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why TLJ WAS NOT a movie of feminism or equality
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Nephthys
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Re: why TLJ WAS NOT a movie of feminism or equality

quote: (post)
Originally posted by aalyasecura95
hello i have returned to talk about the last jedi and its implications on feminism and equality. many have been saying that this is a milestone for equality and white males have been going crazy about it which is usually a good sign. however after seeing the last jedi shortly after it was released and reflecting since then i think this is a whitewashed view of the film. yes the film made many steps to include women and the other cultures but there is a long way to go before true equality.

let's first look at the main protagonists of the last jedi. luke, rey, finn and rose. first this may seem like equality because we have two minorities and two white ppl. however this ignores that the white luke and rey were far more significant in the story. for example many have pointed out that finn and roses storyline was basically pointless and didn't change much. and this is unfortunately correct and probably explained by rian johnson who once joked about just having finn in a coma for the entire movie. that shocking quote alone reveals that this movie was not the liberating move as it was advertized. so basically the two main and significant protagonist remained white whereas the minority characters were relegated to the background. now you may point out that the main protagonists listed above have a gender balance and that makes it okay? unfortunately that is not the case. rey's role as an empowered woman was greatly diminished in this movie. this was partly due to luke's potrayal in the movie where he snubbed and mansplained to rey and was reluctant to train her despite earlier training a white male kylo and an entire academy. the way he treated her was disgusting and unlike the luke we know. and then there was the end of the movie where kylo literally says that rey is a nobody and that she did not have any special origins. both luke and anakin got special origins but rey is excluded.

now it is a more pleasant picture when we look at the more minor protagonists. for example poe is demonstrated as the embodiment of toxic masculinity but he is put down by admiral holdo who is portrayed as a strong and smart woman who all women can relate to in having to deal with ******* men. also leias so called superman scene was very empowering and her thwarting of poe's dumbass coup was a high point. however these factors do not outweigh the sidelining of the minorities and diminishment of rey as an empowered woman.

and unfortunately the inadequacies are further laid bear when we look at the antagonists of this film. both kylo and snoke are white men who attempt to use rey as a tool. the interactions between kylo and rey also suggest the start of a relationship which could further threaten reys status as an independent woman. captain phasma is a woman but she is horribly sidelined and killed off in a disgusting act. the codebreaker DJ is also a white male and he exploits and manipulates the two minority characters in the film which makes them appear idiotic and makes there important mission a failure. general hux is also a white male in a position of power with no equality among the first order ranks. however the first order is meant to be a replica of the nazis so this is not to be expected.

perhaps my biggest problem with the last jedi is that it ultimately did not make up for star wars decades of white male domination and unfair treatment towards women. in the original trilogy, leia was only one of four women who had a speaking role and even she was grossly sexualized in rotj. equality got better in the prequels with female characters like padme but even she was treated creepily by anakin and was depicted as powerless against him. star wars made a step forward in the force awakens and rouge one via a female protagonist but that protagonist was still white and also there was still a insufficient level of diversity in the rest of the films. the last jedi was ultimately a step forward but not enough to make it a truly feminist movie. those are my thoughts on the last jedi and thank you for reading.


Just a few thoughts from my own feminist perspective:

1) Finn and Roses storyline had plenty of relevance to the plot. I heartily disagree with people in this criticism. Finn goes from trying to flee the rebellion to trying to sacrifice himself for it and their plot is highly relevant to the chase plotline, even if its only to contribute to the failure of Holdo's plan.

2) Lukes "mansplaining" was actually wrong and Rey was largely in the right. For all his attempts to teach her that the Jedi must die she dismisses that viewpoint and proves that Jedi are still needed to protect the galaxy, with Luke ultimately being swayed to her position in the end.

3) Rey not having special origins yet still being able to compete with the special Skywalker bloodline is actually a huge positive in her favor.

4) Having white male villains do villainous things towards the heroes isn't a mark against a films message of feminism.

5) I do largely agree with you that SW has been white male dominated for the majority of its history and deserves criticism as such. I don't think its really fair to blame TLJ for that though or to say it isn't feminist because of the previous movies.


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Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 06:21 PM
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aaylasecura95
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stigma
Sam Harris is solid, but overrated. Try the classics first.
excuse me but sam harris has showed sympathy for so called 'race realism' which says blacks are inferior to whites. he has also said many questionable things about muslims and their faith.


