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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » What was Sidious's end goal?


What was Sidious's end goal?
Started by: Kurk

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Galan007
|Imperial Tactician|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Theater of War


 

Huh?

As I have already stated: I personally prefer the Rule of Two to the 'old ways', yes. I also believe the RoT is what allowed the Sith to achieve their ultimate goal of entirely overthrowing Democracy, and ruling over the galaxy with an iron fist -- something the 'old ways' never quite allowed the Sith to achieve... But the latter is more than just my opinion, it's also a fact.

...That certainly doesn't mean I agree with Bane's entire methodology, however -- nor does it mean the RoT is without its own inherent faults/weaknesses.


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"The Grand Admiral was smart and subtle, but never used his brilliance to show up or humiliate anyone.
He demanded results, but never perfection, and had amazing stores of patience for those who were truly working to their fullest ability.
It was a pity Thrawn's style of leadership hadn't spread through the rest of the navy.
If that happened, he suspected, the Empire would stand forever."

Old Post Feb 9th, 2018 09:31 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

Old Sith weren't preoccupied with politics, so...


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Old Post Feb 9th, 2018 11:44 PM
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Galan007
|Imperial Tactician|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Theater of War


 

And that's changes anything I said.... How?


__________________

"The Grand Admiral was smart and subtle, but never used his brilliance to show up or humiliate anyone.
He demanded results, but never perfection, and had amazing stores of patience for those who were truly working to their fullest ability.
It was a pity Thrawn's style of leadership hadn't spread through the rest of the navy.
If that happened, he suspected, the Empire would stand forever."

Old Post Feb 10th, 2018 02:26 PM
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

The RoT was clearly effect but makes no sense on its face. All it takes is one accident...


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Old Post Feb 10th, 2018 02:48 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

Exactly. Outside factors play their parts too.(Jar Jar Binks)


__________________
Azronger: "Nadd is not a Sheevite. He hates Sheev. Avoid him."

Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Feb 10th, 2018 03:48 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
And that's changes anything I said.... How?


Politics includes alliances, financial and military support, etc

On top of that, in Legends, Bane's lineage was broken due to Plagueis allowing Sidious to train Maul. Technically, Plagueis was the last of Bane's legacy. So, no, Rule of Two doesn't get the credit for the Jedi's fall. That's Palpatine's Rule of One(inspired by Plagueis' vision of an everlasting Dark Lord of the Sith)


__________________
Azronger: "Nadd is not a Sheevite. He hates Sheev. Avoid him."

Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Feb 10th, 2018 03:52 PM
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Galan007
|Imperial Tactician|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Theater of War


 

Plagueis only allowed Palpatine to train Maul under the false pretense that Maul was nothing more than a dark side assassin/acolyte(which IS still permitted under the Rule of Two/Banite philosophy.) Unbeknownst to Plagueis, however, Palpatine had been plotting to overthrow/kill him the entire time, and was secretly training Maul as his *own* Sith apprentice.

That said, Plagueis never violated the RoT knowingly. Palpatine technically did, but that was only because he felt that he had nothing more to learn from Plagueis, and knew he would eventually usurp primacy as Sith Master... He was just trying to get a head-start on training an apprentice, because it takes decadeS. IOW, Palpatine infringed upon the RoT, but he did so for reasons that align with Banite teachings.


__________________

"The Grand Admiral was smart and subtle, but never used his brilliance to show up or humiliate anyone.
He demanded results, but never perfection, and had amazing stores of patience for those who were truly working to their fullest ability.
It was a pity Thrawn's style of leadership hadn't spread through the rest of the navy.
If that happened, he suspected, the Empire would stand forever."

Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 10th, 2018 at 04:41 PM

Old Post Feb 10th, 2018 04:30 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

So, you just proved that Sidious trained Maul(because he wanted him to be a true apprentice) whilst still under Plagueis' tutelage. That's already a deviation from Bane's rule even if Sidious had in mind to usurp Plagueis. That's what Sith naturally do, you know. Also, Rule of Two has nothing to do with the conquest of the galaxy(at least, not the Force-wise part)
Rule of Two didn't take the galaxy via Force strength but via cunning, manipulation, and resourcefulness. That's the whole point. So, even if politically it did achieve the Grand Design, it doesn't produce the best and the most powerful Sith Lords.


