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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » SUPER FIGHT II - Darth Vader (The Ellimist) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)


SUPER FIGHT II - Darth Vader (The Ellimist) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

After this reply, the groundwork for Vader’s superiority in this fight should be made clear: Vader is better through pretty much every line of analysis, from scaling purely off of accolades to scaling off of environmental feats that Ant didn’t feel like responding to.

Response: “In Williams We Trust”

quote:
The Force Unleashed and The Force Unleashed II novelizations overrule their respective video game counterparts in any and all discrepancies. It is stated that The Force Unleashed novelization is the “one true canon path.” Therefore, events in the video games that do not take place in the novelizations are not of “the one true canon path” and, therefore, non-canon. For example, Starkiller flying alongside the Salvation as it crashes into Timira City (from the video game) is invalidated by Starkiller destroying the Nebulon-B frigate before it hits (from the novelization).


Except that the starwars.com article (which is about TFU I, not TFU II) was published in 2007, and hence uses the old EU canon policy. That canon policy is not the one we agreed to use. Whereas the old EU canon combines the films and the EU into a tiered system (e.g. G canon, T canon, etc.), we are, by mutual agreement, using a ficticious “Legends” policy by which the movies and half of TCW aren’t considered canon.

The difference is massive. The old official policy ran everything through the movies – every declaration on which source overrules another would primarily focus on whether it adhered to the vision of G-canon such as the theatrical films, because the policy weighted the films far above any other source material. We, meanwhile, have made once the most important source material not even exist in the debate. So it’s possible that the starwars.com article’s authors decided that the TFU novelization better adhered to the vision of the movies for whatever reason – but when we talk movie events in the debate, we look at Legends materials like the novelizations, many of which depict the Force even more “outlandishly” than TFU (e.g. Stover).

Disney doesn’t recognize any sort of Legends continuity and so asking it about meta is pointless. All Legends is now on equal footing – if you want to argue one source material outweighs another, you must make your own case rather than employing fiat.

(P.S. I know this mitigates the impact of Chee’s endorsement of the ICS’s, but that’s minor.)

quote:

To emphasize the point, The Force Unleashed II video game features two different kinds of cutscenes: real-time cutscenes and pre-rendered/cinematic cutscenes. All real-time cutscenes are contradicted by the novelization (e.g. Starkiller never uses the Fusion Accelerator Cannon to destroy a Star Destroyer in the novelization; he never leaves the bridge during the battle), but all pre-rendered/cinematic cutscenes closely align with the novelization. This suggests an awareness by game developers about which parts of the video game is canon and which parts are not (i.e. the cinematic, high-quality cutscenes that align with the novelization are canon, but the low-graphics, real-time cutscenes are not). Further, the real-time cutscenes and pre-rendered/cinematic cutscenes are not reconcilable to one another. For example, when Starkiller defeats Darth Vader, the destruction (e.g. destroyed electrical towers) and environment (e.g. weather, placement of characters, and background) between the real-time cutscenes and pre-rendered/cinematic cutscenes are completely different (click for reference - to 1:16:57). For example, the electrical towers that Starkiller uses to throw and electrocute Darth Vader are absent from the pre-rendered/cinematic cutscenes. As aforementioned, this is because the pre-rendered/cinematic cutscenes are generally consistent with the novelization and not the non-canon events, gameplay, and real-time cutscenes of the video game.


Some of these claims are flatout wrong (there are electrical towers in the cutscenes…

(please log in to view the image)

and a few other factual mistakes like your claim about the weather), but let me continue from before. Even if we for some reason accept an article’s statement about a canon policy we aren’t even using in this debate, “one true canon path” does not mean that other TFU material isn’t legit, but rather that the novelizations would overrule in cases of explicit contradiction. You seem to agree, but to drive the point home if 30% of the video game is contradicted by the novelization then it’s only 70% true and thus wouldn’t be described as the “one true canon path” – but that doesn’t mean what isn’t contradicted is fake. We know that Chee thinks video games are canon:

https://static.comicvine.com/upload...ount_id%25253D1

(It’s not just a random tweet either – this was on record as the canon policy re: video games)

Likewise, take a look at your own quote:

The game casts players as Darth Vader's "Secret Apprentice" and the storyline promises to unveil new revelations about the Star Wars galaxy.

If none of the game was canon, how could it possibly have revelations about the Star Wars galaxy? You might say “well some of it aligns with the novelization”, but if the video games can’t provide valid information that isn’t already in the novel, then it’s redundant and thus would not be revealing anything. That it does reveal things suggests that it does act as a valid source of independent info, just a lower priority one.

But, again, it’s irrelevant because we aren’t using that canon policy.

I think it’s pretty clear that you’re trying to dismiss the source material for a reason – we both know that the existence of the two TFU games makes your case very difficult to argue, because it gives Vader scaling for environmental feats beyond anything Revan could hope to match – that’s why you deleted that part about Galen’s environmental feats from your reply, isn’t it?

Response: Galen’s suicide blast

quote:

I wonder why you left out the passage directly beforehand:

When Darth Vader runs into the room, Starkiller immediately unleashes the explosion. A point at the outer edge of the explosion contains a fraction of the power initially released, so you cannot quantify this for Darth Vader and state his Force shields are capable of resisting the full force of the assault. In reality, he only resists a small portion of the blast and still sustains injuries. Also, it is clear this is not indication Darth Vader can resist Starkiller’s Force attacks when the same Vader just got telekinetically dominated by Starkiller shortly beforehand.


Nonsense. You just inserted the word “immediately” – nowhere does it say that. In the cutscene Vader also comes limping in with the Stormtroopers, and Galen Marek also screams “no!” – there are things that happen in-between but omission is not contradiction. Novels have never been expected to provide every last piece of continuous information in the story, in either Star Wars or literature in general,.

So given that no contradiction exists, let’s look at how close Vader is standing:

(please log in to view the image)

Yep, that’s point blank range.

Galen Marek is advancing on Sidious’s lightning. Guess who couldn’t do that? Yoda. And I demonstrated in my opener that Sidious couldn’t have been holding back. Given that Galen is doing something to Sidious that nobody in Legends has ever done, it’s very possible that he is (temporarily) operating at a higher level than any “normal” Force user except for perhaps Sidious had to that point in galactic history.

But then Galen, as stated earlier, gets even more powerful in his final attack:

Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child.

And Vader tanks it.

Being above Yoda isn’t enough to put Vader down with a suicide blast. It’s game over for Revan.

quote:
The potency of the explosion is also commonly exaggerated. It is not powerful enough to make the Death Star appear damaged from space (click for reference). Rather, the blast causes a chain reaction: "Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions.”


I never said that, but OK.

Now – why haven’t you taken up my challenge to match environmental feats? You can’t even claim that your points about Starkiller’s relative power to Vader serve as adequate because, as I pointed out to you, many of these feats come from early-game Galen Marek, before he was even close to Vader’s power. You seem to realize that Revan can’t win that battle.

