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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Did Darth Bane Succeed Where The Ancients Failed?


Did Darth Bane Succeed Where The Ancients Failed?
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

We now have two independent lines of scaling:

- Nadd fails to complete the armor, Bane succeeds

- Nadd finds amulets to significantly amplify his powers, Bane thinks they're a minuscule fraction of his


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:56 PM
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Tell me Nadd opting out due to the blatant side-effects is relevant.


Where does it say that...?


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:56 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

It never states Nadd ever attempted the armor in the first place, just that he made the blueprints. no expression


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:57 PM
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It never states Nadd ever attempted the armor in the first place, just that he made the blueprints. no expression


I give your mental gymnastics a 4.5 tbh


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 07:59 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Tell me why I'm wrong.

You're arguing Nadd failed to complete the armor. Says who? Where's that indicated?

As far as I'm concerned, he never started the armor.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 08:00 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Here's an example of Bane being unable to control the "power" of the orbalisks. When he gets hit with too much power, the orbalisks feed on it to the point they pop.

Nadd can't control things like this - same for Bane.

If anything, it indicates Nadd is so powerful that the orbalisks can't be placed on him.

thumb up


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 08:03 PM
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Tell me why I'm wrong.

You're arguing Nadd failed to complete the armor. Says who? Where's that indicated?

As far as I'm concerned, he never started the armor.


If Nadd went through all this research in attempting to control the orbalisks, including blueprints for using it as armor, but then decided that the side effects weren't worth the risks, he would have told Bane, who would have noted or otherwise factored that into his decision making. That Bane's narration would frame this as Nadd trying and failing to control the orbalisks and having blueprints for armor that he never completes but never saying that Nadd told him he decided against making the armor rather than failing to as "partly successful" may imply would suggest one of four things:

- Nadd was deliberately f*cking with Bane (then why would he warn him of the side effects and armor safety mechanisms in the first place?)

- Nadd denigrated himself by pretending he wasn't powerful enough when he just decided not to (LMFAO)

- Bane's PoV narration was deliberately deceptive (which we should believe just because Ant wants to believe it?)

- Nadd tried but failed to make the armor

Seems like option 4 is the most likely.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 08:04 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

I don't think you have any clue what you're talking about.

The orbalisks attach to Bane, so then he consults the Nadd holocron. Nadd's holocron warns of the side-effects, but notes that the armor can be used to help counter one of the side-effects - aka reproducing over the entire body.

Why Nadd opted to not create the orbalisk armor is unknown, but it is likely he still thought the side-effects outweighed the pros. Further, as I noted, orbalisks pop if absorbing too much energy, so Nadd might be so powerful they couldn't be put on him.

Your version of Nadd "failing to make the armor" doesn't make any sense. Nadd never had a full-body of orbalisks on him in the first place, so no armor attempt could ever be made.

The armor, which I don't think you get, is just a safeguard against one of the side-effects. It's not an indication of power by using it, lmfao.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 08:08 PM
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

Funny that Nadd never bothered to mention that he was just too powerful for the orbalisks. You'd think that would've been a pretty important detail for a self-aggrandizing Sith to note.

Already addressed why Nadd probably didn't voluntarily refuse to go as far with orbalisks as Bane had.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 08:11 PM
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

Re a trademarked Ant ninja edit:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The armor, which I don't think you get, is just a safeguard against one of the side-effects. It's not an indication of power by using it, lmfao.


It's an indication of power that Bane was able to use full-body orbalisks. The blueprints suggest Nadd had put a nontrivial amount of effort into trying to do the same.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 08:15 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Funny that Nadd never bothered to mention that he was just too powerful for the orbalisks. You'd think that would've been a pretty important detail for a self-aggrandizing Sith to note.


Sith Holocorns only reveal information that they judge relevant to the powers of the user.

quote:
Already addressed why Nadd probably didn't voluntarily refuse to go as far with orbalisks as Bane had.


Your point did not make any sense.

