Yes. More or less. Clearly I did not take all of Superman's total appearances, and average that out for when he displays notable super-speed, and do the same for Angela. The sheer number of appearances under his belt would make it statistically pointless.
Are you for real?
Well, at least your little lesson with me has stopped you challenging everyone to a battle zone every other thread. So your humiliation served some meaningful purpose.
We can definitely agree to disagree Riv, and with no bile whatsoever. After all, we are debating fictional characters that shoot fire from their eyes and wield flying hammers.
What I would like to raise though is your use of straw man arguments and red herrings, which is a bit unfortunate since you’re a good poster/debater that doesn’t have to rely on fallacies to make a point. I wouldn’t bother doing this if you were, say, Carver, Wolverine 888 or RealityWarper.
- You mention Superman is not a speedster because he doesn’t consistently move at superspeed as his main power. That’s an informal fallacy because we know that Superman is not only able to move at high levels of superspeed, but his speed levels are fast enough to beat all but the very fastest of DC characters that move fast. He is not the fastest, but apart from some high level Speed Force users (best examples being Wally and Barry), and some time-manipulators (Zolomon), he can hang with the best of them. He is definitely a super speedster, and while speed may not be his ONLY power it is definitely one of the MAIN powers. In DC most bricks tend to have some measure of speed ...with characters like Martian Manhunter, WonderWoman, etc being shown to move at speeds faster than (say) Quicksilver at Marvel is regularly depicted moving at. Even a character like Black Adam was shown moving at Mach 500
Point is: While Superman may not have speed as his main power (singular), it is one of the main powerS (plural) that he has. And he has it at such a level that he can keep up (most of the time) with elite SS like the Flash, even though they can dial speed up higher than he can.
- As for posters giving him a win by making him a ‘FlaSuperman,’ that’s a weak argument from you since he is actually fast enough to pull off a similar move. Another poster showed him doing exactly that to WonderWoman, who was ironically holding a blade, and is definitely skilled with weapons ...and got backhanded. Superman using speed against Thor is not the same as the Hulk using speed against Thor. One can actually be able to use speed.
- The use of Karate Kid was a straight straw man, and the only response to that is (i) the only person who raised that was you and (ii) I believe I clearly stated that pure skill wise Thor is better with weapons than Superman is. The Odinson was probably born with a blade in his hand.
Anyway, we can agree to disagree. No skin off either of our backs, and unlike many posters here I don’t think either of us feel they get a salary from DC or Marvel (hence no need to wank a character one way or the other). Thor winning, or Superman winning, doesn’t change a thing.
But posting without fallacies is important. Superman is not, and will never be, Karate Kid. Superman does not, and will likely never (unless some writer gets carried away) have greater weapon skills than Thor. However, Superman has very high level speed abilities, and whether one calls him a speedster or not, no one can argue he is unable to deploy high level speed.
I think you could repeat the "Superman speed" argument in about any thread regarding the character, which isn't either terribly valuable nor terribly appealing, it's the kind of discussion where people camp in their positions and stay in there throwing feats back and forth.
This is why I believe the only person who brought a relevant argument in that regard is not other than yours truly, the awesome Bentley
If superspeed is allowed, Thor gets punked. If it isn't, then ? . Unless we use some composite average, in which case, we are back to scenario 2.
Except the lip service of Thor born "with a sword in his hand" and the assumedly superior melee capacities he carries are pretty irrelevant 90% of his showings. If you dismiss Superman's superspeed as too scarce to be properly valid in a fight and "not something that happens in comics", fighting skills displayed by Thor on average aren't anything to write about either. So anyone intellectually honest would agree that if Superman doesn't have the speed advantage, then Thor doesn't carry any specific skill edge, as the reasoning to dismiss both is the same.
Obviously this is exactly the way discussion went in the last 4 pages, but I thought it be better that I wrap up everything with a nice ribbon so we can all shake hands and call it a day.
That great, but I assumed the purpose of the thread was to see who'd win a sword fight. It doesn't matter how much more skilled you are if you're moving in slow motion, so the purpose of the thread would seem to be defeated.
So if the point is, who's going to win a sword fight, based on skill like I assume it is, then Thor has the better showings that I know of.
If it's a melee with swords in play, then Superman.
Then....do they have speed, one of their (as in, I actually think Thor too has a measure of superspeed?
If not, why not?
If you want to make it competitive, depower both. Not just one side.
Not talking about powers which are extraneous to a sword fight, like HV and the power of a thousand winds. But speed, strength, skill and durability. All abilities which all sword fighters use and hone.
Thor has the skill advantage. We certainly seem to be agreed in giving it to him. Yet Supermans speed abilities mysteriously disappear because people don't like it?
Ignoring super speed to make sense of a full skill fight seems logical. Your assesment is a sensible one.
But if the logic is that Superman cannot use Superspeed in a random fight because it's scarce (not my logic), we could argue Thor doesn't use skill either on average. If we adhere to that reasoning, even in an equalized speed fight Thor gets effectively nerfed.
I agree, Thor is hardly a master fighter in most of his fights, and if we depower Superman so as to make it a battle to discuss in the first place, the same same should apply to Thor, but because the 'point' (I think) is a skill match, nerfing his skill or their skills would go against the spirit of the thread.
If that's not the point, and Superman gets his full speed, then it becomes a non fight. Just trying to avoid a speed blitz thread essentially.
Thor does have a measure of super speed, but just as Luke Cage has a measure of strength, it wouldn't compare to the Hulk for example, which may as well be the difference in their speed.
That's not why, and it may be someone elses' argument but certainly not mine. The skill advantage for Thor is great, but the speed advantage for Superman makes it a non fight. That's why I assume it's not the point of the thread, and that leaves skill to be taken into account, which favors Thor.
It would defeat the purpose of the thread is what I'm saying.
Make up your mind. Is it yes, more or less or clearly?
You said she is as fast as Superman in 90% of his fights. How does this counts in appearances? Superman doesn't uses his Superspeed in all his appearances.
Are you ready to back this up or back away like the coward you are?
Yes, and your obsession with clean water in India is disturbing.
Who got humiliated there is up for debate but if you are such a master debater you will have no issues taking on Philosophía?
That scene was what first popped up in my mind when I read the thread, too.
I also assumed it would be made with both of them depowered, but...OP had other plans.
If both of them are depowered and it's JUST sword fighting, I give it to Thor, tbh. It wouldn't be a walk in the park at all, given Superman's experience, but eventually he'd win.
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Last edited by Philosophía on Feb 16th, 2018 at 12:35 PM