(continued below)


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Last edited by The Ellimist on Feb 22nd, 2018 at 02:45 AM

Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 02:42 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

(continued from above)

Response: Oneshotting a star destroyer

quote:
This feat falls under both rebuttals made in my first post: due to Starkiller’s exhaustion when fighting Darth Vader, nothing can be extrapolated to gather anything meaningful for Vader, and the entire event is irreconcilably contradicted by The Force Unleashed II novelization regardless. The text states Starkiller never leaves the bridge during the space battle of Kamino. Instead, Rahm Kota orders him to operate a turbolaser by remote for its entirety. In contrast, in The Force Unleashed II video game, Starkiller goes off to fight Imperial boarding forces and operates the cannon, then returns to the bridge toward the end of the battle. Thus, the event is non-canon.


In addition to the aforementioned rebuttals, you are incorrect in claiming a contradiction exists. Kota does tell Starkiller to stay behind, but later Starkiller goes to the bridge:

Starkiller restored control of the turbolaser to the crew and went to join Kota. An idea was forming in his mind-an idea that ought to be crazy but might, he thought, barely be crazy enough to work.

We don’t know what happens on the way to the bridge, so that Starkiller initially mans the guns and that he powers the cannon aren’t mutually exclusive.

Does Starkiller power the cannon?

There are three smoking guns here.

First smoking gun: Kota’s dialogue with Starkiller. When Kota notes the gun is offline from a “direct hit” and asks Starkiller what he can do, Starkiller says “do I look like an engineer to you?”

Does that sound like someone who understands the intricacies of this prototype superweapon’s “tertiary cooling” system that you allege he somehow managed to “fine tune” by blindly shooting lightning at it? Kota then says “I don’t care if you have to power that thing by hand!”

…and then right when Kota says that, Starkiller fires a bunch of lightning at the coils and then telekinetically pushes the gun’s barrel…by hand. Starkiller obviously didn’t spend the few hours he had on the Salvation learning the technical specifications of this prototype fusion accelerator cannon so that he could go there and rewire the power couplings in the case an ion cannon hit it (or else he wouldn’t act so unsure). Rather, he needs to power up the cannon so just dumps a huge amount of energy on it. That’s the more parsimonious explanation given the facts at hand.


Second smoking gun: the cannon clearly fires Starkiller’s Force lightning:

(please log in to view the image)

Right before that, we see Starkiller draining his own lightning from the coils and then physically pushing it into the cannon, suggesting he uses the coils merely as capacitors and not as actual fuel sources (which wouldn’t make sense in the first place since coils…aren’t fuel sources).

We see the cannon fire earlier and it looks completely different (and far weaker) – given that we’ve established above and will establish a bit later that Starkiller could not have done the necessary configurations to make it a superweapon, the only explanation is that it’s firing his energy.

I mean, look at the shocking coincidence: he comes and dumps a bunch of lightning on some coils that seem to conduct to the cannon barrel…and then the barrel this time happens to fire lightning that looks exactly like Starkiller’s. Meanwhile, we’ve never seen any weapon in Star Wars look like that before.

Third smoking gun: the cannon on Starkiller’s powering is orders of magnitude more powerful than it is operating normally, given that it normally did nothing to the ISD. You try to explain this by saying he rewired it, but as we’ve demonstrated that is implausible, it doesn’t make sense to conclude that he merely jump-started the process if jump-starting it would only produce like 0.1% of the energy we see. So even if Starkiller jump starts the process, he’s still responsible for 99.9% of the energy.

quote:
Under normal conditions, the Fusion Accelerator Cannon is relatively weak and cannot penetrate a Star Destroyer's shields (click for reference). However, as noted in the Databanks, altering the cannon by "re-routing the primary power couplings" produces superweapon-esque capabilities. It is evident that the Databanks stating the cannon can be altered to produce far more potent results, and Starkiller’s actions resembling said alterations, is not a coincidence. By applying Force lightning to the “coils” directly, the flow of energy is visibly irregular and likely constitutes as the “re-routing” of the “primary power couplings” (click for reference) needed to convert it to superweapon mode. Further, as I detail below, Starkiller’s energy reactivates - not directly powers - the cannon’s systems, as consistently portrayed across all mediums portraying the event.


In addition to the rebuttals given above, take a look at the quote more carefully. Starkiller visibly doesn’t “tune” or provide “tertiary cooling” to anything, nor would he have had time to learn how to do so.

But, even if he did, a rewiring of the coils doesn’t change the minimum energy requirements the first law of thermodynamics tells us he needed to produce the destructive results – Starkiller would still have to supply the energy that oneshots the star destroyer, with any more efficient configurations merely improving its efficiency which is irrelevant because my argument deals with the lower limits anyway.

quote:
1.) While The Force Unleashed II Prima Guide notes that Starkiller “powers” the cannon, you neglect to mention that it uses the terms “activate” and “power” interchangeably. Both words are used to describe Starkiller reactivating turbolasers with Force lightning: "There are several more turbo lasers in this room... Approach the third one and use Force Lightning to activate it and fire on the Star Destroyer some more… After firing at the Star Destroyer, use Force Grip to yank out the fuse from the turbo laser mechanism. Move the fuse into place on the floor nearby and power it up.” Therefore, your argument that the terminology of “powers” means he definitely did not activate it is wrong.


No, because here the text explicitly notes the “fuse” that is responsible for powering up the turbolaser, whereas Starkiller tells Kota he doesn’t know how the cannon works and then Kota says he can power it by hand…which he does. What happens is pretty clear.

quote:
2.) The Force Unleashed II Nintendo DS version outright confirms Starkiller reactivates the cannon with Force lightning. Both the Nintendo DS version (click for reference) and the console version (click for reference) portray the reactivation of the turbolasers by Force lightning. The Fusion Accelerator Cannon is outright reactivated in the same fashion (click for reference).


There are two ways to reconcile differences between the game platforms:

1. View them all as alternative pathways that nonetheless reflect plausible events that would have happened given different starting conditions and decisions.
2. Treat some as more valid than others, in which case you would obviously prefer the high-budget console versions with realistic visuals and significantly more attention and investment than the DS version that almost nobody has played.

Either way works for my case.

quote:

Further, in this version, the projectiles fired by the cannon is distinctively different than Force energy, making it clear the output is not Starkiller’s energy like you suggest (click for reference).


Hopefully you will agree that this doesn’t mean Starkiller doesn’t generate the energy, since any weapons system involves converting between different forms of energy.

quote:
3.) You incorrectly assert that the cannon interiors are destroyed. However, as Rahm Kota states, “the main cannon is offline,” suggesting that its systems are simply deactivated, which is generally what an ion cannon does. As proof, note that when the cannon is online, components of it radiate with blue energy (click for reference). Once it is hit, the blue energy disappears (click for reference). However, when Starkiller does-what-he-does, all systems turn back online and remain online after he is done operating the cannon, thus meaning he reactivates it (click for reference).


Or he supercharges it and there is lots of residual energy, given that Galen does this to a hyperdrive engine. This suggests that Starkiller actually supplies far more energy than just the cannon’s output. Your argument that he merely reactivates the cannon has been addressed above.

The ball's in your court

To emphasize just how impressive this feat is, as detailed over in my opener, this is basically Starkiller supplying the energy needed to vaporize continents with just a few seconds of shooting Force lightning that didn't even abnormally exhaust him.

Try matching this feat. Especially try because Vader - Starkiller scaling is going to be coming in more detail in this debate. Got nothing?