__________________
"Probably my worst quality is that I get very passionate about what I think is right." - Hillary Clinton.
"I don't feel no ways tired. I've been too far, from where I started from. Nobody told me that the road would be easy! I don't believe he brought me this far to leave me! "- Rev. James Cleaveland
yesterday, today, and tomorrow - the fight continues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFwRkNWx-n0
love and kindness:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHp69F7vrLU

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 06:21 PM
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Stigma
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by aalyasecura95
excuse me but sam harris has showed sympathy for so called 'race realism' which says blacks are inferior to whites. he has also said many questionable things about muslims and their faith.

Indeed.


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"I judged the Poles by their enemies. And I found it was an almost unfailing truth that their enemies were the enemies of magnanimity and manhood. If a man loved slavery, if he loved usury, if he loved terrorism and all the trampled mire of materialistic politics, I have always found that he added to these affections the passion of a hatred of Poland. She could be judged in the light of that hatred; and the judgment has proved to be right."

--- G.K. Chesterton

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 06:23 PM
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aaylasecura95
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@nephthys: those are some interesting perspectives. it will be interesting to see where they go in the next movie. without rian johnson there may be an opportunity for greater importance for characters like finn. because although you raise a good point about that storyline being more important than most say, it is clear that finns role is downgraded from the first movie. also that is an interesting silver lining in reys origins but it sounded a lot more disappointing when i first saw it.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stigma
Indeed.
so why would you call him solid?? he spreads racist ideals that have no place in our society and also preaches hate about muslims in the same way donald trump does.


__________________
"Probably my worst quality is that I get very passionate about what I think is right." - Hillary Clinton.
"I don't feel no ways tired. I've been too far, from where I started from. Nobody told me that the road would be easy! I don't believe he brought me this far to leave me! "- Rev. James Cleaveland
yesterday, today, and tomorrow - the fight continues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFwRkNWx-n0
love and kindness:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHp69F7vrLU

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 06:41 PM
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Kurk
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by aalyasecura95
okay so you agree my facts are correct but just don't understand feminist theory. if so then i recommend feminists such as anita sarkeesian and kat blaque to get you started and then read up on feminist literature.

that is what the gamergate trolls say but did you know the same people were sending her death threat?? they are clearly trying to silence her.

and GTA V obviously allows the objectification and violence against women. there are prostitutes that can be abused and many other violent aspects.
No sweetie, the women you mentioned are mainstream hacks.

I'll stick to Shulamith Firestone, Monique Wittig, and Marge Piercy, among other true feminists.

I don't condone death threats or censorship from either side. Unfortunately Sarkeesian herself tried to sue her internet "trolls" which regardless of your political stances just looks immature and demonstrates a lack of tolerance.

Are you saying GTA V gives preferential treatment for killing women over men?

This video best sums up why Sarkeesian doesn't know jackshit about video games and exploits the ignorance of non-gamers (I don't support this man's side-comments or channel though):


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Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 07:02 PM
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aaylasecura95
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i am not a 'sweetie' thank you. and gta V objectifies women and shows them as prostitutes and allows gruesome violent acts to be committed against them. it shows them as objects to be used by men. this article on tumblr has a quote that explains it perfectly.:

https://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/615...cept-to-portray

quote:
GTA V has little room for women except to portray them as strippers, prostitutes, long-suffering wives, humorless girlfriends and goofy, new-age feminists we're meant to laugh at. Characters constantly spout lines that glorify male sexuality while demeaning women, and the billboards and radio stations of the world reinforce this misogyny, with ads that equate manhood with sleek sports cars while encouraging women to purchase a fragrance that will make them "smell like a *****." Yes, these are exaggerations of misogynistic undercurrents in our own society, but not satirical ones. With nothing in the narrative to underscore how insane and wrong this is, all the game does is reinforce and celebrate sexism. The beauty of cruising in the sun-kissed Los Santos hills while listening to "Higher Love" by Steve Winwood turns sour really quick when a voice comes on the radio that talks about using a woman as a urinal.


__________________
"Probably my worst quality is that I get very passionate about what I think is right." - Hillary Clinton.
"I don't feel no ways tired. I've been too far, from where I started from. Nobody told me that the road would be easy! I don't believe he brought me this far to leave me! "- Rev. James Cleaveland
yesterday, today, and tomorrow - the fight continues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFwRkNWx-n0
love and kindness:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHp69F7vrLU

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 07:29 PM
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Stigma
Freedom Fighter

Registered: Jul 2013
Location: Poland


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by aalyasecura95
so why would you call him solid?? he spreads racist ideals that have no place in our society and also preaches hate about muslims in the same way donald trump does.

Because he is logical is many instances, but not so much in others. He's OK, but not great. Solid.

Sam Harris preaches hate? How do you mean?