As far as we know, Freedon Nadd never put the orbalisks on him. Thus, he voluntarily refused to go as far with the orbalisks as Darth Bane did.

You seem to be suggesting Freedon Nadd put orbalisks on him, but then failed to operate them so that they could form a sheet of armor.

That is entirely unsupported, especially since Freedon Nadd does not think they can be removed without killing the user.

Secondly, I do not think the armor has anything to do with power and/or controlling the orbalisks anyway.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 08:15 PM
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sith Holocorns only reveal information that they judge relevant to the powers of the user.




That's funny. It's almost as though earlier you had made it a central argument to brag about how PoD Bane could barely wrap his mind around the rituals and techniques outlined in Darth Revan's holocron. But it's good to note now that Bane as a trainee was more than powerful enough to grasp them all. thumb up

quote:

Your point did not make any sense.

As far as we know, Freedon Nadd never put the orbalisks on him. Thus, he voluntarily refused to go as far with the orbalisks as Darth Bane did.

You seem to be suggesting Freedon Nadd put orbalisks on him, but then failed to operate them so that they could form a sheet of armor.

That is entirely unsupported, especially since Freedon Nadd does not think they can be removed without killing the user.


That Nadd didn't put orbalisks on him (even if this is true) and that he wasn't powerful enough to do so aren't mutually exclusive, given that he clearly put effort into researching them and seems to think Bane could properly use them (unless he's trying to get Bane killed in which case why give the warnings and blueprints?)


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 08:19 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Ellimist


That's funny. It's almost as though earlier you had made it a central argument to brag about how PoD Bane could barely wrap his mind around the rituals and techniques outlined in Darth Revan's holocron. But it's good to note now that Bane as a trainee was more than powerful enough to grasp them all. thumb up


The key is "barely wrap his mind."

I have commonly noted that, if Darth Bane could barely wrap his mind over a lot of Revan's rituals and spells, it is highly likely that there is countless information that is outright not stated.

Regardless, concession accepted.

quote:
That Nadd didn't put orbalisks on him (even if this is true) and that he wasn't powerful enough to do so aren't mutually exclusive, given that he clearly put effort into researching them and seems to think Bane could properly use them (unless he's trying to get Bane killed in which case why give the warnings and blueprints?)


You're backtracking at this point. I noted other reasons why Freedon Nadd might not want to use the orbalisks - a.) he views the side-effects as outweighing the pros b.) he is too powerful to use them.

Your argument that he is outright not powerful enough to handle the orbalisks is, frankly, less supported than my first argument. Using it as definitive is laughable.


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Last edited by Jaggarath on Feb 8th, 2018 at 08:29 PM

Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 08:26 PM
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The key is "barely wrap his mind."

I have commonly noted that, if Darth Bane could barely wrap his mind over a lot of Revan's rituals and spells, it is highly likely that there is countless information that was outright not stated.


Given your own claim that holocrons only reveal relevant information, why would Revan bother telling Bane rituals he could "barely wrap his mind" around unless he thought Bane could successfully pull them off in the future, and perhaps the "barely wrap his mind" around part was just that it was a padawan-equivalent Bane studying his stuff over the course of a week?

Think about how many concepts you'd find trivial after even a few months of study/practice you might be barely able to wrap you mind around the first time you ever hear it.

That means that there's no reason to think that there was more information there Bane couldn't hope to grasp beyond your own wild speculation. Seems to invalidate one of your most prized arguments, but good to note. thumb up

quote:

Regardless, concession accepted.


Given that you just pulled two claims out of your ass, nah. Citation needed.

quote:

You're backtracking at this point. I noted other reasons why Freedon Nadd might not want to use the orbalisks - a.) he views the side-effects as outweighing the pros


Already addressed. Nadd doesn't advise Bane not to use them, he does mention negative side effects but also gives him lots of information to take the armor himself. He didn't say "I'm much more powerful than you and even I was scared of it".

quote:

b.) he is too powerful to use them.