(continued below)


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Last edited by The Ellimist on Feb 22nd, 2018 at 02:57 AM

Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 02:54 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

(continued from above)

Response: Tanking Starkiller’s Lightning and “Too Tired To… Fail?”

quote:
In The Force Unleashed II, Starkiller is immensely weakened when he fights Darth Vader. Directly before fighting Darth Vader, the text notes, “He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being,” after releasing his full potency to destroy all his clones and the cloning tower.


The part you left out is that Starkiller was rage amped:

He stopped her before she flew off the edge of the roof, at least, but the grisly crunch of bones when she landed was unmistakable. Her head was bent at an impossible angle, and her eyes didn't track him as he ran toward her.

"Juno!"

A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward.

--The Force Unleashed II


Also in the game he screams like a maniac right before Vader ragdolls him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ueh...&t=1h11m16s

And throughout Legends, rage amps have consistently outweighed fatigue in potency:

Des had been hammering away for nearly six standard hours. The jack weighed more than thirty kilos, and the strain of keeping it raised and pressed against the rock face was taking its toll. His arms were trembling from the exertion. His lungs were gasping for air and choking on the clouds of fine mineral dust thrown up from the jack's head. Even his teeth hurt: the rattling vibration felt as if it were shaking them loose from his gums.

[...]

Gerd was drunk, but he was no fool, Des realized. Des was bigger, stronger, younger ... but he'd spent the last six hours working a hydraulic jack. He was covered in grime and the sweat was dripping off his face. His shirt was drenched. Gerd's uniform, on the other hand, was still relatively clean: no dust, no sweat stains. He must have been planning this all day, taking it easy and sitting back while Des wore himself out.

[...]

It took Des a second to realize what was happening; his tired mind had become as slow and clumsy as his body. He turned his face away just as the second blow landed, the thumb jamming painfully into the cartilage of his upper ear.

Dark rage exploded inside Des: a burst of fiery passion that burned away the exhaustion and fatigue. Suddenly his mind was clear, and his body felt strong and rejuvenated. He knew what he was going to do next. More importantly, he knew with absolute certainty what Gerd would do next, too.

--Darth Bane: Path of Destruction


Likewise, Maul had been stranded on Hypori for an entire month, fighting assassin droids without respite. He was in a far worse condition at the start of this duel than Starkiller was, sporting a blaster wound in his thigh, and according to Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul, he was "too weak to forage for food," couldn't "even walk" and in his delirium was on the precipice of hallucinating. However, upon hearing from Sidious that his life is forfeit and all his struggles have been for nothing, he feels a rage unlike anything he has ever felt before and manages to fight Sidious, feeling “so powerful he that he believed he could accomplish anything”, a feeling he backs up by doing better against Sidious one would ever expect him to:

Sidious snickered. "Can you understand? Focus. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die, Maul?"
Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.
Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next move, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck, he thought, I'm going to kill him.
Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, "You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"
"Yes," Maul grunted.
"You hate me?"
"Yes!" Maul screamed through clenched teeth.
Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand. As Maul heard his lightsaber deactivate and clatter across the cave's floor, Sidious raised his own lightsaber and advanced. Maul knew he was about to die, but he did not cringe. As Sidious swung his lightsaber, Maul leaped forward, grabbing Sidious's wrist, and sank his teeth into his hand. Maul tasted blood and spat it back at Sidious.
--The Wrath of Darth Maul


Note that rage amps tend to activate part of the Force user’s dormant potential, and Starkiller has an enormous amount (>> Sidious’s).

Combine this with the fact that Force users can recover from exhaustion within seconds in the RotS novelization, and while Dooku wasn’t quite as exhausted as Starkiller was and maybe he’s especially skilled at energy replenishment or something, it’s more evidence that combined with the emotional circumstances Starkiller using all of his might and emotional weight to zapping Vader for 30 seconds beats him moderately exerting himself for a few seconds on powering a cannon, even if he’s somewhat less fatigued in the latter case.

Likewise, none of your "contradictions" between the novelization and video game are actually contradictions because, once again, omission is not contradiction.

So, we've established that pre-prime Vader can tank Starkiller's lightning, and that Starkiller's lightning is among the most powerful we've ever seen, capable of supplying the energy needed to bust continents and visibly far surpassing anything Revan has ever dealt with. Advantage: Vader.

(continued below)


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 03:03 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

(continued from above)

Response: Vader > Mace > Revan scaling

quote:
Context is key. Cronal laces Kar Vastor’s body with a ”shadow nerve network of meltmassif,” thereby making Vastor’s “connection to the fundamental power of the Dark” rival Cronal’s. As per the quote, one’s connection to “the Dark” - Cronal’s own, crazed Force philosophy - is linked with the meltmassif, making it clear that it has nothing to do with actual Force power. However, the first quote from Shadows of the Empire can be used to draw a direct comparison between Kar Vastor and Darth Vader, so I have a rebuttal for that as well.


…what? That Cronal has his own Force philosophy doesn’t mean he thinks “power” means something other than what it means, or that he doesn’t recognize strong Force presences. Sidious has a weird quasi-Unifying Force philosophy but still uses “power” in the conventional sense, as does every Force user from every Force philosophy we’ve ever seen. This argument is nonsense.

Indeed, if Cronal has been amping Vastor, that makes the scaling even stronger.

quote:

The Korunnai - Kar Vastor included - have a deep connection to the Force energies of Haruun Kal. All of them call upon “pelekotan,” translating to “world-power” or “jungle mind,” for strength. Their bond to Haruun Kal is similar to the Nightsisters and Dathomir, who wield spirit ichor - an aspect of the Force native to Dathomir - to manifest their powers. Like with the Nightsisters, the Korunnai have a link to the Force beyond that of their homeworld by having excess midichlorians (i.e. they are Force-sensitive), but their deep submergence within pelekotan supplies them with powers intricately linked to the jungles of Haruun Kal and the energies produced by it.


AHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAH!

Pelekoton is just the native word for “the Force”:

'That's an interesting way of using-" He dredged from the depths of thirty-five-year-old memory the Koruun word for the Force. Pelekotan: roughly, "world-power." "-pelekotan. Is this something you've always been able to do?" What Mace was really asking-what he was afraid to ask outright: Did Depa teach you that?

While Mace notes that the “literal translation” is jungle world, that doesn’t literally mean that the jungle is amped. Literal translations in every language tend to be rather arbitrary, e.g. “kung fu”’s literal translation is work ethic. It certainly doesn’t suggest that the jungle is some sort of potent dark side nexus (not that that would matter much against Windu’s vaapad).

quote:
In particular, Kar Vastor is the “lor pelek,” meaning “jungle master” or “pelekotan incarnate: the avatar of the jungle-mind” [1]. Kar Vastor fully gave himself to pelekotan at the price of his humanity [2], thus becoming the embodiment of the jungle - so much so his speech is “jungle noise” [3].


Kar Vastor has fought in the jungle his entire life. Where you get this delusional notion that he is literally drawing Force energy from the bushes is beyond me.

You are also subtly inserting your own invented connections between different quotes in different chapters to make it look like his Force power comes from the jungle, when it does not.

quote:
Mace Windu states Kar Vastor’s innate ability to use pelekotan - which the novelization notes is the source of his power [4] - is as instinctual as biological processes [5].


AHAHAAHAHAAHAH!!!!

