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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Did Darth Bane Succeed Where The Ancients Failed?


Did Darth Bane Succeed Where The Ancients Failed?
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ILS
Sith Lord

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Did Darth Bane Succeed Where The Ancients Failed?

Two things caught my eye after looking over Rule of Two and Dynasty of Evil.

We'll start with Freedon Nadd, his holocron and the orbalisks. Bane came into possession of Nadd's holocron. Nadd's holocron contains everything Nadd ever learned of the dark side, most notably, he had acquired all of Naga Sadow's own dark side knowledge, which by proxy is contained within. Naga Sadow's teachings were the basis for Exar Kun's own power, the only other notable artifact I can remember being the Dark Holocron, which he obtained while already DLOTS.

Bane, over the course of two decades, presumably harvested all there is to know about the holocron.

Anyway, more to the point, we see Nadd's spectre; he's looking in pretty bad shape, but most notably, we can see that he is human, we can see his skin and so on. We also know from the few images we have of him that his helmet-crown showed his face.
quote:
Though Nadd had been human, his avatar was the image of a man who had succumbed to the physical corruption that sometimes affected those who delved too deeply into the power of the dark side. His skin was pallid, the flesh withered and sunken, and his eyes were glowing yellow orbs devoid of iris or pupil. Despite this, he still appeared as a formidable warrior: broad-shouldered, clad in heavy battle armor and the helm that had doubled as his crown when he had proclaimed himself king over the nearby world of Onderon.
-Rule of Two

We also know that Nadd only had partial success in controlling the power of the Orbalisks. Nadd through his experiments also was able to ascertain that they are impossible to remove, they cause immense physical pain, and if one of the orbalisks is killed, it will release toxins into the host and kill them over the course of a few days. He also identified that they can grow over time until they cover the whole body, and had drawn up schematics for armour which will prevent them from covering vital areas of the body, like the face.
quote:
Through the gatekeeper, Bane learned of the Dark Master's experiments with the orbalisks, and his only partly successful efforts to control their power. He discovered not only what they were called, but also all the details of their ecology. Some of the information merely confirmed what he already knew: once attached to a host the orbalisks could not be removed. But he also learned that, in addition to boosting a host's physical abilities, it was possible to tap into the parasites' ability to feed on the dark side to greatly increase one's own command of the Force.

However, Nadd's research also warned of several dangerous side effects of infestation that went beyond the constant physical pain.

Should one of the organisms somehow be killed, it would release rapidly increasing levels of toxins, killing its host in a matter of days. The orbalisks would also grow over time, slowly spreading until they covered his entire body from head to toe. Fortunately, along with this disturbing revelation, Bane discovered blueprints for a special helmet and face guard designed to keep the parasites from growing over his eyes, nose, and mouth while he slept.
-Rule of Two

Judging by a comparison of Orbalisk Bane and Nadd's appearances, and the description of Nadd, indicates that Nadd never completed this armour blueprint for himself).

My thoughts? It's unclear to what degree Nadd experimented on himself and on other test subjects. For him to find out about the Orbalisks' lethal side effects, he would need to have observed them first hand in order to enter the findings into his holocron. He clearly had plans to one day don the Orbalisk armour himself, but it seems fairly clear that he failed in this endeavour, judging by his depiction in the holocron and his own withered, and Orbalisk-free, physique.

It's possible to conclude that he met his end trying to tame the Orbalisks, they were found inside of his tomb after all. But in any case, he failed to master them.

Bane, on the other hand, was able to master the Orbalisks for a decade, until they covered his entire body, forming a symbiotic bond with them. Therefore, it seems that he succeeded where Nadd failed.

Given that his success with the Orbalisks was purely attributed to his command of the Force, this seems like compelling evidence that Bane was more powerful than Nadd. Add in that he learned everything there is to know from Nadd's holocron, and, that he is demonstrably more powerful by Dynasty of Evil (due to his respective fights against Zannah in RoT and DoE, and his much heightened willpower between the two books), and it further cements the case.

The next observation is quite simple; Bane thought that Force-power boosting artifacts, such as the amulets Exar Kun and Ulic wore, were negligible compared to his own power. He compared them to "a single drop of rain" compared to the "ocean of power he already commanded."
quote:
Bane also collected the treasures of the ancient Sith, but he preferred the wisdom contained in the ancient texts. Zannah knew he looked on the rings, amulets, and other paraphernalia with disdain. The spark of the dark side that burned within them was like a single drop of rain falling into the ocean of power he already commanded; he saw no need to augment his abilities with gaudy jewelry fashioned centuries ago by ancient Sith sorcerers.
-Dynasty of Evil

This is pertinent because, as we know, Bane has learned everything there is to be known about the Dark Side from Nadd and by proxy Naga Sadow, who formed the basis for Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma's own teachings. All four saw it pertinent to hoard and make use of Sith amulets and other trinkets, in fact, upon becoming Exar's apprentice, Ulic Qel-Droma fashions his own amulet into a gauntlet.

