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Fantomex Vs Sensor Girl
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Senor Cage
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Legion flight ring, anyone? If she can dodge attacks from Emerald Empress and others, fantomex's guns won't pose any new threat.

Old Post Mar 10th, 2018 06:34 PM
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leonidas
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Originally posted by StyleTime
I disagree. We've retroactively applied Remender to Morrison in this case. Fantomex's misdirection was literal then. He read body language, lied effectively, and used spy skills to distract people from his motives. There was no paranormal element, other than doing it really effectively. It was just a slight of hand.


i also disagree. he used a misdirection to make the building appear to partially explode or catch fire. then that brainless guy was sent into the building. the explosion wasn't sleight of hand imo. it was the first manifestation of his powers. whether that is his mutant power (or whether he is even an actual mutant at all) is up for grabs i guess.

quote:
Truthfully, he never misdirected Jean or Xavier. I'm not sure where this forum myth began,[


well, they did see the explosion he created, but he didn't really misdirect THEM with that display, true.

quote:
but he only lied to them. The lady, the house, etc were all real, and it doesn't violate Morrison's intent.


hmm, not sure that's true--at least as initial intent goes. was he just lying again to jean when she asked him about the old woman and he replied "what old woman?" maybe, but i had the feeling that by the end he was actually telling jean the truth.

later she was seen again and was apparently killed, so i guess she was real by then, but i'm not sure about the original intent. i'd love to ask morrison.

quote:
Morrison intended him to be a liar, so he lied. Fantomex enjoyed being inscrutable to the two most powerful telepaths in the world. He poured wine on his own head, lied about the info on the cd(which he stored with his porn collection), and wants 1 billion dollars from Xavier. He was screwing with them the entire time, so they don't what to do other than follow him. It totally makes sense he'd lie about the existence of the old lady. It's what he does. It doesn't give you time to think, so you might just let him go, like Jean did, in the tunnel.


maybe. but like i said, it felt like by the end he was opening up some to jean. you could be right, but i think he was def more than just a liar.

quote:
No, I'm saying the Karnak showing is consistent with his inability to apply this stuff to virtually all the fist fights he gets in. Maybe it's more difficult to cast while he's brawling, or maybe it is some form of hypnosis that doesn't work when your opponent is already engaged on you. Even Remender presents some examples of him talking people into the illusion, hypnotist style.


however he goes about creating the construct, doesn't much matter. he does seem to need time to cast it though, so i can see why in direct combat he doesn't use it. it's also a tough power for a writer to work in, plausibly since it can be such a difficult power to overcome.

quote:
Remender undoubtedly writes the best Fantomex(best version of all those characters tbh), but he really is the outlier here. Same with him taking Psylocke's tk away. His version isn't any closer to Morrison's than anyone else's tbh, and is further away in many regards.


again, i'll disagree. he seemed to actively pursue lines morrison hinted at--the world, his 'mother', the history hinted at by morrison. possibly others did likewise, but i think remender came closest to following in the spirit of the character and maybe approximating what morrison himself would have liked to see from the character.

quote:
Weapon XIII(Evil Fantomex)exists but the nanites render that moot. And Psylocke still beat him in a fight too, circling back to what I said earlier about it's combat function. [/B]


he's been beaten plenty of times in fights, but why distinguish weapon xiii as "evil fantomex"? weapon xiii was just fantomex....


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Old Post Mar 10th, 2018 08:58 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
Possibly. Would it really be enough time though? If she broke his neck, the illusory Fantomex fades immediately. I don't know if she'd turn hers off since the realization would logically hit so quickly.

I do admit however, he might kill hers before she kills his due to his guns. Shooting an illusion is logically faster than flying over to punch it, unless she is way faster than I'm thinking.

So we're on the same page. thumb up


not sure how she breaks his neck though. starting distance is half a kilometer away. also not sure how she'd logic her way out if all she saw was her winning the battle... she sees herself trick him with an illusion, sees herself ko him, she's done and turns off her power. once her power fades he sees her and shoots her.


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Old Post Mar 10th, 2018 09:01 PM
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Senor Cage
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Fantomex also lost to Gambit. laughing out loud

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With Sensor Girl's ability to see through illusions, mental tricks, it's her fight to lose, IMO.