Concession accepted. You just demonstrated that Kar Vastor’s power comes primarily from his innate connection with the Force, and so any other advantages he may have from being a “master of the jungle” or even from an imaginary jungle nexus are irrelevant. Nice.

quote:
Since Kar Vastor’s true power comes from pelekotan and not himself, Mace Windu senses energy flow in and out of him from the surrounding jungle, but it never “touches” him [6].


Hilariously out of context. Mace was explaining why he thought Vastor wasn’t evil like a Sith, saying that he doesn’t embrace darkness:

FROM THE PRIVATE JOURNALS OF MACE WlNDU I don't see Vastor as evil. Not as a truly bad man. Yes, he radiates darkness-but so do all the Korunnai. And the Balawai. His is the darkness of the jungle, not the darkness of the Sith.

He does not live for power, to cause pain and dominate all he surveys. He simply lives.

Fiercely. Naturally. Stripped of the restraints of civilization. He is less a man than he is an avatar of the jungle itself. Dark power flows into him and out again but it does not seem to touch him. He has a savage purity that I might envy, were I not a Jedi and sworn to the light.

Black is the presence of every color. He doesn't make the darkness, he only uses it. His inner darkness is a reflection of the darkness of his world; and it darkens the world around him in turn. Internal and external darkness create each other, just as do internal and external light: that is the underlying unity of the Force.

As Depa might say, he didn't start this war. He's just trying to win it.

And that was it, right there: my Jedi instincts had made a connection below the threshold of my consciousness. Vastor. The jungle. The akk dogs, and the humans who had been made into Vastor's pack. Depa. Darkness so deep it was like being blind. Nick's words: The jungle doesn't promise. It exists. Not because the jungle kills you. Because it is what it is.


“his world” refers to his living circumstances, not some magical power of the jungle. Seriously, I have no idea where you got this idea from.

quote:
For example, when Kar Vastor fights, the power of the jungle around him transfers from the flora and fauna into Vastor, making the wildlife silent [7][8].


No, it doesn’t say that at all. Mace Windu is deflecting his TK into the environment, aka the jungle. This does not indicate an external amp.

quote:
However, Kar Vastor flees Haruun Kal when Palpatine orders the planet razed shortly after Revenge of the Sith. Thus, Darth Vader being the second most powerful individual alive during the reign of the Galactic Empire, and therefore more powerful than Kar Vastor, is not relevant when Vastor’s nexus-dependent power is lost to him.


Even if this imaginary jungle-amp were real, Mace still thinks he’d lose to Vastor off-planet:

He had no intention of fighting this man. Not here and now. Not anywhere. Not ever.

Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful, and he wielded weapons that could not be harmed by the Jedi blade. Mace couldn't win such a battle on his best day, and this day was far from his best: he was exhausted, badly wounded, and heartsick.


So it’s irrelevant. Either way Vader >> Kar Vastor >> TCW Mace Windu >> TPM Mace Windu _> Revan Reborn.

quote:

Mace Windu notes that it is difficult to get an impression of Kar Vastor’s power. It is near-impossible to distinguish him from the surrounding jungle [9].


Nonsense. That’s because Vastor is good at stealth and concealment (perhaps Force concealment too). Mace then confronts Vastor face-to-face and pretty explicitly quantifies his raw power to be Yoda-tier. So Windu gets a gauge of his power within a few hours of fighting him.

This wouldn’t apply to Nick who has fought alongside Vastor for decades.

quote:
In fact, Nick Rotsu is dumbfounded that Mace Windu loses his fight against Kar Vastor and is of the belief Mace “threw” the battle [10], indicating that Vastor’s aura is shrouded and/or inferior to that of Mace’s.


Nonsense. Firstly, Nick may be surprised because of Mace’s experience and skill, which is Mace’s own interpretation of Nick’s question:

What I did was pick a fight I knew I couldn't win." 'Couldn't?" 'Vastor is. very powerful. Half my age and twice my size. Training and experience can compensate only up to a point.

That’s far more plausible than the imaginary claim that Vastor constantly conceals his power when Mace notes it later in the novel!

Secondly, you’ve just given my case even more ammo, because we now know that Nick says Vader would crush Vastor even though he knew Vastor had beaten Mace Windu.

quote:
Furthermore, Kar Vastor is unable to utilize the totality of his “raw power”;




This helps my case. That means even if Vastor were losing to Mace (which he wasn’t), it doesn’t mean Mace is wrong that he has more raw power, or that Nick / the OOU quotes are wrong that Vader > Vastor in power.

(continued below)


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 03:09 AM
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The Shadow

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There is something wrong with my laptop and I'm going to try to find another way to post this content. Please be patient and don't interrupt the flow of post-pasting until after I'm done, thanks.


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 03:10 AM
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lol, well I'm on my iPhone and it looks like I'm going to have to copy stuff over from it. Great.


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 03:45 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

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(continued from above)

quote:
rather, his applicable power is on-par or inferior to Mace Windu’s, who outright rivals him in a clash of power [11]. Mace Windu also resists his Force choke, casually equals his telekinetic power [12], and, despite what Mace claims, is vastly faster [13][14]. Mace Windu is winning the entire fight; Kar Vastor only wins because, when Mace gets exhausted, Vastor gets up again and continues fighting [15].


Firstly, Mace Windu himself disagrees with you even after having fought Vastor (repost):

He had no intention of fighting this man. Not here and now. Not anywhere. Not ever.

Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful, and he wielded weapons that could not be harmed by the Jedi blade. Mace couldn't win such a battle on his best day, and this day was far from his best: he was exhausted, badly wounded, and heartsick.


And I’m inclined to take someone of Mace’s combat caliber as a credible source for his assessment of their relative abilities.

Secondly, you’re conveniently cherry picking the cases Mace gets shots in while ignoring the times Vastor gets them, like when he lifts Mace into the air or no-sells his telekinesis. This is especially true given that many of Mace’s hits were thanks to vaapad, which he didn’t have by TPM, where the corriders quote applies.

Thirdly, you shot your own point in the foot but acknowledging that Vastor’s combat ability may be less than his power – but that doesn’t break the power chain with Vader and him.

quote:
In other words, Kar Vastor has nigh-unlimited reserves since he can call endlessly on the jungle for power, hence why his “raw power” is likened to Anakin Skywalker circa Attack of the Clones.


“In other words?” The text doesn’t say that at all. What are you on?

quote:
Lastly, Mace Windu notes that Nick Rotsu “was at best marginally sane.”


Hilariously out of context. Mace obviously wasn’t questioning Nick’s competence, given that he complimented it a page earlier:

Unlike his companions, Nick spoke Basic without an accent. And he knew his way around the city. Probably why he seemed to be in charge. Mace gathered from their conversation that Nick had spent much of his childhood here in Pelek Baw. After what he'd seen of the Korun children in this city, he refused to let himself imagine what Nick's childhood must have been like.

Nor is there evidence he was referring to his ability to sense Force auras. Rather, he is commenting on the likelihood Nick is hostile to Mace:

Though he couldn't say for certain that it would be any more chancy than spending more time with these young Korunnai. They worried him; they had enough Force-touch to be unpredictable, and enough savagery to be dangerously powerful. And then there was Nick, who was at best marginally sane.

