I disagree though. But Kun can certainly defeat either of them. Vader looses upon re-evaluting his position to Galen. Especially upon the game feats getting pigeon-holed in the alternate-continuity category. The 80% of Sidious claim gets dismissed thanks to lore being only canon or Legends, with G-canon no longer being a factual concept. The fightsaber article also addresses Kenobi's skill having declined by ANH. Taking into consideration that fightsaber was written before the release of ROTS (it's referring to ATOC obi wan). ROTJ Luke, by account of his training and potential should be below ATOC Anakin etc. For a direct feats comparison, there actually is a very old comic of Vader fleeing from a crowd of people the size that Kun collectively stunned in the senate. And of course, Kun whopped the Mace Windu of his time (who yes, is not literally as powerful as Mace) while keeping them there. That does honestly seem beyond Vader.
As for Maul, he gets collective L's for running from pirates and loosing to padawans.
Last edited by HeartThrob on Feb 9th, 2018 at 03:02 AM
Ziggy makes heavy use of rhetoric to make nuanced, thought provoking arguments that take a long time to deconstruct. Thus you tend to lose more than you gain by debating against him, unless you are incredibly diligent.
And I presume he'll use some classic anti-Maul, pro-Kun rhetoric to spin a specific narrative, and he thinks it's harder to accomplish the same narrative for Maul.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Because when I look at the situations that Maul and Exar have been in I struggle to see Maul posing the level of threat towards his enemies that Exar does. I also struggle to see Exar not mopping the floor with the types of people Maul has trouble against, even as a spirit. Let's just take the senate feat for example, Kun stunned what looks to be close to 100,000 people at once while fighting (and beating) the head weapon master of the faction. Vodo might not have had the screen time to display easily cross-refferencible feats. But the power is implied. "The Mace windu" of a much more fighting centric-era that has the same infrastructure for finding force sensitives within republic space without the same restrictions. You simply can't be that high up in the TOTJ era without being on the "tier 8" enlightened group. Let's compare that to Maul running away from a small group of pirates. There's also the shattering of beskarr with his lightsaber. that doesn't seem to be replicated anywhere else. And yes, while i'm impressed with Maul's feats in lock-down it didn't help him curb-stomp Qui Gon Jinn, a jedi who ins't powerful enough to overcome his old age, and actually has to tailor his own fighting style to his aid shortcomings rather than just amping himself past them.
My point exactly. Nothing to lose, everything to gain, definitely counter-able but requires considerable manpower nobody sane would want to dedicate. But let's make some observations anyway.
Kun stunned 100,000 muggles, but no Jedi. So this power clearly isn't useful against powerful Force users.
Vodo was the Mace Windu of his era in terms of his rank within the Order, no direct comparison was made between their power, and in terms of accolades and feats, Windu massacres Vodo.
Maul ran away from pirates in canon, whereas in legends he solo'd the collective forces of the Black Sun, the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy, while they were locked up in their highest security fortress with all of their armies and bodyguards, fully expecting Maul's arrival - a bit beyond a small group of pirates.
Kun shattered Beskar with the aid of the ambient energies of Nadd's tomb and Nadd's spirit helping him, as the comic heavily implies.
Qui-Gon "not overcoming his old age" isn't a criticism that is really pertinent to the argument you're making, he pretty much stands on his own as far as comparisons to power go. There's no logical basis for lowering Maul's standing based on his fight with Jinn, rather than simply amplifying Jinn's standing for how he did against Maul.
I'm sad to say, I doubt continued responses will be worth the effort, due to Zig's sophistry.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
I'm gonna add a bit to the beskar thing, Kun destroying it is great...however it's not something that's really unique. He cut a motionless slab that wasn't fighting back.
Beskar is only resistant to lightsaber blows, it can withstand hits sure, but eventually...like Cortosis, like Phrik, it can be cut through. A giant slab of it won't fight back, so one can just hack away at it and eventually it will be cut as Kun shown, Beskar eventually was punched through by laser cannons too, so it does have its limits, it's not just gonna stand there and take hits indefinitely.
