparison that in the TCW novel itself, Anakin is pushing AT-TE's with enough power that the impact possesses the kinetic force of a bomb going off:
The "bus-sized" metal block feat pales in comparison.
Last edited by SunRazer on Jan 24th, 2018 at 10:18 AM
Also, that's a single bolt of lightning that melts bones, meanwhile Anakin was exhausted and shielded a considerable part of a village from a storm... The feat sh!ts on Arcann's by all accounts.
KMC is broken and I can't quote you properly, so for the sake of brevity:
Your entire opening point with regards to Anakin is based on the extremely exaggerated material related to the old CW cartoon. It's well out of sync with his standard showings and completely worthless to me. Build your house on concrete instead of sand next time. I appreciate how much effort you put into it though.
The fact that Nox by themselves was noted as perhaps the strongest Sith in generations, easily capable of overcoming one of the greatest Sith Sorcerers in the Empires history and was able to casually backhand Thanatons extremely potent lightning (judging from 1-shotting a tarentatek 40 years prior with it) when even deflecting it is noted to be "almost impossible" and then can further amplify their power with the combined total of 5 other powerful Force Spirits. Maul doesn't compare.
You know perfectly well that I cannot do that. Vitiate is stated to be collapsing the temple and we see it collapsing. That is good enough for me and not for you.
The Jedi Knights storyline on Voss is about a Sith travelling to Sel-Makor so that he can draw on its power to magnify his Force Insanity ability into a planet-wide wave of violent madness. And I'm not sure what you're having trouble with here. Sel-Makor is a godlike entity who could have doomed the galaxy had he escaped Voss, in possession of Vitiates Voice in the center of his Dark Heart, a place so corrupt and powerfully darksided that even the most powerful of Sith turns to gibbering madness in its proximity.