E.g. sanity from a hostility standpoint, not sanity from an ability to gauge combat ability or notice the abilities of a guy he’s fought alongside for decades. Nick would be dead if he were incapable at either of those things.

quote:
This is outright evident in Nick Rotsu’s comparison, where Rotsu states Kar Vastor is a “feral Balawai renegade.” Not only is Kar Vastor not Balawai, but he outright led a campaign alongside Nick Rotsu to exterminate the Balawai. Thus, it is apparent Nick Rotsu is not a reliable source concerning Kar Vastor since he has forgotten everything about Vastor and cannot get the essential details correct.


So here’s Nick in that same novel:

A Jedi, even a rank Padawan, would have no trouble piloting the skimmer, and probably carrying on a conversation as well, while using the Force to search for another Force-sensitive. But Nick was no Jedi; far from it. The ability to touch the Force might be encoded in his cells, but even if there were Jedi in his ancestry, whatever he'd inherited that powered the Force was evidently pretty anemic compared with that of his forebears. He'd seldom used the ability, back on Haruun Kal. for anything more than controlling akk dogs. Multitasking was out of the question. There were members of his ghosh who had far more power than he, but the only Korunnai he'd known of who'd really been good at it had been Kar Vastor. And be had Ken steeped in the dark side.

Here Nick correctly labels Kar, and elsewhere in the novel acts like a perfectly sane individual with no particular signs of memory loss.

Out of universe: it was an obvious typo and not some weird 4d chess way to question Nick’s sanity that doesn’t show up anywhere else in the novel. Vader >>> Kar Vastor is the obvious intent.

In-universe: Nick had a verbal slip, which we all have from time to time (I’ve accidentally called siblings parents, America Canada, etc.).





So it seems pretty clear that:

pre-prime Vader >> Kar Vastor,

Kar Vastor > TCW Mace Windu,

TCW Mace Windu >> TPM Mace Windu, and

TPM Mace Windu > Revan Reborn.

Ergo:

Vader >>> Revan. Note that this is easily the most solid, concrete line of powerscaling that we have between two characters separated by several thousand years.

(continued below)


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 04:06 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
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(continued from above)

Response: Vader’s growth and tanking Palpatine’s lightning


quote:
This quote is startlingly ambiguous. The term “full force” can mean “full potency” or “full impact.” However, based on the quote stating, “the Emperor turned the fullness of his malevolence against Luke,” it appears “full impact” is more likely. The Emperor clearly did not unleash the “fullness” of his potency against Luke Skywalker. or else Luke would have been destroyed. Thus, simply all the Emperor's Force lightning hit Darth Vader, thereby meaning Darth Vader took the "full force" of it.


Wrong. “malevolence” and “force” are two different terms; the Emperor does turn his full malevolence against Luke by sadistically torturing him. If he had killed Luke quickly he actually would not have been as malevolent as he could be. That obviously doesn’t mean the same thing as force and frankly that argument was silly.

Your point is rather convoluted and a transparent attempt at mental gymnastics, but let’s cut the speculation and look at the actual source material:

(please log in to view the image)

Note the lightning in the second panel – all of it in view very clearly arcs back at Vader. Note the shading and the border – it’s clearly enveloping the two of them. The only way this could mean anything different is if Palpatine were shooting his lightning directly into the page, and then only some of it arcs back at Vader. That doesn’t work when you look at the two scorched figures’ feet and the apparent positioning of Palpatine's hands – Palpatine would have to be deliberately arcing his lightning not only away from Vader, but in such a configuration as for none of the allegedly loose lightning to show up on the panel.

quote:
Whether it was because he was blinded by rage, blocked by the will of the Force, taken off guard, or all of the above, it is clear the Emperor lost control of his powers and thus would not be capable of utilizing them effectively. Note that the Emperor continues firing his Force lightning all the way down the shaft long after Darth Vader is out-of-range, making it blatant that he lost control of what he was firing. After all, in his final moments, the Emperor also: a.) was unable to foresee Luke's defiance


Absurd non sequitur. So a lack of omniscience suggests something about Palpatine’s lightning? Perhaps we can say Vitiate’s lightning wasn’t at full power against Revan because he couldn’t foresee Scourge’s betrayal?

quote:
b.) was unable to foresee Darth Vader's betrayal


Textbook circular logic fallacy. But congratulations, you’ve given Vader another feat – that he can block RotJ Sidious’s foresight / telepathy.

quote:
c.) was unable to escape Darth Vader's grasp


Textbook circular logic fallacy. Congratulations, you’ve given Vader another feat – he can physically overpower Palpatine, who has matched blades with Yoda, moved faster than Maul can perceive and casually saber locked against Savage and Maul’s running starts at the same time.

d and e are irrelevant given the sources provided.

quote:
Always check the sources you use to make sure they are out-of-universe and not in-universe.

This quote is an in-universe statement by a historian named Voren Na'al. I meticulously checked all other sources that I could find about how Darth Vader died and found only one repeated what you said: The Essential Chronology - an earlier version of the in-universe source you are using. On the other hand, I found three out-of-universe sources confirming it was the Emperor's lightning that killed Darth Vader:


You are correct that Vader dies later from the lightning. Too bad this is still an infinitely greater durability feat than anything Revan has ever done, and indeed suggests that Revan cannot hope to put Vader down in a Force battle, given that beings canonically more powerful than Revan like Yoda have shown us that they cannot walk through even RotS Sidious’s lightning. That more or less ends the debate right there unless you can prove Revan wins in a saber duel.

We furthermore have a pretty side by side comparison with Revan’s inability to handle novel Vitiate’s Force lightning that you cut out from your reply. Vitiate charges his lightning for maybe a second given the aforementioned timing and it still overwhelms Revan, while Sidious’s lightning is far more potent than the lightning that pushes Mace Windu’s vaapad to its limits…and we know Mace Windu by RotS > Revan since he’s already above Revan canonically by TPM, as demonstrated by the quote I provided in the opener.

So there are numerous ways to scale this lightning feat to make it impossible for Revan to win.

quote:
The quote you cited is just months after Revenge of the Sith. By this time, Palpatine thinks Darth Vader’s "real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical" and that he still harnesses the full potential of Anakin Skywalker, hence why Palpatine seeks to “reawaken the incredible power within.” However, Palpatine is wrong, which he realizes by the time Galen Marek and Luke Skywalker - both with incredible potential but blatantly inferior to that of the Ones - break into the scene. Palpatine even tells Galen Marek that Darth Vader “was weak, broken!” making it clear he embraces George Lucas’ opinion on the matter.



Wrong on two fronts. Firstly, Palpatine in the same train of thoughts was planning to replace Vader: “Vader would prove to be a powerful apprentice, at least until a more suitable one was found.” which I never disputed. The point is that Palpatine is not operating in this particular passage under the assumption that he’ll reawaken Anakin’s potential, but still thinks Vader can grow powerful enough to challenge, if not surpass, him, a claim supported independently by several sources.

Secondly, it isn’t true that Palpatine changes his mind about Vader never being able to approach his power:

Bad enough that Vader was as powerful as he was, though Palpatine was certain of Vader’s loyalty to the dark side.

--The Essential Guide To Characters


Which I said in my opener and mysteriously received no reply on. It happens to independently support the notion that Vader could do what he did to Palpatine, given that the latter thinks his power is worrisome.

Also I don’t particularly care what Palpatine said in the middle of combat to goad and bait Galen Marek.