Doubtful given that

- his powers were vastly amplified by amulets that are trivial next to Bane, and

- Nadd was not able to control the side effects

quote:

Your argument that he is outright not powerful enough to handle the orbalisks is, frankly, less supported than my first argument. Using it as definitive is laughable.


He experimented with orbalisks, noted it could be made into armor, was noted to be only partly successful, and then never made it into armor. Bane did, while never noting Nadd decided the risks were too costly which would require his PoV narration to be deliberately deceptive.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 08:35 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Given your own claim that holocrons only reveal relevant information, why would Revan bother telling Bane rituals he could "barely wrap his mind" around unless he thought Bane could successfully pull them off in the future, and perhaps the "barely wrap his mind" around part was just that it was a padawan-equivalent Bane studying his stuff over the course of a week?

Think about how many concepts you'd find trivial after even a few months of study/practice you might be barely able to wrap you mind around the first time you ever hear it.

That means that there's no reason to think that there was more information there Bane couldn't hope to grasp beyond your own wild speculation. Seems to invalidate one of your most prized arguments, but good to note. thumb up


laughing out loud

"Barely wrap his mind" indicates that his mind can still partially understand it. Darth Bane writes down everything Revan says for later study.

quote:
Given that you just pulled two claims out of your ass, nah. Citation needed.


Citation for the Holocron only revealing as much information as necessary?

quote:
Already addressed. Nadd doesn't advise Bane not to use them, he does mention negative side effects but also gives him lots of information to take the armor himself. He didn't say "I'm much more powerful than you and even I was scared of it".


Jesus Christ.

"Nadd doesn't advise Bane not to use them?" The orbalisks are already attached to Darth Bane. What is Freedon Nadd suppose to say: oh, the orbalisks are on you, but make sure not to get orbalisks on you? You're argument is terrible.

quote:
Doubtful given that

- his powers were vastly amplified by amulets that are trivial next to Bane, and

- Nadd was not able to control the side effects


What indication are there that Freedon Nadd used extensive amulets? Besides, that doesn't mean Darth Bane is more powerful than all amulets, lol.

That point and Freedon Nadd not being able to control the side-effects work together. Since Freedon Nadd is so powerful, the side-effects - being unable to be removed without killing the person and multiplying as they grow by feasting - is increased. Thus, for someone like Freedon Nadd, the side-effects would be far more potent than it is for Darth Bane.

quote:
He experimented with orbalisks, noted it could be made into armor, was noted to be only partly successful, and then never made it into armor. Bane did, while never noting Nadd decided the risks were too costly which would require his PoV narration to be deliberately deceptive.


It was noted that he was only partly successful at controlling the orbalisks power, which I noted is likely the side-effects.

As I've stated many times, there are many reasons why Freedon Nadd would opt not to make it into armor.

The PoV narration is not deceptive in not mentioning Freedon Nadd decided the risks were too costly. That has nothing to do with the actual storyline. Darth Bane has the orbalisks on him whether he wants it or not. Now, if Darth Bane listened to the Holocron then went to put on the orbalisks you would have a point.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 08:56 PM
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NewGuy01
perpetual

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: USA


 

As retarded as the idea of Nadd being "too powerful to wear Orbalisks" sounds, I'm also getting the the distinct impression that Ellimist has never read RoT.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 09:18 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Sometimes you have to fight cancer with cancer.


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"The Emperor had three-hundred years to break this man . . . and he never succumbed?"

Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 09:19 PM
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

Concession accepted on that argument then...?

I'll get to the rest of your post later.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 09:22 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

No, I stand by it as a more legitimate possibility than Freedon Nadd being unable to use the orbalisks due to a lack of power.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 09:24 PM
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Nephthys
The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Registered: Dec 2007
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Obviously the only reason someone wouldn't want a suit of armor that constantly shreds all your flesh to pieces and sends you into berserk rampages is that they're too weak to handle the powah. There's literally no other reason possible.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2018 09:29 PM
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