I said my argument doesn't have to reconcile itself with all the EU fluff, I never said that it didn't have to involve the EU at all. Of course it does.
Which is ironic, since you're the one in his initial post who dismisses wholesale the accolades that put the PT as the height of Jedi power because it doesn't fit in with your notion of how the EU works.
Which is irrelevant, since that same logic would require Dooku - an avowed Makashi duelist - to be a better duelist or more effective warrior than either Windu or Yoda, who are not Makashi practitioners, when we know in fact he's not. Not to mention that this, again, refers back to EU fluff.
Yes, he's unquestionably wiser and more intelligent than any of his predecessors.
Citation needed that widespread appeal with the greater population was the impetus for Jedi reform?
I never said nor suggested he couldn't have defeated them outright through force. I'm saying ultimately it's a strategy that has never worked in the past, which is part and parcel of why Palpatine didn't employ it.
So... what you're saying is Luke defeats the Emperor by not fighting him. That's almost like it was my point.
It wasn't a fight and Vader died in the attempt. Hope that wasn't a spoiler.
You're certainly free to disagree with his thoughts on the matter, I just find them more credible than yours since your argument presently lacks evidence to support it.
I'll hunt it down.
The correct course of action to prevent a purge would probably be to not let yourself be put in a position where a purge is likely. Which is one of the elements of the ROTS novel: by fighting at all, the Jedi lost.
Hey, you were the one who cited him, I'm just letting you hang yourself with a noose of your own design.
Except the Emperor at Endor, which is the point.
Ultimately, you've done little to undermine my argument, perhaps because you fundamentally misunderstand it. So I'll try to be more clear: given the narrative facts concerning the prequel trilogy, it makes the most thematic sense for the Jedi order to be at the height of their martial prowess during that time because of the very nature of their defeat and the means by which the new Jedi order ultimately triumphs over evil at Endor. I don't claim that because this makes the most thematic sense that it perfectly aligns itself with all aspects of the EU. I'm saying that in spite of the fact that the EU tells us Niman was favored by the prequel Jedi over Makashi, it still makes the most sense.
@Ziggy if you agree the PT Jedi have the most outlier Force powers like Yoda, then what are you saying when you disagree? That the average PT Jedi isn’t as good?
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The Sith failed the 'test' during those days because the Jedi were continously training and fighting wars. Ergo, they were forced to improve their combat skills, et cetera.
The PT was called the Golden Age of the Jedi because the galactic conflict between these two factions was over.
Plagueis himself admits that the old Jedi>the modern Jedi.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Feb 17th, 2018 at 01:11 PM
This precisely. Jedi individually of the PT era are a match for the Sith Lords in overall ability, whereas in the Ancient eras, aside from Revan and HoTLander, there really aren't Jedi who can match their individual Sith rivals one-on-one. And even in the case of Revan, he got stomped by his main counterpart.
I mean, Palpatine and Yoda? Obi Wan and Maul?
Not to mention, two more Jedi on Palpatine's general level, Mace and Anakin. Both superior to Dooku( to whom Obi Wan is reasonably close to) the second best Sith Lord of the era. In the meantime, you have other Masters in Plo Koon who can go toe to toe with Sith apprentices like Ventress and even demonstrate superiority.
It is pretty obvious that the Jedi numbers "dwindling" and the Jedi being the most powerful ever go hand in hand, i.e., you have more power( of the light side) concentrated in fewer Jedi, and the order as a whole is more powerful than it ever was leading to the production of a great many outstanding individuals and the bettering of the order as a whole. And let's face it, a thousand years of the light side growing stronger and stronger, would obviously mean that the Jedi would have grown stronger too.