__________________
"I judged the Poles by their enemies. And I found it was an almost unfailing truth that their enemies were the enemies of magnanimity and manhood. If a man loved slavery, if he loved usury, if he loved terrorism and all the trampled mire of materialistic politics, I have always found that he added to these affections the passion of a hatred of Poland. She could be judged in the light of that hatred; and the judgment has proved to be right."

--- G.K. Chesterton

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 07:31 PM
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Nephthys
The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Registered: Dec 2007
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Sarkeesian is pretty bad, yeah. Or at least fairly mediocre. But the frothing rage she inspires is honestly quite disturbing and certainly comes from a sexist place. Whatever the faults of her content, they are completely outweighted by the glimpse into the fragile male ego and toxicity of nerd culture the absurd backlash to her inspired. In this sense shes a very interesting figure.


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Last edited by Nephthys on Mar 3rd, 2018 at 07:46 PM

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 07:42 PM
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Total Warrior
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Re: why TLJ WAS NOT a movie of feminism or equality

quote: (post)
Originally posted by aalyasecura95
hello i have returned to talk about the last jedi and its implications on feminism and equality. many have been saying that this is a milestone for equality and white males have been going crazy about it which is usually a good sign. however after seeing the last jedi shortly after it was released and reflecting since then i think this is a whitewashed view of the film. yes the film made many steps to include women and the other cultures but there is a long way to go before true equality.

let's first look at the main protagonists of the last jedi. luke, rey, finn and rose. first this may seem like equality because we have two minorities and two white ppl. however this ignores that the white luke and rey were far more significant in the story. for example many have pointed out that finn and roses storyline was basically pointless and didn't change much. and this is unfortunately correct and probably explained by rian johnson who once joked about just having finn in a coma for the entire movie. that shocking quote alone reveals that this movie was not the liberating move as it was advertized. so basically the two main and significant protagonist remained white whereas the minority characters were relegated to the background. now you may point out that the main protagonists listed above have a gender balance and that makes it okay? unfortunately that is not the case. rey's role as an empowered woman was greatly diminished in this movie. this was partly due to luke's potrayal in the movie where he snubbed and mansplained to rey and was reluctant to train her despite earlier training a white male kylo and an entire academy. the way he treated her was disgusting and unlike the luke we know. and then there was the end of the movie where kylo literally says that rey is a nobody and that she did not have any special origins. both luke and anakin got special origins but rey is excluded.

now it is a more pleasant picture when we look at the more minor protagonists. for example poe is demonstrated as the embodiment of toxic masculinity but he is put down by admiral holdo who is portrayed as a strong and smart woman who all women can relate to in having to deal with ******* men. also leias so called superman scene was very empowering and her thwarting of poe's dumbass coup was a high point. however these factors do not outweigh the sidelining of the minorities and diminishment of rey as an empowered woman.

and unfortunately the inadequacies are further laid bear when we look at the antagonists of this film. both kylo and snoke are white men who attempt to use rey as a tool. the interactions between kylo and rey also suggest the start of a relationship which could further threaten reys status as an independent woman. captain phasma is a woman but she is horribly sidelined and killed off in a disgusting act. the codebreaker DJ is also a white male and he exploits and manipulates the two minority characters in the film which makes them appear idiotic and makes there important mission a failure. general hux is also a white male in a position of power with no equality among the first order ranks. however the first order is meant to be a replica of the nazis so this is not to be expected.

perhaps my biggest problem with the last jedi is that it ultimately did not make up for star wars decades of white male domination and unfair treatment towards women. in the original trilogy, leia was only one of four women who had a speaking role and even she was grossly sexualized in rotj. equality got better in the prequels with female characters like padme but even she was treated creepily by anakin and was depicted as powerless against him. star wars made a step forward in the force awakens and rouge one via a female protagonist but that protagonist was still white and also there was still a insufficient level of diversity in the rest of the films. the last jedi was ultimately a step forward but not enough to make it a truly feminist movie. those are my thoughts on the last jedi and thank you for reading.
I agree with you aayla, great post. Boys nowadays are so insecure that as soon as they see a woman who’s not your typical damsel in distress they start seeing feminism everywhere.


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Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 07:52 PM
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DarthPlaguis12
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2018
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Hollywood is full of crap...this film is about feminism blah blah blah, then if it under performs it's the fault of sexist fans.

The movie has issues that have nothing to do with race, sex, etc

They have a weak emo kid as the main bad guy and treated the more interesting villain as a throw away.

As for Rey as much as they'd like her to be a new Star Wars icon, we just don't connect with her like we did with Luke skywalker. He was loved for his character, the way he interacted with other characters.

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 08:17 PM
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Haschwalth
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OK aayla must be a troll.