Old Post Mar 10th, 2018 09:21 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
i also disagree. he used a misdirection to make the building appear to partially explode or catch fire. then that brainless guy was sent into the building. the explosion wasn't sleight of hand imo. it was the first manifestation of his powers. whether that is his mutant power (or whether he is even an actual mutant at all) is up for grabs i guess.

That smoke and light display was E.V.A. It wasn't an illusion.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, not sure that's true--at least as initial intent goes. was he just lying again to jean when she asked him about the old woman and he replied "what old woman?" maybe, but i had the feeling that by the end he was actually telling jean the truth.

later she was seen again and was apparently killed, so i guess she was real by then, but i'm not sure about the original intent. i'd love to ask morrison.

maybe. but like i said, it felt like by the end he was opening up some to jean. you could be right, but i think he was def more than just a liar.

It was ambiguous true, and only Morrison can truly know. But it's likely he intended for it to be just that, confusing.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

however he goes about creating the construct, doesn't much matter. he does seem to need time to cast it though, so i can see why in direct combat he doesn't use it. it's also a tough power for a writer to work in, plausibly since it can be such a difficult power to overcome.

I'm only discussing the method since it would have implications for who it works against.

I personally prefer the Remender presentation too. Factoring in cast time, which Remender gave us, might explain why it doesn't come into play much against other low metas. I'm just saying it can get weird if someone really wants to press the issue.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

again, i'll disagree. he seemed to actively pursue lines morrison hinted at--the world, his 'mother', the history hinted at by morrison. possibly others did likewise, but i think remender came closest to following in the spirit of the character and maybe approximating what morrison himself would have liked to see from the character.

he's been beaten plenty of times in fights, but why distinguish weapon xiii as "evil fantomex"? weapon xiii was just fantomex....

Remender was definitely the strongest in terms of quality, but the other writers were faithful thematically. They are just shittier writers lol. Fantomex isn't easy to write as a character.

That was the name he went by. I was just clarifying since we keep calling him "Evil Fantomex" on the boards. Similar to how the female went by Cluster.

Last edited by StyleTime on Mar 10th, 2018 at 09:25 PM

Old Post Mar 10th, 2018 09:22 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
That smoke and light display was E.V.A. It wasn't an illusion.


laughing out loud

went back and looked at that, and yep, you're right. not sure how i didn't remember that. thumb up

sounds like we're on the same page with most of the rest, so, again, thumb up


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Old Post Mar 10th, 2018 09:53 PM
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StiltmanFTW
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
Karnak knocked Fantomex out when they fought. (He was in The World because Young Jean mind freaked him. He wasn't shrank down, although it would be funny.)
https://s10.postimg.org/96sqgx6w9/Karnak1.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/mnpozt4d5/Karnak2.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/osa20vqk9/Karnak3.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/z2ch04o5l/Karnak4.jpg



53 years of comics and Karnak finally gets a decent feat laughing out loud


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Old Post Mar 10th, 2018 10:00 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
not sure how she breaks his neck though. starting distance is half a kilometer away. also not sure how she'd logic her way out if all she saw was her winning the battle... she sees herself trick him with an illusion, sees herself ko him, she's done and turns off her power. once her power fades he sees her and shoots her.

I meant within the illusion. If she breaks the illusion's neck, it'd be over right away like when Magik slashed the fake Fantomex. It vanished instantly. I don't think it'd be enough time post-realization for her to actually deactivate her own illusion.

Might be irrelevant if Fantomex has already bypassed hers of course.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zack M
Fantomex also lost to Gambit. laughing out loud

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With Sensor Girl's ability to see through illusions, mental tricks, it's her fight to lose, IMO.

They did have a pretty back and forth fight, although circumstances prevented them from going all out. Presented misdirection as a mental attack though, although I'm unsure why he didn't use it on Gambit. He had time to do it on the guards.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
53 years of comics and Karnak finally gets a decent feat laughing out loud

laughing out loud

Yeah, he was using his weak point detection to break through Teen Jean's telepathy loop too, although it took days.

Last edited by StyleTime on Mar 10th, 2018 at 10:14 PM

Old Post Mar 10th, 2018 10:08 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
I meant within the illusion. If she breaks the illusion's neck, it'd be over right away like when Magik slashed the fake Fantomex. It vanished instantly. I don't think it'd be enough time post-realization for her to actually deactivate her own illusion.