Let's have a look at the ancient eras with Odan Urr, the so called "grandmaster" of the time back then. Looking at that, he has great hype, but in a one-on-one confrontation with his counterpart, he got one-shotted. Vodo Siosk Baas the next great Master got promptly owned as well. Bane's era? Laughable. The so called "champion" of the Jedi Order in SWTOR, needs PIS and his enemy to be incredibly weakened in order to even touch him. Satele( the Grand Master of her era) and Malgus who though pretty high, is nowhere near the absolute top? I can go on and on, but the point is clear-No Jedi in any era save for the PT era is a match for their counterpart Sith Lord one-on-one( I may forget a name or two, but nowhere to the extent that it is so in the PT era).
I also like the so called reasoning that years and years of continuous war would make the Jedi Order much more powerful. Funny, the Jedi of 1000 BBY had a "thousand" years of continuous battle experience and not just with any opponents but with the Sith themselves. You'd have thought that they would grow so powerful, they'd run around one-shotting their opponents like they were flies, but no, we get the same old story. Worse in fact, because the Jedi Order was at its utter weakest at this point to the point that they would recruit force sensitive rats just to help them win the war out of sheer desperation, a war they were losing somewhat soundly to the Sith who were themselves at their weakest ever by far. In fact, without the intervention of Darth Bane, the Jedi would have lost right then and there.
To summarize-
1. The Jedi had bathed the galaxy in a light side nexus for close to a thousand years one which obviously would have grown stronger with time, and the Jedi logically too would have.
2. The Jedi numbers are at a pretty low in this era, which means that the power of the light side is concentrated in fewer individuals leading to stronger individuals among the Jedi. This coupled with the fact that the light side grew stronger and stronger( you can argue that it would have been at its strongest ever) and you have much more powerful individual Jedi than otherwise.
3. The Jedi had a thousand more years to advance their order, to grow and to learn. Note that at this point in history, their position is unique-At no other point in history has the Order come off from fighting a war with the dark side itself and their arch-enemies for a full thousand years and won. The experience, knowledge and wisdom they would have gained from this would be monumentally bigger than at any other point in history. And as said in ROTS the Jedi were training to refight the last war, which means that they did focus on combative prowess above all else, only, those efforts would be utterly optimized by their cumulative experience and knowledge obtained from 1000 years of continuous war with the Sith which is a privilege they have never had ever. And as a result, the Jedi produced would obviously be a lot better than ever before.
4. We have exceptional Jedi of the era being able to match the exceptional Sith Lords of the era( actually the only Sith Lords of the era because there are just two or three, but those are incredibly exceptional) one-on-one, and then some. At no other point, have Jedi been able to match their Sith counterparts successfully, barring one or two one-off examples like Meetra vs Traya across all ages whereas there are almost scores of them in the PT era. And note that each Sith Lord in this era is one of the most powerful ever, with Tyranus and Maul easily being in the top 15 Sith Lords of all time( the former in top 10) and Palpatine being the most powerful Sith Lord ever, so it is not some run of the mill Sith Lords we are discussing here. It stands to simple reason that the lower level Jedi would be proportionately more powerful than their previous counterparts as would be the exceptional ones by simple induction.
5. And finally, a great many quotes objectively stating the Jedi of the era to be the best ever, including the WoG from the creator of the SW universe itself.
So, yeah, there is really no credible argument to be made that can assert that the Jedi of this era are not the best of all time. Even if one isn't convinced by the mountain of evidence directly asserting exactly that, it is obvious that of all the eras this one has the best shot. And by far.
Last edited by LordOfTheLight on Feb 18th, 2018 at 05:14 PM
That and as of the Jedi Path, the PT Jedi do train themselves against holoprojected versions of past Sith Lords. This including Darth Ruin, Lord Kaan, Darth Desolous and other Sith of the past.
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Last edited by Zenwolf on Feb 18th, 2018 at 05:26 PM
An error in sentence structuring. What I meant was-"It is more credible that the Jedi are the best ever in this time, since the Jedi numbers dwindling and the light side growing stronger over close to 1000 years go hand in hand".
Quit with that light side 'shroud'. Only Plagueis believed that. There's no light side bathing the galaxy.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Feb 16th, 2018 11:23 PM