Thirdly, even if we temporarily take Lucas’s word as relevant to Legends, that lends credence to my point, as “20 percent less” than RotJ Sidious is pretty damn impressive, and I never said Vader would have surpassed Palpatine.

quote:
Legacy of the Force echoes this viewpoint. A central reason why Jacen Solo falls to the dark side is so he can “be the man his grandfather couldn’t.” Lumiya states that Darth Vader could never have surpassed Palpatine and that the greatest Force abilities are beyond Vader’s ability to wield. Overall, between George Lucas, Lumiya, and, yes, Palpatine, it is clear Darth Vader does not have Force potential approaching that of Palpatine’s. That is, after all, a large part of the character’s “tragedy.”


Firstly, Vader could not become “THE Lord of the Sith” because he was not powerful enough to overthrow Sidious. Secondly, “true Master” is incredibly nebulous in its meaning – the closest to a quantifiable interpretation is that Vader could not become what Caedus could, which is obviously true as Jacen’s potential is probably beyond Palpatine’s. Thirdly, I don’t particularly care about Lumiya’s wild speculations.

We have plenty of additional reasons to believe that Vader is (relatively) close to Palpatine by RotJ:

1. His power already rivaled Yoda's given his scaling over Kar Vastor, who Mace puts in Yoda's tier in raw power, by 19 BBY - and he has had over two decades to turn that raw power into practical ability.

2. Jax Pavon regards Vader as the most powerful Force presence he's ever known:

Abruptly he experienced a sudden tingle that vibrated the lines of the Force—a plangent throb telling him that a new player was approaching the blasted landscape of the Factory District. Someone extremely strong in the Force—stronger than he’d ever encountered before. It could mean only one thing:

Darth Vader was coming.

-- Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight


As a Jedi Knight, Pavon would have met Yoda as the grandmaster leads every knighting ceremony.

3. Vader, through the "second most powerful" quote, scales above Gethzerion by post-ESB. There are two interpretations:

a) This refers to Gethzerion on Dathomir, given that she is permanently there. In this case RotJ Vader is legitimately Yoda-tier.

b) This refers to a hypothetical off-world Gethzerion. Even then, Sidious was afraid of Gethzerion leaving Dathomir and kept her stranded there, giving more evidence that he would've feared Vader's power by RotJ.

4. Vader by TFU is a tough match for Galen Marek, who then does better against Sidious's lightning than anyone else we've ever seen has (except for maybe Vader later in RotJ).

5. If we take Lucas's word into account, he's "maybe 20 percent less" than Palpatine. He obviously didn't do a formal calculation to reach this figure - "20 percent less" clearly means "noticeably weaker but not massively so".

6. You noted that Palpatine couldn't physically escape Vader or TP him.

There are, therefore, multiple ways to conclude that RotJ Vader is, if not a match for Sidious, closer to him than Revan ever was.

(continued below)


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 04:24 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

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(continued from above)

Response: ESB Vader

quote:
Once again, you conveniently leave out the next lines:

I highlighted the three key observations here.

One, Darth Vader’s lightsaber mastery is inferior to the classical swordplay demonstrated by the Jedi of earlier ages.


roll eyes (sarcastic) This quote obviously doesn’t mean that Vader cannot fight with the _polished “technique of study with lifelong masters” given that:

1. …he has studied with lifelong masters (e.g. Obi Wan, Palpatine).

2. Within weeks of Mustafar Vader is already developing a new form that employed elements from every classical style, including makashi and juyo, the latter of which requires a mastery of multiple lower forms to use:

His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable.

--Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

The apprentice knew exactly what to expect. They had dueled many times before. He had learned how to fight at the hands of the man in the black suit - the man whose face had been forever hidden from him. He knew the intimacies of his refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi.

--The Force Unleashed

He saw Darth Vader move now. He saw the curl of his cape. The way he turned his body, the position of his feet, the way his arm moved. He had used a classic Jedi shun move, rotating the lightsaber 360 degrees, but the rotation had moved so fast he'd been unable to track it.
Break it down.
Form IV. Then Form VII, the most advanced Jedi form. Done aggressively, with impeccable control.
Coldness gripped his heart. Jedi moves.
The movement had been done with a grace and finesse that rendered it not part of a drill but part of Vader's body. He brought an individual flair to it that made it his own.
Something familiar about that form. An aggression, a confidence ... It struck a memory he couldn't touch. But who could it be?
If he could only know how old Vader was. Had he been on the Council? Such expertise suggested it.

--The Last of the Jedi: Secret Weapon

Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII.

--Insider #62


3. Vader hunts down multiple former “Jedi of earlier ages”, and Galen Marek matches Shaak Ti, one of the greatest duelists in the Jedi Order’s history, in a duel on a light side nexus but struggles considerably more against a pre-prime Vader.

4. Myself and most readers are, unlike you, not interested in coming to obviously unreasonable interpretations for the sake of lowballing.

Rather, against Luke in ESB he initially toys with him, and when he gets serious visibly just starts manically hacking away at him. If he had been fighting, say, Dooku, or someone with more experience as a swordmaster, he would have tried no such thing.

quote:

Two, this is “the height of his powers,” meaning that Darth Vader evidently did not grow much stronger by the time of Return of the Jedi, despite what he claims.


Nonsense. The quote is in the present tense so there’s no reason to think it includes the future; Vader is at the height of his powers as of that moment (not that it wouldn’t also mean that if it were past tense – but with the present tense it’s indisputable).

But wouldn’t it also refer to Knightfall Vader?

quote:

Three, Darth Vader “only” has a “dominant edge in battle” against Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back because of his “much greater experience.”


Yes, as his experience is why he has tapped into more of his potential and technical ability. Luke obviously would destroy Vader (or Palpatine) if their experience levels were on an even playing field.



So we know that ESB Vader >> ANH Vader. We further know that RotJ Vader > ESB Vader. This all fits well into the various sources explicitly noting Vader's growing power. So:

RotJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader >= TFU II Vader >> TFU Vader >>>> Dark Times Vader >> Kar Vastor > TCW Mace >> TPM Mace > Revan Reborn

or:

RotJ Vader > ESB Vader > Gethzerion = threat to Palpatine

(continued below)


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 04:43 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

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(continued from above)


Response: “The Power Of Muur Compels You”

As you note, since this is 19 BBY Vader way before his prime, it isn't even an argument for Revan; at most it attempts to contradict Vastor scaling.

quote:
The above scan from Dark Times 12: Vector, Part 6 can and has been interpreted many different ways, but it unquestionably evident that Karness Muur’s power is, at the very least, comparable to Darth Vader’s in 19 BBY. It logically does not follow that Darth Vader is simultaneously significantly more powerful than Karness Muur yet believes, with Muur’s power, he can overthrow Palpatine. Darth Vader’s assertion is clearly mistaken as Palpatine would obliterate them, but it still indicates Karness Muur’s immense power.


Hold up here. You agree that Vader is wrong in his assessment. There seem to be three possible reasons:

1. He overestimates his own power.
2. He underestimates Palpatine's power.
3. He overestimates Muur's power.

Let's see here. He knows his own power and Palpatine's far better than he does Muur's (given that he saw Sidious fighting Mace, among other things). Likewise, if he were being a braggart, why would he then conclude that he's weaker than Muur?

