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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » How to quantify Darth Plagueis overpowering the Force's will?


How to quantify Darth Plagueis overpowering the Force's will?
Started by: DarthAnt66

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DarthAnt66
The Returned

Registered: Feb 2013
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How to quantify Darth Plagueis overpowering the Force's will?

Thoughts? I'm interested in hearing how we can apply this to fights.


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Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 05:22 AM
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ILS
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Interesting thread Ant, most interesting.

I'm starting to dig more into this topic and one's like it in my own research, I might have a better answer for you some time in the future.


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Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 05:27 AM
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Azronger
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Essentially, Plagueis hijacked the midi-chlorians from the Force and became their sovereign instead. Given how the Force expresses itself through the midi-chlorians and how all life and all Force abilities are generated from them, Plagueis essentially mastered life, death and the Force as a whole, completely and utterly.

Should he choose to invent a new Force power on a whim, he could. Should he choose to will someone to die, he could. Should he choose to keep himself alive ad infinitum via self-regeneration, he could. As I see it, the limitations of midi-chlorian manipulation are almost non-existent. Anything Plagueis wishes to do within the scope of his power level, he can. He can also grow more powerful by creating new midi-chlorians but seeing as this takes time beyond what he has in the heat of battle, I'd say it is one of the few things he can't use to his advantage in combat (unless he stops time and waits for a few months, then resumes the fight and one-shots the continent).


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Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 05:39 AM
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DarthAnt66
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Az: as you noted, Plagueis hijacked the midichlorians from the Force - essentially overpowering the Force's will.

The abilities granted by MM aside, don't you think overpowering the Force's will is even more impressive?


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Jan 29th, 2018 at 05:47 AM

Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 05:45 AM
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Freedon Nadd
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Aren't these two exclusive, though?

What he did with Palps was entirely different. In the first case, he just manipulates individuals' Force cells. In the second case, he wanted to put a shroud over the 'galaxy' with Palps to tip it to the dark side(to outbalance the 'Force') Although, it's worth noting that to Luceno, the Force represents the light side, whereas the dark side represents its corruption(the outbalance).


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Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 29th, 2018 at 06:42 AM

Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 06:37 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Az: as you noted, Plagueis hijacked the midichlorians from the Force - essentially overpowering the Force's will.

The abilities granted by MM aside, don't you think overpowering the Force's will is even more impressive?
Overpowering the midichlorians is them overpowering the Force's will over the cells which make the basis of all life, and the Force communicates it's energy through those cells.

Overpowering the "will" of the Force in the cosmic sense was Plagueis and Sidious going up against the collective energy and will of the Force, which is where all the energy of life, and all psychic energy, stems from. The Force could have smited them, but within the level of influence the Force has shown willing to exert (not much), they were able to shift the alignment of the Cosmic Force completely in favour of the Dark Side.

They're both ultimately amazing feats; one is tampering with the building blocks of life itself, the other is pitting their collective essence/consciousness/psychic power up against the source of all energy in the physical and psychic worlds.

In one they undermine the Force on the physical plane, in the other, the psychic.

Which, btw, has a bearing not only on physical-based Force abilities like telekinesis, but also psychic-based ones like telepathy. Living Force and psychic Force energies are different in application but stem from the same source, and fall under the umbrellas of Sense, Alter and Control. Their meditation, in effect, is an immense telepathic feat at it's root.

So, you know, after accounting for the amount of psychic energy and physical power there would be needed to undermine the Force on it's most fundamental level, resulting in Anakin's birth as a counterattack, you can see why I hold Plagueis so high.

He even got to the point of creating new midichlorians in himself and inducing fatherless births in animals. And because he understood how to alter the composition of midichlorians, which remember, is where all Force abilities are channelled through, he is able to tap into virtually any Force power without the need for a natural talent in them; he can alter his own midichlorians in such a way that, hey, you weren't born with a talent for sorcery, but now that your midichlorians are built the right way, the energies communicated through the Force that would facilitate sorcerous powers can now make their way through your body, as if you were born able to.

Hence why "there are no powers beyond his reach."


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Last edited by ILS on Jan 29th, 2018 at 06:53 AM

Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 06:45 AM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Az: as you noted, Plagueis hijacked the midichlorians from the Force - essentially overpowering the Force's will.

The abilities granted by MM aside, don't you think overpowering the Force's will is even more impressive?


It is, but there's no real way to quantify it beyond "well, Valk failed, so Plagueis > Valk" in my view. If someone else can, though, I'd be interested.

