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hawksmoor and magneto v zod
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leonidas
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hawksmoor and magneto v zod

battle takes place on cybertron.... can the esoteric duo drop the kryptonian?


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2018 07:57 PM
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One Big Mob
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Interesting. This turns very much into an imagination fight vs Zod's appearances though.

I know that one mod who knows a lot about Authority... Pr could probably give a reasonable explanation about what he could do with a planet city though.

I'd say the Duo should win. It seems like such an advantageous area


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2018 08:03 PM
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Digi
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Ha. Imo depends entirely on Jack's ability to merge with Cybertron. And depending on iteration, it's powered by an aspect of the Matrix of Leadership, which is the antithesis of goddamn Unicron. Tap into that with anything resembling competency and you might as well have Jack fighting Galactus.

Given how the people who created Jack essentially came from a future where the world had become a giant city-planet, and they had the same powers, it's reasonable to assume he could merge with Cybertron (with or w/o Matrix). I'd give him the edge in that scenario. But I could also see Zod blitzing Jack into space fast enough that he can't really harness the planet's power.

Weird fight. Not a lot of middle ground. Likely a stomp either way.


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Last edited by Digi on Mar 6th, 2018 at 08:25 PM

Old Post Mar 6th, 2018 08:22 PM
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leonidas
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where does his control in a city stop? can he slow time for example? i know he can affect gravity and the em spectrum. i wonder if he could actually amp mags in this scenario...? or if mags could amp him? their 2 power sets in this situation seem very compatible. between them they can do almost anything in this environment...


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2018 10:25 PM
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riv6672
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Magneto can hold Hawksmoor's jacket i guess.
As Hawksmoor stomps.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2018 10:44 PM
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Philosophía
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Zod throws Cybertron into the sun.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 08:48 AM
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Digi
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@Phil, sure, if it weren't fighting back and reforming nigh-instantly from any damage. People make a weird conflation sometimes when they're confronted with, say, the "city suit" feats Jack has. "Oh, this character can easily destroy a city," is the response sometimes. Which is like saying that destroying a brick wall is enough to give a win over Thing.

Leo made this thread because it's probably a good fight; I don't know that we can be sure of the outcome, but an active planet-sized being with all kinds of esoteric powers isn't the same as a planet just sitting in space.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
where does his control in a city stop? can he slow time for example? i know he can affect gravity and the em spectrum. i wonder if he could actually amp mags in this scenario...? or if mags could amp him? their 2 power sets in this situation seem very compatible. between them they can do almost anything in this environment...


I don't recall any specific time manipulation. But his senses and reflexes are greatly enhanced. He captured a speedster at one point, for example. And the gravity manipulation, which you mentioned. He can also phase and has a form of teleportation where he can appear pretty much anywhere. The biggest issue is that we don't have something quite on this scope to know how much the amp would be in some cases. Like, could he manipulate gravity to the extent that he could slow, hinder or pin Zod? We don't have that answer. I have no doubt he could weaponize Cybertron, though, which is probably enough.

How would Zod handle having his brain phased into concrete or metal? Might be another sneaky possibility that doesn't involve brute force.

I'm struggling to find synergy with Magneto, powerful as he'd be in this environment. It might exist, but I'm not clever enough this morning to find it.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 02:04 PM
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Philosophía
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
@Phil, sure, if it weren't fighting back and reforming nigh-instantly from any damage. People make a weird conflation sometimes when they're confronted with, say, the "city suit" feats Jack has. "Oh, this character can easily destroy a city," is the response sometimes. Which is like saying that destroying a brick wall is enough to give a win over Thing.

Leo made this thread because it's probably a good fight; I don't know that we can be sure of the outcome, but an active planet-sized being with all kinds of esoteric powers isn't the same as a planet just sitting in space.
Interesting. So there's evidence Hawksmoor controlling say, a building, increases that building's durability (?!) to resist one of Zod's attacks? Is that specified, or are you just speculating?

It's possible I've missed something when I've read the comics he appeared in, but they're treated as simply animated versions of the same materials, that have been repeatedly shattered by far lower force, are they not?


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Last edited by Philosophía on Mar 8th, 2018 at 02:46 PM

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 02:39 PM
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Digi
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Durability? No. I didn't say that at all. I'm not sure what you think I'm speculating at, tbh. But it can reform without much trouble. Granted, Zod would vaporize stuff as he attacks, but anything other than planetary-level destruction is going to be a drop in the bucket that is Cybertron's bulk. Meanwhile, Jack could give Zod a "hug" and just send a billion tons of steel hurtling into his skull while he's trying to make enough of a dent to swing the battle in his favor.

Zod can destroy planets, is your point, yeah? I'm not really disputing that. What I am saying is that he'd have a fight on his hands, with a bazillion-ton metal planet fighting back, phasing him into metal, pulling him around with gravity pockets. Not to mention Magneto who, while maybe not the game-changer, is certainly a hindrance in this environment, yeah?


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 02:51 PM
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Philosophía
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
Durability? No. I didn't say that at all.
Then you didn't use the proper analogy, since I was thrown off by your "Which is like saying that destroying a brick wall is enough to give a win over Thing. "

Thing is [obviously] more durable than a brick. A hawksmoor control building isn't more durable than a normal building.

I think your analogy should have been more about Deadpool compared to Batman, lol.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
Granted, Zod would vaporize stuff as he attacks, but anything other than planetary-level destruction is going to be a drop in the bucket that is Cybertron's bulk. Meanwhile, Jack could give Zod a "hug" and just send a billion tons of steel hurtling into his skull while he's trying to make enough of a dent to swing the battle in his favor.