Bane would undoubtedly have read a treatise on how to build these amulets during the decades he spent learning from Nadd, and had come across many during his lifetime, and yet he found them negligible to his own power and infinitely less valuable than the Force-secrets offered by the ancient Sith.
quote:
This suited Bane perfectly. He had been able to assemble and expand his library without fear of drawing attention to himself: he was just another Sith fetishist, another anonymous collector obsessed with the dark side, willing to spend a small fortune to possess banned manuscripts and artifacts.

Most of what he had acquired was of little use: amulets or other trinkets of negligible power; secondhand copies of histories he had memorized long ago during his studies on Korriban; incomplete works written in indecipherable, long-dead languages.
-Dynasty of Evil

So in conclusion, Bane seems to have succeeded where the ancients failed in taming the power of the Orbalisks, and grew beyond the need for trinkets that they found incredibly important to their battle prowess.

Two possible counters I see to this are.

1. Bane struggled to create a holocron, indicating his weakness.

2. Bane thought the feats of the ancient Sith were hyperbolic and beyond his own capabilities.

Both concerns are cleared up quite easily. As far as the holocron is concerned:

1. Bane's struggle with creating the holocron was heightened due to the constant pain he suffered at the hands of the Orbalisks, which he had to suppress. By devoting energy to the creation of a holocron, he opened himself up to the unbearable pain and set himself back.

2. Bane's failing with the holocron owed not to a deficiency in power, but in knowledge of one particular secret. He didn't know the "Rite of Commencement," that is to say, he had yet to master a specific ritual which if not done, would lead to failure in every attempt to create a holocron. After learning this secret, he successfully made his holocron.

3. We don't even know how long it took the likes of Nadd to create a holocron, so using it as a benchmark for comparison seems fallacious. Nadd ruled for over a century as DLOTS, plenty of time to study up on holocron creation.

Regarding Bane's awe of the ancient Sith's feats:

quote:
It was an uncomfortable line of speculation, but it was one Bane forced himself to consider. He had read the histories of the great Sith Lords; many were filled with feats almost too incredible to be believed. Yet even if these accounts were true, even if some of his predecessors had had the ability to use the dark side to destroy entire worlds or make a sun go nova, Bane still felt that his power measured up to the described abilities of many of those who had successfully created Holocrons of their own.
-Rule of Two

So, as we can see, he is in awe of Naga Sadow's feat of wrenching out the cores of stars to cause cataclysmic damage. Bane may not be entirely cognisant of the fact that Naga owes nearly all of the credit of this feat to his Sith Corsair, which is the power source he uses to cause such destruction. Simply reading about the feat in historical accounts may have given him the wrong impression.

But despite that feat, Bane felt that based on what he had learned of those who had made holocrons before him, that his powers still measured up to theirs. His only doubts were 1. In his ability to cause supernovas and 2. In his ability to construct holocrons.

Both of his concerns are unnecessary, as neither feat is attributed to one's personal command of the Force independent of external power sources or secret knowledge. So it seems his estimation is otherwise correct, his abilities do measure up to those of the ancient Sith who came before him.


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Last edited by ILS on Feb 8th, 2018 at 05:14 PM

Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 05:10 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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Bane lowballs his predecessors and highballs himself. I don't know what's the deal with these dark side bugs.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 05:13 PM
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The Ellimist
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Nice

DoE Bane > RoT Bane > Freedon Nadd thumb up


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 05:19 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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Where does it even say that? Because Bane says so? Exar also said he was the greatest Sith that ever lived. I don't think that's true, though.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 05:23 PM
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Ursumeles
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Huh, DMB is right, Bane is Kun+. SF Malak vs Bane might be a good match tbh.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 05:34 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
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Also, Rule of Two Darth Zannah receives pretty reliable scaling over Thon. Credit to EmperorDMB and his Darth Zannah respect thread for the following argument.

(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/prof...-thread/124971/

So DOE Bane > Orbalisk Bane >>> ROT Bane w/out Orbalisks >>>> ROT Zannah > Thon

To be clear, RoT Bane without Orbalisks can snap Zannah's neck casually, with the Orbalisks his power multiplied massively, and DoE Bane is even stronger than that.

So Bane would likely waste the dinosaur Jedi.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 05:37 PM
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DarthAnt66
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(please log in to view the image)

The text indicates Freedon Nadd only having partial control means he could not prevent them from mass-replicating or from poisoning him if they die.

Neither could Bane.