__________________
Azronger: "Nadd is not a Sheevite. He hates Sheev. Avoid him."

Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Feb 10th, 2018 at 05:14 PM

Old Post Feb 10th, 2018 05:12 PM
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Galan007
|Imperial Tactician|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Theater of War


 

This 'debating' you do is quite something. You basically repeat everything I say, and then pretend like I didn't already say it. You also seem to throw in a few red herrings here and there, which deviate from the point at hand all together. Interesting... It's like you're just trying to argue for arguments sake.


__________________

"The Grand Admiral was smart and subtle, but never used his brilliance to show up or humiliate anyone.
He demanded results, but never perfection, and had amazing stores of patience for those who were truly working to their fullest ability.
It was a pity Thrawn's style of leadership hadn't spread through the rest of the navy.
If that happened, he suspected, the Empire would stand forever."

Old Post Feb 10th, 2018 05:26 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

You said RoT makes the strongest Sith. I said, no. And you disagreed with my response saying that RoT Sith took over the galaxy.


__________________
Azronger: "Nadd is not a Sheevite. He hates Sheev. Avoid him."

Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Feb 11th, 2018 12:35 PM
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Zentrex
Senior Member

Registered: Jan 2018
Location: In between parallel universes


 

Sidious didn't have an end goal. He simply wanted power. He wasn't really going to do anything with it, he just knew he was destined for power. In the Legends continuity it's made pretty clear that he wanted to live forever and stay emperor and just kinda, write books, think about the force, use the force, chill, find more cool things he could do with the force, you know, typical of someone who wants to have eternity to study, have fun, and all.

In the New Canon, it seems like he was going the Vitiate route of letting his power consume him. He became a pawn to the dark side instead of the other way around. I'm not particularly fond of that, but whatever.

Old Post Mar 7th, 2018 09:53 AM
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Galan007
|Imperial Tactician|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Theater of War


 

He absolutely had an end goal:
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
"And [Palpatine] would not allow himself to be sidetracked from his goal of unlocking the secrets many Sith Masters before him had sought -- the means to harness the powers of the dark side to reshape reality itself; in effect, to fashion a universe of his own creation. Not mere immortality of the sort Plagueis had lusted after, but influence of the ultimate sort."

-Tarkin
[novelization]


__________________

"The Grand Admiral was smart and subtle, but never used his brilliance to show up or humiliate anyone.
He demanded results, but never perfection, and had amazing stores of patience for those who were truly working to their fullest ability.
It was a pity Thrawn's style of leadership hadn't spread through the rest of the navy.
If that happened, he suspected, the Empire would stand forever."

Old Post Mar 7th, 2018 12:55 PM
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DarthPlaguis12
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2018
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Old Sith weren't preoccupied with politics, so...


They weren't? They obviously were as the brotherhood of darkness was pretty political

Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 05:59 AM
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DarthPlaguis12
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2018
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
So, you just proved that Sidious trained Maul(because he wanted him to be a true apprentice) whilst still under Plagueis' tutelage. That's already a deviation from Bane's rule even if Sidious had in mind to usurp Plagueis. That's what Sith naturally do, you know. Also, Rule of Two has nothing to do with the conquest of the galaxy(at least, not the Force-wise part)
Rule of Two didn't take the galaxy via Force strength but via cunning, manipulation, and resourcefulness. That's the whole point. So, even if politically it did achieve the Grand Design, it doesn't produce the best and the most powerful Sith Lords.


Darth maul was never a true apprentice...he was just an acolyte, Dooku had many. As the other poster mentioned

The rule of two was meant to keep the Sith a secret so they could take over the Galaxy via cunning, many were merchants etc like Darth Plaguis who created strife throughout the Galaxy as well as sidious who manipulated things via politics. I believe bane was a merchant who created several connections and became very rich.

The rule of two was made to mold strong sith. In Banes time they weren't exactly that powerful and Bane became a lot more powerful then most of them after studying the teachings of Darth Revan. The Sith at this time had given up studying the old ways. As the other poster mentioned Bane taught Zannah everything but as time went on he thought she may not be strong enough to beat him.

He found the secret to essence transfer just in case he needed to live on...he also found a character called the huntress who was to replace Zannah if he she indeed proved too weak, when he finally did meet Zannah to duel her the winner would then get the huntress as their new apprentice, she later went on to become Darth Cogness.

Unknown to bane Zannah did learn new Sith techniques that destroyed his body and he had to try transferring his spirit.

Basically the Sith would become stronger or stay strong via this rule of two...the master would only fall to a strong enough student. Sometimes this came about via the student being stronger like Zannah, other times it happened through cunning like sidious outsmarting Plaguis

The other poster explained this pretty well...

Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 06:14 AM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
They weren't? They obviously were as the brotherhood of darkness was pretty political


Really? When did it ooze through their brains to topple the Republic from within?


__________________
Azronger: "Nadd is not a Sheevite. He hates Sheev. Avoid him."

Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 04:19 PM
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Darth Abonis
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Force Planet


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
The Emperor planned to assimilate the galaxy into his ego, controlling everything and everyone within it, becoming more of a force of nature than an individual being: he would literally become the galaxy. After that he would journey to other galaxies and do the same, as a sort of expansionist entity hellbent on absorbing all of existence into his being. Once the his very name was synonymous with the universe and he would have replaced the Force as the energy field that controls the fates and destinies of all beings and rules of the laws of nature, he would presumably seek to go interdimensional and conquer all the known realities until total and complete omnipotence was attained.


Yeah I think that was his plan with the World between worlds in Rebels.

Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 04:23 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
Darth maul was never a true apprentice...he was just an acolyte, Dooku had many. As the other poster mentioned.


I am pretty sure Maul was more than an acolyte at that time. Plagueis deemed him an 'acolyte', not so sure about Palpatine. If we follow strictly that logic: then Vader wouldn't be a Sith Lord either or Dooku. Since all of them were mere tools to Palpatine.

quote:
The rule of two was meant to keep the Sith a secret so they could take over the Galaxy via cunning, many were merchants etc like Darth Plaguis who created strife throughout the Galaxy as well as sidious who manipulated things via politics. I believe bane was a merchant who created several connections and became very rich.


Yes. This is a point I brought up tooo.

quote:
The rule of two was made to mold strong sith. In Banes time they weren't exactly that powerful and Bane became a lot more powerful then most of them after studying the teachings of Darth Revan. The Sith at this time had given up studying the old ways. As the other poster mentioned Bane taught Zannah everything but as time went on he thought she may not be strong enough to beat him.


There is clearly a confusion here. Bane wanted cunning and knowledgeable Sith. That's what he understood through power.
It doesn't matter what he thought, though. He should have killed Zannah the moment he knew she was weak. But somehow he didn't do that.

quote:
He found the secret to essence transfer just in case he needed to live on...he also found a character called the huntress who was to replace Zannah if he she indeed proved too weak, when he finally did meet Zannah to duel her the winner would then get the huntress as their new apprentice, she later went on to become Darth Cogness.


His own rule clearly states only two should be there: no more, no less. It doesn't matter if he thought Zannah was weak or not. He should have challenged her before taking another apprentice.

quote:
Unknown to bane Zannah did learn new Sith techniques that destroyed his body and he had to try transferring his spirit.


Yes, she was weak in the end. Bane kicked her ass. And she had to use Ambria's nexus to defeat him.

quote:
Basically the Sith would become stronger or stay strong via this rule of two...the master would only fall to a strong enough student. Sometimes this came about via the student being stronger like Zannah, other times it happened through cunning like sidious outsmarting Plaguis


Yes, stronger as in more knowledgeable. Not Force-stronger.
Aforementioned, Zannah was clearly weaker in the Force, that's why he resorted to using Ambria's power to defeat her master.
We have no idea why Cognus chose Millennial. But we do know that Millennial defied the Rule of Two. So most of Rule of Two context is fogged. But much we know that Banite Sith promoted cunning and backstabbing not facing your master in fight.


quote:
"For the last time I call you apprentice and I applaud your skillful use of surprise and misdirection. Perhaps I was wrong to think you had no stomach for it." ―Rugess Nome to his Sith apprentice, Darth Plagueis



quote:
"We Sith are an unseen opposition. A phantom menace. Where the Sith once wore armor, we now wear cloaks. But the Force works through us all the more powerfully in our invisibility." ―Darth Tenebrous to a young Darth Plagueis




quote:
The other poster explained this pretty well...


1. The poster explained the RoT didn't produce Sith Lords more powerful in the Force, but with greater knowledge and were able to overthrow the Republic from within via Palpatine.

2. By the time when Palpatine did overthrow the Republic: he had already abandoned Bane's Rule of Two.
So, you could say: in theory, that Bane's Rule of Two did bring, indirectly, the destruction of the Jedi Order but not the conquest of the galaxy.


__________________
Azronger: "Nadd is not a Sheevite. He hates Sheev. Avoid him."

Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 04:49 PM
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