Might be irrelevant if Fantomex has already bypassed hers of course.


i don't see a way he bypasses her illusions. if he pulls something like he did against the horsemen, i could easily see the misdirect lasting long enough for her to believe she actually killed him, then discontinue the illusion and end up shot. he made it seem like nightcrawler beheaded deadpool pretty easily. he isn't always part of the construct. far as i can see, no reason he couldn't create a fake scene of himself getting killed while still a good distance away. he made logan think he'd cut his arms off, not sure why he couldn't make her think she snapped his neck. or maybe he just shows her what she wants to see, as he did again with one of the horsemen, and takes her out that way. the effects can be a bit inconsistent, but using him at his best capacity? i still don't really see any logical ways she wins this without proof that she, or anyone, really, can actually see through the misdirect. /shrug


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Last edited by leonidas on Mar 10th, 2018 at 10:53 PM

Old Post Mar 10th, 2018 10:43 PM
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Senor Cage
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
I meant within the illusion. If she breaks the illusion's neck, it'd be over right away like when Magik slashed the fake Fantomex. It vanished instantly. I don't think it'd be enough time post-realization for her to actually deactivate her own illusion.

Might be irrelevant if Fantomex has already bypassed hers of course.

They did have a pretty back and forth fight, although circumstances prevented them from going all out. Presented misdirection as a mental attack though, although I'm unsure why he didn't use it on Gambit. He had time to do it on the guards.

laughing out loud

Yeah, he was using his weak point detection to break through Teen Jean's telepathy loop too, although it took days.


Like you said, maybe he has a hard time doing it on people he fights with. And Sensor Girl is a pretty damn good fighter, seeing as she trained under Val Armorr. But, Sensor Girl is seriously more versatile all around. Remote sensing, telepathy, illusion casting, able to block out EXTREMELY high telepaths, martial artists, Magic user, Legion Flight ring (Which is Nth Metal, BTW), able to actually take ALL the five senses away, able to sense through illusions, etc...

I think she has this in the bag.

Old Post Mar 10th, 2018 10:57 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
i don't see a way he bypasses her illusions. if he pulls something like he did against the horsemen, i could easily see the misdirect lasting long enough for her to believe she actually killed him, then discontinue the illusion and end up shot. he made it seem like nightcrawler beheaded deadpool pretty easily. he isn't always part of the construct. far as i can see, no reason he couldn't create a fake scene of himself getting killed while still a good distance away. he made logan think he'd cut his arms off, not sure why he couldn't make her think she snapped his neck. or maybe he just shows her what she wants to see, as he did again with one of the horsemen, and takes her out that way. the effects can be a bit inconsistent, but using him at his best capacity? i still don't really see any logical ways she wins this without proof that she, or anyone, really, can actually see through the misdirect. /shrug

Certainly. I'm just not sure he's going to create anything more than a basic decoy while he's under her spell as well. With Wolverine and the Horseman, he wasn't also fighting something himself.

We're in uncharted territory here since we've never this double illusion scenario, but I think it's reasonable to expect that their best illusions won't be present.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zack M
Like you said, maybe he has a hard time doing it on people he fights with. And Sensor Girl is a pretty damn good fighter, seeing as she trained under Val Armorr. But, Sensor Girl is seriously more versatile all around. Remote sensing, telepathy, illusion casting, able to block out EXTREMELY high telepaths, martial artists, Magic user, Legion Flight ring (Which is Nth Metal, BTW), able to actually take ALL the five senses away, able to sense through illusions, etc...

I think she has this in the bag.

Well, versatility won't necessarily amount to a win.

Last edited by StyleTime on Mar 11th, 2018 at 05:47 PM

Old Post Mar 11th, 2018 05:44 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
Certainly. I'm just not sure he's going to create anything more than a basic decoy while he's under her spell as well. With Wolverine and the Horseman, he wasn't also fighting something himself.

We're in uncharted territory here since we've never this double illusion scenario, but I think it's reasonable to expect that their best illusions won't be present.


i dunno, i don't think her illusion would impact him or his choice. match starts, misdirect. match starts illusion. not sure how neither wouldn't use their 'best'. i guess it could be argued he might not go for the misdirect off the bat, but given basic knowledge i'd think he likely would. he'd cast his misdirect before he even knew what her illusion was. she'd do the same. she'd see herself kill him and.... /shrug


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Old Post Mar 11th, 2018 10:17 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
Certainly. I'm just not sure he's going to create anything more than a basic decoy while he's under her spell as well. With Wolverine and the Horseman, he wasn't also fighting something himself.