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 08:34 PM
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aaylasecura95
Senior Member

Registered: Jul 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Haschwalth
OK aayla must be a troll.
no i am not a troll or a sock as i have said on many occasions. you can look up on-line about feminist critiques regarding the last jedi. there are not many unfortunately but they are there and echo my criticisms.


__________________
"Probably my worst quality is that I get very passionate about what I think is right." - Hillary Clinton.
"I don't feel no ways tired. I've been too far, from where I started from. Nobody told me that the road would be easy! I don't believe he brought me this far to leave me! "- Rev. James Cleaveland
yesterday, today, and tomorrow - the fight continues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFwRkNWx-n0
love and kindness:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHp69F7vrLU

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 08:35 PM
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Haschwalth
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by aalyasecura95
no i am not a troll or a sock as i have said on many occasions. you can look up on-line about feminist critiques regarding the last jedi. there are not many unfortunately but they are there and echo my criticisms.


There is always two sides to an argument. Unfortunately they are all not equal in quality.

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 08:39 PM
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DarthPlaguis12
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Registered: Mar 2018
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All I say when I see Rey on screen is damn that's one cute chick, Kylo should grow a set and just tap that hard...use the force Kylo...use the force!

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 10:57 PM
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JKBart
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why lol
flat chest
average ass


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Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 11:03 PM
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Zentrex
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Oh, no. I assumed that this would get ignored and lost quickly, and thus refrained from commenting. Am regretting decision.

So, as for the actual things stated in your original post, the movie was a movie. It had people in it. That's about as much it needs to be fair. The gender/race of the characters should not be taken into account. Simply even noticing the race/gender of the characters stereotypes them and puts them in boxes. I'm willing to bet that the creators were sitting around a table, thinking about where to put each character so that all people could be equal. A man and a woman (Rey and Kylo) were equals in their arc. Another man and another woman (Finn and Rose) were equals. A black person and a white person were equals in their arc together (Finn and Poe). I mean, you could really have argued that it was "anti-white" because Poe had such a small role/arc compared to Finn, as they were considered equals in the Force Awakens (same could be said about TFA)

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is noticing race and gender. These are just people. That's all that matters. No need to MAKE the "black one" and "woman" and "white man" characters based on these identities. Because these identities are superficial. Cosmetic. Unimportant.

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 11:20 PM
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JKBart
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zentrex
Oh, no. I assumed that this would get ignored and lost quickly, and thus refrained from commenting. Am regretting decision.

So, as for the actual things stated in your original post, the movie was a movie. It had people in it. That's about as much it needs to be fair. The gender/race of the characters should not be taken into account. Simply even noticing the race/gender of the characters stereotypes them and puts them in boxes. I'm willing to bet that the creators were sitting around a table, thinking about where to put each character so that all people could be equal. A man and a woman (Rey and Kylo) were equals in their arc. Another man and another woman (Finn and Rose) were equals. A black person and a white person were equals in their arc together (Finn and Poe). I mean, you could really have argued that it was "anti-white" because Poe had such a small role/arc compared to Finn, as they were considered equals in the Force Awakens (same could be said about TFA)

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is noticing race and gender. These are just people. That's all that matters. No need to MAKE the "black one" and "woman" and "white man" characters based on these identities. Because these identities are superficial. Cosmetic. Unimportant.


Being serious for a while, ignoring the obviously 'tarded or trolling OP, this is a perfect post. I entirely, purely agree.

Nobody had problems with Jyn Erso in R1, nobody had problem that the Rogue One protags were "diverse". All of these characters were in their place, there wasn't any feeling of a forced agenda or a useless character just there to be different.


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They are angry because they have been forced to recognize that their hour has arrived; that the time has come to surrender power to Shimrra and the new order."

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2018 11:32 PM
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DarthPlaguis12
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Registered: Mar 2018
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I don't think anyone has a problem with her being female it's just that they made other mistakes that hurt the film, Kylo being a cry baby, killing Snoke, killing Han Solo when it didn't even fully turn Kylo. Same with rogue one, didn't care it was a chick, I didn't like agitated at krennic being a weak villain, I did enjoy Vader making an appearance

Also at JkBart

Lol....she looks cute to me

Old Post Mar 4th, 2018 12:54 AM
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Trocity
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Mansplaining... toxic masculinity...


Cringe level over 9000. Do me a favour and shove a rusty fishing knife up your fvcking vagina, you total pussy.


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Old Post Mar 4th, 2018 03:11 AM
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DarthPlaguis12
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Bro calm down, have a cup of hot tea, then go stick a new cork in your man fanny.

Old Post Mar 4th, 2018 03:16 AM
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