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The Ellimist
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You would have to argue that Bane's PoV is deliberately deceptive if it frames the narrative with Nadd being only partially successful in controlling the orbalisks, providing blueprints for orbalisk armor he never completes, Bane completing it, and yet apparently this not clearly implying that Bane got more control than Nadd because Nadd actually thought it was a bad idea or something.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:26 PM
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DarthAnt66
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Nadd's only partially successful in controlling the orbalisks because he could not handle the side-effects.

The text later notes how Bane likewise "fails" in being able to remove them.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:31 PM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The text indicates Freedon Nadd only having partial control means he could not prevent them from mass-replicating or from poisoning him if they die.

Neither could Bane.
The "partly successful efforts to control their power is referring to the possibility to "tap into the parasites' ability to feed on the dark side to greatly increase one's own command of the Force." If it was referring to the negative side-effects, it would say, "the efforts to control their side effects." A further distinction is made after about the side effects.

quote:
Through the gatekeeper, Bane learned of the Dark Master's experiments with the orbalisks, and his only partly successful efforts to control their power. He discovered not only what they were called, but also all the details of their ecology. Some of the information merely confirmed what he already knew: once attached to a host the orbalisks could not be removed. But he also learned that, in addition to boosting a host's physical abilities, it was possible to tap into the parasites' ability to feed on the dark side to greatly increase one's own command of the Force.

However, Nadd's research also warned of several dangerous side effects of infestation [u]that went beyond the constant physical pain.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:33 PM
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The Ellimist
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nadd's only partially successful in controlling the orbalisks because he could not handle the side-effects.

The text later notes how Bane likewise "fails" in being able to remove them.


Nadd didn't even get that far - he never completed the armor.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:34 PM
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The Ellimist
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Seeing as how Exar Kun got his amulet from Freedon Nadd, if Nadd's holocron did not contain instructions on amulet construction it certainly would've mentioned the power of his own, given that Nadd considered collecting such amulets crucial to a Sith Lord's power. This would suggest that Bane was aware of the power of amulets on the order of Exar Kun's, and yet he still showed no interest in finding or creating them.


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Last edited by The Ellimist on Feb 8th, 2018 at 07:48 PM

Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:42 PM
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ILS
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Now all we need is Harrison to come in and explain why authorial intent matters everywhere else but here, and the Bane wank will have come full circle.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:44 PM
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DarthAnt66
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
The "partly successful efforts to control their power is referring to the possibility to "tap into the parasites' ability to feed on the dark side to greatly increase one's own command of the Force." If it was referring to the negative side-effects, it would say, "the efforts to control their side effects." A further distinction is made after about the side effects.


What?

You seem to be arguing two different things here.

On GH, you're arguing Freedon Nadd did not have the "sufficient dark side energy" required to make himself a host for the orbalisks.

However, the quote you're citing is talking about drawing on a power source for strength, which doesn't require power whatsoever, so clearly that is not Nadd's issue.

Nadd being unable to control the orbalisks power and Nadd being unable to control the side-effects are the same thing.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:47 PM
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ILS
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He failed either way. Bane made a full set of armour out of them. Time to get over it instead of hyper-analysing the text, I think.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:49 PM
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The Ellimist
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It seems clear now:

DE Sidious >> RotJ Sidious >> RotS Sidious > EoTPM Sidious >> TPM Sidious > Plagueis >> Tenebrous >> Tenebrous's master >>>>>...>>>>...>>> DoE Bane >> ( (Exar Kun) && (Orbalisk Bane >> RoT Bane >> Freedon Nadd))


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:50 PM
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DarthAnt66
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quote:
The energy had coursed through the orbalisks embedded in his skin, too. The creatures absorbed the power, hungrily devouring it until they became so engorged that the soft, pliant flesh of their underbellies had began to swell. Squeezed ever tighter against the unyielding chitin of their own exterior shells, they'd begun to burrow deeper into Bane. He remembered screaming as thousands of tiny teeth started sawing away at subcutaneous tissue, chewing through muscles, tendons, and even bone.

But burrowing deeper hadn't stopped the creatures from feasting on the electricity coursing through Bane's frying innards. They'd continued to expand until they had begun to pop, rupturing like overfilled balloons pinched beneath the hard shells.


Here's an example of Bane being unable to control the "power" of the orbalisks. When he gets hit with too much power, the orbalisks feed on it to the point they pop.

Nadd can't control things like this - same for Bane.

If anything, it indicates Nadd is so powerful that the orbalisks can't be placed on him.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:51 PM
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Nephthys
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Coming from a Bane supporter, this seems like a pretty arbitrary way to evaluate strength. erm


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:51 PM
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The Ellimist
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Ant continues to ignore the fact that Nadd never completed his armor lmfao


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:53 PM
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DarthAnt66
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Tell me Nadd opting out due to the blatant side-effects is relevant.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:55 PM
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