The thing with pirates, yeah...that's Canon Maul, Legends Maul went through the Black Sun who are far superior to lowly pirates.
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Savage Opress literally shattered a beskar door with TK, and Maul is way more powerful. Kun's feat at Nadd's tomb during which he was nexus-amped and had the spirit of Nadd helping him as the text implies has nothing on that.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
>Jedi Kun smashes a man-sized hole through a multi-meter thick wall of Beskar.
>Kun's power literally multiplies twice over after this.
>Nigh-prime Opress smashes a door of beskar with TK.
So Jedi Kun >> near-prime Opress is what I'm getting here.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
I see that we're using TPM maul as the favoured iteration. And also a preference for Legends over canon. Bare in mind this is your methodology, as canon is usually more valid - stuff that actually happened in the lore, as oppose to Legends - stuff that might have happened. Regarding the black sun "armies" guarding the fort, Maul doesn't seem to face any more than thirty of these "muggles" at a time. And these are groups often consisting of people who run towards him with blasters.
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Although this might not even contradict the notion that if enough people shoot at Maul while maintaining some reasonable distance, he'll be forced to flee. Kun of course would paralyse these groups 1000 times over. That makes him a legitimate "army" buster. And if he can dismantle people like Vodo while maintaining such abilties with a massive area of effect, it looks better than Maul fighting vastly smaller groups of muggles, getting tagged by them and then having trouble against a random night sister afterwards.
I've already addressed this straw-man.
I don't think Vodo is = Mace, just like I don't think Odan urr is = Yoda. That's why I theorise them to be on the tier 8 level as oppose to tier 9. The idea is not to disregard characters like this because of their lack of exposure. Their power is implied by their standing in the order, and this is an order that does have several advantages when recruiting force sensitives compared to the Modern era, and actually has a wider sample of Jedi. It also helps that Vodo is a dedicated weapon master, and has been for 100's of years.
The ambient energies of Nadd's spirit and his tomb. Lol, one of these entities might be helping him along. If it's the "energies of the tomb", we'll given that Kun is still a Jedi at this point and yet to turn to the dark side (force lsd, or a cheat to reach a higher level), we can probably say he's past the point where the Tomb amps his abilties as a Jedi beyond that of his final iteration as dark lord of the sith. This is especially true considering that Kun becomes the "darkest power in the galaxy" according to the same comic. Putting him above the energies of a tomb and probably serval other dark side organisations and worlds mentioned in the same comic.
If it's Nadd who's helping him. Then there's two possibilities, either Nadd is unlocking some of Kun's own potential, which would happen when he turns to the dark side anyway. Or Nadd is giving him some of his own power, which is irrevant seen as Kun one shots him later, while still before his prime.
If he can not maintain the same super-human levels of acrobatics as he did in his youth, then it implies that a large part of his fighting prowess is reliant on his own human physicality, which does indeed cheapen Maul. If someone like that presents a reasonable challenge to Maul, then the odds of finding people in others era's (particularly ones with more duelists) who can do the same is very very likely.
Last edited by HeartThrob on Feb 9th, 2018 at 08:59 AM
I can buy that Exar's sorcery and superior esoteric abilities make him a better army buster / more cosmically powerful than Maul, but that doesn't mean that he would win in a 1 v 1 duel given that Maul was trained along a very different set of priorities.
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Forgive me for not being clear - you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, the reverse is true for anyone debating you.
Careful with the game you're playing here, hombre. I'm using legends because Exar Kun is a purely legends characters. If you want to compare canon - the reality of Star Wars - to the legends Exar Kun's entire character is based in, you are pitting rumours and myths against reality, and guess which one turns out better for Maul?
Indeed. Let's talk about that. So your claim is that canon should take more precedent over Legends, seeing as canon actually happened, and legends is often marred with hyperbole and embellishment. What this now means is that all of Kun's accomplishments are subject to a metaphorical scalpel, due to their dubious veracity, whereas I can draw upon any of Maul's canon feats and accolades and quite happily state that they are true.