We're in uncharted territory here since we've never this double illusion scenario, but I think it's reasonable to expect that their best illusions won't be present.

Well, versatility won't necessarily amount to a win.


No, but it gives her more options and defense against FX attacks. Is Fantomex immune to magic?

Old Post Mar 11th, 2018 10:56 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
i dunno, i don't think her illusion would impact him or his choice. match starts, misdirect. match starts illusion. not sure how neither wouldn't use their 'best'. i guess it could be argued he might not go for the misdirect off the bat, but given basic knowledge i'd think he likely would. he'd cast his misdirect before he even knew what her illusion was. she'd do the same. she'd see herself kill him and.... /shrug

I'm saying he had time to focus and concentrate during those examples though. He was literally sitting for the Horsemen thing.

It just seems clear there is maintenance required for the more elaborate illusions, and I don't know if he could do it while fighting another illusion off himself. That's why I don't know if it'd really last past her "defeating" the image.

My guess is that they both fight the images down, then brawl with Fantomex having the firearms advantage. Or just skip straight to the fighting if she comes at him, like with Agent Zero.
https://postimg.org/image/y6a0kg7lh/
https://postimg.org/image/ixk36o679/
https://postimg.org/image/b4tfepfnp/
https://postimg.org/image/h4h6ixl6t/
https://postimg.org/image/pzi0tghp1/
https://postimg.org/image/665x0dtx1/
https://postimg.org/image/89gc8eool/

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zack M
No, but it gives her more options and defense against FX attacks. Is Fantomex immune to magic?

He isn't immune to magic, no. Hasn't run up against it much.

Assuming she could see through it yeah, but, that's debatable.

Last edited by StyleTime on Mar 11th, 2018 at 11:59 PM

Old Post Mar 11th, 2018 11:44 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zack M
Like you said, maybe he has a hard time doing it on people he fights with. And Sensor Girl is a pretty damn good fighter, seeing as she trained under Val Armorr. But, Sensor Girl is seriously more versatile all around. Remote sensing, telepathy, illusion casting, able to block out EXTREMELY high telepaths, martial artists, Magic user, Legion Flight ring (Which is Nth Metal, BTW), able to actually take ALL the five senses away, able to sense through illusions, etc...

I think she has this in the bag.


If anyone could see through a misdirect, she should.


The Celestial ship feat is nice, but I'd rather see him defeating a magic anti plot device ability like the Spider-Sense. Or trying to fool Xavier.


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Old Post Mar 12th, 2018 12:24 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm saying he had time to focus and concentrate during those examples though. He was literally sitting for the Horsemen thing.

It just seems clear there is maintenance required for the more elaborate illusions, and I don't know if he could do it while fighting another illusion off himself. That's why I don't know if it'd really last past her "defeating" the image.

My guess is that they both fight the images down, then brawl with Fantomex having the firearms advantage. Or just skip straight to the fighting if she comes at him, like with Agent Zero.
https://postimg.org/image/y6a0kg7lh/
https://postimg.org/image/ixk36o679/
https://postimg.org/image/b4tfepfnp/
https://postimg.org/image/h4h6ixl6t/
https://postimg.org/image/pzi0tghp1/
https://postimg.org/image/665x0dtx1/
https://postimg.org/image/89gc8eool/


He isn't immune to magic, no. Hasn't run up against it much.

Assuming she could see through it yeah, but, that's debatable.


If she can see through illusions, then why can't she see through Fantomex's?

Also, getting into a fight with someone who can take your senses away wouldn't be smart. She can take away Fantomex's sight, sound, etc... plus, she's more skilled than Agent Zero. This is why I pointed out Sensor Girl's versatility. It gives her an advantage.

Old Post Mar 12th, 2018 12:43 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
If anyone could see through a misdirect, she should.


The Celestial ship feat is nice, but I'd rather see him defeating a magic anti plot device ability like the Spider-Sense. Or trying to fool Xavier.


Yeah, I would love to see Fantomex misdirected someone like Jackie.

Old Post Mar 12th, 2018 12:44 AM
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Sensor Girl seeing through the illusions of the world.

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Old Post Apr 23rd, 2018 08:57 PM
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