Muur has consistently tried to manipulate individuals from Vader to Cade Skywalker, and right now Vader has to speculate about the abilities of a full-powered Muur, as opposed to, say, very concrete statements about his power relative to Kar Vastor. I fail to see how this is convincing evidence that Muur is uber-powerful.

quote:
The fact Darth Vader rejects Karness Muur not because they would still lose to Palpatine but rather that he does not want to trade Palpatine for a new master indicates his fear of being subservient to Karness Muur is greater than his fear of betraying Palpatine. None of these thoughts would exist if Karness Muur is blatantly feeble compared to Darth Vader. Further, why would Darth Vader kneel before an inferior Sith and not instead try to expel Karness Muur’s spirit if he is indeed more powerful?


You left out an important detail. Karness Muur’s “strength to stop Vader” is directly linked to the Muur Talisman’s ability to create and control rakghouls:

(please log in to view the image)

It is this power that allows Celeste Morne to drive Vader away in the story; it is this power that Karness Muur labels as his own; and it is this power that The Jedi Academy Training Manual deemed ”more important” than the raw dark side power of Karness Muur lurking within the Talisman when it came to the Talisman’s attributes:

(please log in to view the image)

Thus, when Vader ”feel[s] the power the talisman holds”, he is most likely referring to the Talisman ”hold[ing] the power to create and control vile creatures known as rakghouls.” It would make no sense for Vader to be wary of Muur’s normal power when people with strength provably inferior to him (click for reference) can contain it just fine (click for reference), especially when he has directly seen Morne being able to keep Muur at bay, from her refusal to accept his power and from the latter constantly insisting and urging her to use his power rather than simply dominating her (click for reference), which he is capable of doing to lesser adepts ([1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]), but Morne, from all available evidence, was too powerful for him.

So what we get from this is that Vader thinks he can defeat Palpatine, which you acknowledge is wrong...by summoning lots of really deadly monsters. Well, sure - I could see many contexts in which that would be plausible. It doesn't tell us anything about Vader's power though.

Furthermore, we don't even know how the Muur talisman's power=up system works; if it "adds" its power to Vader, it could very well be that adding power levels together is far more effective than having them fight together separately. This clearly seems to be the case given that battle meditation and other types of power transfer are considered effective.

The above also presentes a nice new line of scaling for Vader: Celeste Morne is powerful enough to block the combined Force lightning of Vong Krayt and Darth Maladi (click for reference), yet she is inferior to Darth Vader even as of 19 BBY. And now that Legacy characters have been brought up, we might as well mention Cade Skywalker, who was also capable of easily repelling Muur’s power (click for reference), and from comparisons to other Legacy era characters, is even less powerful than Morne, who can rival the main man Krayt himself.

(continued below)


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 04:43 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

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(continued from above)

Response: “The Wrath Of Kun”

Most of your arguments here aren’t wrong so much as they are…pointless. I mean, you’re trying to match one-shotting an imperial star destroyer, one-shotting thousands of droids with a single burst of telekinesis, bringing down an imperial star destroyer, walking through Sidious’s lightning, with…

QUEEN AMANOA: oooohh, she did something something to a few thousand beast riders. Who cares?

ARCA JETH: ooohh, he vaguely scales above some tomb that vaguely defeats a few thousand soldiers under undefined (at least by you) circumstances. Galen Marek literally does this with a single attack.

OMMIN: Funny that both Vader and Galen Marek by literal direct feats would’ve just pulled those fighters from the sky. In either case, you have no impressive feats here.

ULIC QEL-DROMA: you say nothing here.

EXAR KUN: you say nothing here.

quote:
Revan (SOR) >> Revan (end of KOTOR) >> Darth Malak (end of KOTOR) >>> Exar Kun (TOTJ, TSW #6) > Ulic Qel-Droma (TOTJ, TSW #5) >>> Ulic Qel-Droma (end of TOTJ, DLOTS #6) = Exar Kun (end of TOTJ, DLOTS #6) >>> Ulic Qel-Droma (start of TOTJ, DLOTS #6) = Exar Kun (start of TOTJ, DLOTS #6) >> Exar Kun (start of TOTJ, DLOTS #5) >>>+ Ommin (TOTJ, TFNU #2) >>> Arca Jeth (TOTJ, TFNU #1) >>>+ Queen Amanoa (TOTJ, KOTOR #2) = ravaging the minds of thousands of Beast Riders.


So you went through all that effort to brag about Revan being far above someone who can ravage the minds of thousands of random fodder?

Why didn’t you bring up that scaling that lets him one-shot imperial star destroyers…oh…wait…



New: A hint of Vader's power

Do you want to try to match the feats Vader scales above now? You've been awfully quiet on it. Remember that Galen Marek doesn't surpass TFU Vader until very late into the story (given that Vader is ragdolling and sh*tting on him throughout), yet throughout it he has...

Blasted away thousands of droids at once:

Soon the foyer was full of the twitching, smoking bodies of the Temple’s hapless guardians. He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them.

Deactivating his lightsaber, he took a deep breath. With one mighty exhalation of power, he blasted all of them—those in pieces and those approaching with needle-tipped fingers and vibrosaws upraised—out of the foyer doors. Then he blasted the rubbish piles after them. He kept pushing until a dark cloud soared out over Raxus Prime’s hideous landscape—an artificial hurricane full of droid golems.

When the foyer was clear, the apprentice straightened. He was no longer pushing with the Force, but the floor beneath him shook nonetheless. A heavy booming sound came from deeper in the Temple, and was getting louder. He had certainly attracted someone’s attention now.


Force pushed hundreds of droids with unamped TK:

It was already over, but the Core still had some fight left. Hundreds of slave droids converged on the apprentice, hoping to crush him under their combined weight before he could reach the nearest processor. He blew them away with a single push and slashed open the processor’s casing. Ignoring the hot metal edges, he pushed his left hand into the workings inside.

Brought down a star destroyer:

Since we've established that the video game cutscenes are valid independently of the novels:



The novelization's is impressive for its own reason that we might get into later.

Powered a super-super-super-star destroyer busting cannon:

Or rather, a structure that dwarfed a star destroyer:

(please log in to view the image)

(please log in to view the image)

(please log in to view the image)

Powered a several hundred meter long's ship's engines:


The starship lay directly between him and the Temple and was far too big to get around. That could take him hours. He would have to either go through the starship, or move it.

...

Focus, he told himself. Undirected power was power wasted. Gritting his teeth, he gathered the energy and directed it down his arms, into his hands. Blue light strobed across his vision as the lightning flowed into the wires and from there into the hyperdrive engines. Groaning, then shrieking, the massive engine came alive. Damaged, completely out of alignment, and barely controllable, the turbine shook with propulsive power, then strained against the braces still holding it to the corvette's warped chassis.

The deck kicked underneath the apprentice. He swayed as the entire corvette shifted. With a terrible sound, it began to move, plowing a brutal furrow through the surrounding rubbish. He could picture it clearly in his imagination and through the vibrant flow of the Force. As lightning poured through him and into the engine, it pushed the stricken corvette physically out of his path. The way to the Temple was now clear.

When he sensed that it had gone far enough, he relaxed his concentration. Smaller discharges of energy skittered across his skin. Somewhat shakily, he stood, then almost toppled over as the engine continued to fire, sending the corvette onward, out of his control.