So what follows from this, then, is me posting a bunch of compelling evidence which proves that Maul is "one of the deadliest" and "most highly trained Sith in the history of the Order," that he was "trained in Sidious' likeness" "in all types of Sith ways," so that one day he could have "the baton passed to him" and "carry on the Sith tradition proudly."
I would then cite Maul's very real, very impressive feats, such as him dragging a massive shuttle off of a cliff while limping with an amputated leg, carrying his brother and fending off blaster fire, meaning he is far from a peak level of focus when performing this feat. Or compelling evidence to suggest he is in "Vader's realm," with Vader being someone who in canon has a whole host of extremely impressive power feats.
None of this, and more, being marred by the criticism that it could just be an embellishment of reality. And if you want to discount the words of Dave Filoni and Sam Witwer, two authorities directly intertwined with Maul's revival in the new canon, then you can just kindly stop bringing up Gillard and his tiering system. Unless you want to commit and egregious double standard, that is.
Moreover, in canon, it has been said by Filoni and Lucas that concepts such as Sith spirits are absolutely impossible, and shouldn't occur in the "true" Star Wars universe, which is the reason they didn't bring Revan and Bane into TCW briefly as spirits to consult with The Son. And we have many quotes stating that anything taking place outside of the canon universe can easily be interpreted as an embellishment of fact, so that leaves the question, just how powerful would the not-currently-existing Exar Kun appear if he was written into TCW? Likely nowhere near as powerful as you claim he is, with your myths and rumours.
Not that Kun has ever done anything even closely resembling taking on the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy, in their primary fortress, with all of their combined military assets dedicated to protecting them from an attack from Maul, which, btw, they were prepared for..... how about instead of just taking one still image of a conflict that raged over an entire comic issue, we take a look at the full thing, yes? Because the idea that armies of soldiers armed with blasters weren't using those blasters is quite obviously ludicrous.
As you can see, they are using blasters, they are simply failing to hit anything but air. Maul wastes all of them, and continues to do so throughout the comic until he has killed all of Alexi Garyn's primary bodyguards, and then the man himself.
Were that the case, how do you expect Maul was able to kill not only the individual "armies" commanded by individual Black Sun vigos, but the collective armies of the several remaining Vigos Maul had not yet wasted, all gathered into one "nigh-unbreachable fortress" waiting for him? Indeed, in that fortress they are "better protected than anywhere else in the galaxy." All of the pertinent quotes can be found in the link below:
Only in the most superficial sense. Yes, he can use sorcery to stun muggles with an incredibly low resistance to these kinds of attacks, and Maul doesn't employ sorcery, therefore Kun is better at defeating muggles. That alone doesn't prove superiority any more than any other false equivalency you could attempt to draw between the two.
Proof Kun had to "maintain" the power? He cast a spell on them and they were stunned, it's said nowhere he needs to maintain it. Much like how Daegen Lok and Darth Zannah were able to drive Force sensitives mad, and experience extremely realistic illusions, despite leaving the battlefield entirely. And for the record, you're going to need to elaborate on why anyone should care that it was someone "like Vodo" Kun was fighting.
Your theory is based on what, exactly? And even if they are on tier 8, which I see no evidence for, that doesn't change the fact that there can be enormous wiggle room within a given tier.
Which is unfortunately said nowhere, and sadly, I doubt you'd let me away with making such a fallacious appeal to authority/rank, so I'm gonna have to reciprocate. Real feats and accolades please.
Which has little basis on the capabilities of individuals who are essentially anomalies not only in their own time period, but throughout all of history.
And Qui-Gon is one of the most skilled pure swordmasters the order has ever produced in 25,000 years. Anoon Bondara was also a "weapons master," who was well regarded in the Order as a master swordsman, some going as far as to say his skill being unequalled, and yet he was both humbled by Qui-Gon Jinn in sparring and absolutely obliterated by Darth Maul despite falling into a defensive shell. So unless you have something better for Vodo, who Kun fought over the course of multiple comic pages filled with extensive dialogue, I'm really struggling to see your point.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Feb 9th, 2018 02:56 AM