I guess you could say it's the equivalent of willing the entire galaxy to turn into a dark side nexus, but that feat still stands regardless of the Force's will's involvement.


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Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 06:45 AM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Az: as you noted, Plagueis hijacked the midichlorians from the Force - essentially overpowering the Force's will.

The abilities granted by MM aside, don't you think overpowering the Force's will is even more impressive?


Eh, I think you're overcrediting Plagueis' deed.

First, it is noted that what he did to people didn't really affect the galaxy. The Force isn't concerned with petty things. And you can't hijack something when it also backfires at you. Just because the Force didn't attack Palps and Plagueis back there and then during their meditation; that doesn't mean the Force didn't want to punish them. On contrary, the Force willed Anakin into existence as punishment for them both.
Anakin isn't willed because Plagueis made the Force his b**ch; he is willed due to his dark side machinations to suffuse the galaxy: Punishment

That so-called 'etheric war' referred to Plagueis and Sidious' long meditation to bathe the galaxy into the dark side of the Force. There wasn't really any 'war', except from their point of view. They even wondered why the Force wouldn't just shutdown their Force cells and kill them. Plagueis even mentions later how could it even be possible to outbalance the Force's will.


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Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 06:55 AM
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NewGuy01
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>the force isn't concerned with petty things
>literally creates the most powerful being in history to stop them


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The Force has a certain level of will that it is willing to impose on beings. It grants everyone free will and tends not to intervene. It created a god-like being with free will because of Plagueis and Sidious' actions, a being born of pure Force energy with no father. That goes a long way in explaining why the feat is so impressive; the Force has never created a god to defeat anyone else.


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Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 06:57 AM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
>the force isn't concerned with petty things
>literally creates the most powerful being in history to stop them


I like how you took it out of the context. Obviously, by petty things I meant Plagueis manipulating individuals' Force cells. The second case is different.


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Azronger: "Nadd is not a Sheevite. He hates Sheev. Avoid him."

Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 07:12 AM
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The Force was concerned enough with Plagueis' tampering that it spontaneously killed his test subjects...


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Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 07:16 AM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
The Force has a certain level of will that it is willing to impose on beings. It grants everyone free will and tends not to intervene. It created a god-like being with free will because of Plagueis and Sidious' actions, a being born of pure Force energy with no father. That goes a long way in explaining why the feat is so impressive; the Force has never created a god to defeat anyone else.


The Force created Anakin as punishment, kind of. It had nothing to do with Plagueis and Sidious' power. They tried to suffuse the galaxy with dark side power via meditation, and the Force punished them.
Second: Plot Force: Anakin's Origins
Third: Abeloth was also a cosmic threat, but the Force didn't will any 'Chosen One' to stop her.


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Azronger: "Nadd is not a Sheevite. He hates Sheev. Avoid him."

Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 07:19 AM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
The Force was concerned enough with Plagueis' tampering that it spontaneously killed his test subjects...


But it didn't kill him. That was the Force's response: Stop there b**ch, or I am gonna pay it you back with the same coin.
One is to try, one is to succeed. If anyone were to try it: The same would happen.


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Azronger: "Nadd is not a Sheevite. He hates Sheev. Avoid him."

Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 07:22 AM
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Not just anyone can do these things, which is the point, you buffoon.


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Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 07:25 AM
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Haschwalth
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Though why would the force, kill the beings that if killed, would tip the balance of the force completely into the light. The light had been dominating the dark for nearly a millennium. hence I can see the force offering no resistance to Plageuis's/sidious's ritual.

Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 07:28 AM
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Their ritual not only tore open the bubble/aura of Light the Jedi had put over the galaxy, but then replaced it by plunging the galaxy into a greater darkness than ever before. Neither is necessarily good, only one was bad enough to warrant a Chosen One.


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Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 07:30 AM
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Haschwalth
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Their ritual not only tore open the bubble/aura of Light the Jedi had put over the galaxy, but then replaced it by plunging the galaxy into a greater darkness than ever before. Neither is necessarily good, only one was bad enough to warrant a Chosen One.


In which that chosen one, turned to the dark side.
Ironic.
Pretty shit job on the force's part tbh.

Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 07:41 AM
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ILS
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thumb up

Didn't keep Sheev out of commission for long, either.

But that's mainly because they let Anakin retain his free will.


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Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 07:42 AM
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Haschwalth
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You would think the Force would Guide anakin away from that. But the inconstancy of the series, in regard to lore is a pain.

Old Post Jan 29th, 2018 07:42 AM
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