He hadn't expected that. There was enough residual potential in the turbine to keep it running for dozens of seconds. He had to get out of the corvette before it dragged him any farther from his goal.
The Force Unleashed Novelization


Casually blew a tie-fighter sized hole in said ship:

Straining, he blew a hole in the side of the downed ship wide enough for a TIE fighter to pass through. The wall of a junk canyon was gliding by, raining rubbish. With one smooth leap, he caught hold of dangling cable and swung free of the wreck. It roared on, dragging itself through the dregs of the galaxy on its disintegrating belly, sending waves of disturbed filth radiating outward from its path.

Note that the AotC: ICS says that the hulls of Acclamator troop-transports can no-sell nuclear fusion warheads.




It's clear that Galen Marek even as of the beginning of the story, when Vader could've killed him with a gesture, has better feats than anything you've managed to scale Revan from.

Here's the especially impressive part though: Galen's feats are done without any external amps, rituals, prep, or, in most cases, substantial effort/build-up. This is certainly more impressive than Revan needing a massive ritual and machine to cause damage within a "one kilometer radius".

(continued below)


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 05:11 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

(continued from above)

New: Dooku Scaling

You didn't think Kar Vastor was the only way to put Vader above TPM Mace, was it?

Vader is clearly more powerful than Dooku:

Sedriss.

Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base.

-- Handbook 3: Dark Empire


You might wonder if this is only referring to disciples who were alive at a particular point in time, but it's actually referring to Sedriss's power after Vader's death, so if it references Vader it must also reference Dooku. We know this because Palpatine considers Sedriss to be "a moderate force sensitive, a capable errand boy, not the stuff of a true apprentice" (Jedi vs. Sith), which is hardly language that implies Sedriss at that point was on the level of, say, Jerec or even Mara Jade. So the quote has to be referring to Sedriss after Palpatine amps his power to the point where he can defeat Luke Skywalker.

Ergo, Vader > Dooku.

Minor Masterpiece

Here's what Sidious has to say about Vader:

Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal.

-- Jedi Vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force


Now, to obtain Vader, Sidious had to get rid of Dooku. He clearly doesn't seem to regret doing that, which he obviously would have if RotJ Vader were weaker Dooku. You could say that Sidious was just gloating in the sadism and irony of turning the Chosen One, but while that may have amused him, Palpatine is obviously more interested in obtaining a powerful apprentice, given that he does try to replace Vader with Galen and later Luke. Nor can you say that Vader had advantages other than power - Dooku was more loyal, more experienced, more politically skilled and connected, and had less emotional baggage. You might say that Dooku's old age was a limiting factor, but that's implausible - firstly, because Sidious may have had or soon had the ability to reverse aging (he suggests in the Plagueis novel that he can already do this with midichlorian manipulation - he likely can't do it to himself because the dark side is literally killing it), and even otherwise people in Star Wars live really, really long:

"Isn't medicine miraculous today?" Caedus asked. No one answered, of course. It was a rhetorical question. "A being is more likely to die of a meteor strike than of old age or disease."

So yeah, if Dooku > RotJ Vader, Sidious would have regretted getting rid of him. And given that Dooku is an equal match for TCW Windu:

Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.

- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous


It is clear that:

Vader > Dooku > TPM Mace > Revan.





Summary


quote:
While I do think this “debate” - although calling it that is a stretch if the entirety is me correcting you on simple matters - has been quite disappointing so far, I hope you can turn it around and make it more interesting. As a rule of thumb, simply spamming the most “ludicrous” - as you put it - arguments is not an effective way to win a debate. Generally, the more outrageous the argument, the easier it is to tear apart. Notice that every single “feat” or “scaling” you have brought before me has not withstood the most basic of scrutiny, nor has any forced my hand to draw a direct comparison with Revan. That being said, I will now introduce two central Revan arguments - with a minimum of five additional ones coming in future posts when and if needed.


(please log in to view the image)

Let's summarize the state of things so far:

1. Vader can tank Starkiller's lightning, which directly powers a cannon to destroy a shielded imperial star destroyer in one hit, something that would require continent-vaping energies to perform.

2. Vader can tank and walk through RotJ Sidious's lightning, while Revan gets devastated and overwhelmed by novel Vitiate's.

3. Vader can tank the point blank suicide blast of a Oneness Galen Marek, who even before oneness was in a state such that he was doing better against Palpatine than anyone to that point ever had.

4. Vader is far more powerful than TCW Mace Windu, who is in turn far more powerful than Revan per concrete accolades.

5. Vader is more powerful than Count Dooku, who is more powerful than Revan per concrete accolades.

6. Vader scales from the ability to bring down imperial star destroyers, bust massive orbital superstructures larger than said star destroyers, one-shot thousands of droids through uncharged TK, and power several hundred meter long ships' engines, while Revan scales from...the ability to kill a few thousand beast riders.

7. Muur's apparent superiority to 19 BBY Vader is both, by your own admission, based on inaccurate musings and really the product of Muur's talisman being able to summon lots of monsters.

8. Multiple sources confirm that Sidious views Vader as a legitimate threat by RotJ.

9. Multiple sources confirm that Vader's sheer power rivals Yoda's by RotJ (though this does not necessarily mean he would defeat Yoda in a fight).

So to answer my question, no, Revan cannot hurt Vader. To do so he would either have to release an attack more powerful than Oneness Galen Marek who was more powerful than Yoda, unleash lightning beyond Palpatine's and beyond the defenses of a star destroyer's shields, or tank Vader's attacks and defeat him in a saber duel (which will be funny to see you argue).

So answer your question, Vader can hurt Revan by overwhelming him with star destroyer dropping TK, and by being more powerful than him through multiple lines of scaling.

Vader therefore has a clear superiority over Revan along every line of evidence, from feats to accolades to character opinions.

End.


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 05:40 AM
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|King Joker|
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Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Transcendent


 


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 06:10 AM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

Darth Vader's power is surrounded by inconsistency, though. I don't know why you are still using Galen to gauge his power. Also, when Vader picked the emperor up he wasn't using Tutaminis.

Not only that, but Starkiller was more powerful in the Force shenenigansly than original Galen Marek.

Even Sidious used his full power on Windu and he couldn't ash or charred husk Windu. So, Sidious' lightning is also overrated(least he uses dark side nexuses like Kalakar Six)

I don't know why even Oneness events are gauged so much. Oneness isn't a godly boost, it's just a minor boost. Oneness isn't a certainty you will win.


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Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Feb 22nd, 2018 at 08:07 AM

Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 07:59 AM
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JKBart
Restricted

Registered: Aug 2015
Location: Poland

Account Restricted


 

very good response, waiting what Ant will do about it


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 01:20 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

Well damn, Elim was more than ready for Ant's response.

Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 04:29 PM
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Selenial
I Choose Violence

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities


 

Say what you will about the debate, Elim’s Microsoft paint skills are unrivalled


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Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 04:44 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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#Thebarenecessities

Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 04:51 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

But inconsistencies around Vader exist.


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RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 05:17 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
I am LeGenD

Registered: Nov 2006
Location: EARTH


 

Elim at the top of his game here. Them MS Paint skillz..... Most impressive.

thumb up

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Feb 22nd, 2018 at 06:46 PM

Old Post Feb 22nd, 2018 06:38 PM
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