Zod can destroy planets, is your point, yeah? I'm not really disputing that. What I am saying is that he'd have a fight on his hands, with that zillion-ton metal planet fighting back, phasing him into metal, pulling him around with gravity pockets. Not to mention Magneto who, while maybe not the game-changer, is certainly a hindrance in this environment, yeah?
Zod could simply ram the planet at lightspeed++, go up a few million miles, then ram it again, however many times he likes, until there's nothing left, and there's nothing Hawksmoor can do about it.

There's nothing that can hold Zod in place -- he has shattered Hal's constructs trying his best [and Hal's constructs can resist planet-moving strength], and any material Hawksmoor can muster are literally feathers by comparison that Zod can just fly through like air.

Zod has also, literally, walked around and fought with a hole in his head, lol:
https://static.comicvine.com/upload...97509-59697.jpg

Even if Hawksmoor manages to gain Flash-level speed and locate Zod coming at lightspeed+ from space, move materials with precision towards Zod, who would somehow not notice with kryptonian senses, phase it inside his brain, then solidify it...Zod would just walk on, and then regenerate.

Also, you know...invulnerability, a kryptonian powerset. Superman's brain-invulnerability is so high, it can crush kryptonians miniaturized in his brain. Imagine what happens to...normal materials.

As for Magneto, I think one lightspeed+ attack from space would go through his shield and atomize him. Certainly two of them would.


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Last edited by Philosophía on Mar 8th, 2018 at 03:12 PM

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 03:09 PM
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Digi
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Good stuff. thumb up

My point was that beating something of {x} durability and size isn't the same as beating something with the same traits, but with sentience, fighting skill, etc. Didn't mean to imply that bricks and Thing are the same level of durability. The point was that destroying Cybertron and destroying Cyvertron with someone behind the wheel repairing it nigh-instantly and fighting with it are leagues apart.

I still think your interpretation there basically ignores anything the duo might do. Imo it's extremely lopsided in picking which feats to consider. Zod undoubtedly possesses the power to win the fight. That's kind of the whole point. The duo do need to amp their way into the discussion. But like, a hole in the head is one thing...if Jack get any kind of attack in - and again, he has a gd planet to try to do so - I feel liked having your brain phased into and merged with steel is different and way worse, and even if it didn't kill Zod outright (a scary thought, but reasonable to assume he might live), it would allow a chance for some give and take to the attacks. Zod has the speed advantage too, but given that Mags would be amped like never before and Jack could essentially create a gravity well with the planet's mass, I think it's also reasonable to assume lightspeed+ attacks, ad infinitum, would be blunted considerably, and might not be as viable as you suggest.

I'm not married to either outcome, though. I don't see it as clear-cut, and would agree that the onus is on the duo to prove they could amp enough to play ball. I just think it's short-sighted to assume a stomp.


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Last edited by Digi on Mar 8th, 2018 at 03:25 PM

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 03:20 PM
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Philosophía
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
Good stuff. thumb up

My point was that beating something of {x} durability and size isn't the same as beating something with the same traits, but with sentience, fighting skill, etc. Didn't mean to imply that bricks and Thing are the same level of durability. The point was that destroying Cybertron and destroying Cyvertron with someone behind the wheel repairing it nigh-instantly and fighting with it are leagues apart.

I still think your interpretation there basically ignores anything the duo might do. Imo it's extremely lopsided in picking which feats to consider. Zod undoubtedly possesses the power to win the fight. That's kind of the whole point. The duo do need to amp their way into the discussion. But like, a hole in the head is one thing...if Jack get any kind of attack in - and again, he has a gd planet to try to do so - I feel liked having your brain phased into and merged with steel is different and way worse, and even if it didn't kill Zod outright (a scary thought, but reasonable to assume he might live), it would allow a chance for some give and take to the attacks. He has the speed advantage too, but given that Mags would be amped like never before and Jack could essentially create a gravity well with the planet's mass, I think it's also reasonable to assume lightspeed+ attacks, ad infinitum, would be blunted considerably.
While I disagree on how much it would work [seriously, read Suicide Squad, Zod was basically Jason Voorhees + any material is laughable to kryptonian invulnerability], I feel like your interpretation hinges too much on Zod being there and punching random constructs. Why would he even stay on the planet, when the planet is under Hawksmoor's control? He has basic knowledge. I mean, he could easily go into orbit, locate them with his senses, and just...slam into them. Go back, do it again. Slam the planet. etc.

All of Hawksmoor's constructs might as well be paper for Zod's strength. A billion tons of feather is still feather. Imagine a bullet going through a billion tons of cotton. It's that, but worse. Magneto's shields are good but...not that good. Not GL constructs good. If anything, I'd give him better odds of coming up with something, than Jack.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 03:34 PM
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Digi
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Jack has basic knowledge too and has fought with/against guys like Majestic and Apollo and seen them speedblitz planets with similar effects. I don't think it's outlandish to assume he'd have something like a repelling gravity field surrounding himself, which could break Zod out of lightspeed. Something like what Mogo did to absorb the Black Lanterns in Blackest Night. And those were beings that were undoubtedly in the same ballpark, power-wise.

Just be fair with creative use and general knowledge on both sides, yeah? I'm not sure how I'd vote here, so we may not be in disagreement on the outcome. You've definitely pulled me more toward Zod and/or "unsure" in this fight. I just think you're only giving one side the benefit of the doubt.


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Last edited by Digi on Mar 8th, 2018 at 03:43 PM

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 03:40 PM
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One Big Mob
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What do we assume of Cybertron just sitting there as well? Do we assume it contains all the power of Primus or do we assume it's just a metal tech planet?


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 03:42 PM
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Digi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
What do we assume of Cybertron just sitting there as well? Do we assume it contains all the power of Primus or do we assume it's just a metal tech planet?


I've kinda been thinking of it as just a chunk of metal. If it has any of the MacGuffins of the Transformer-verse (like the Matrix of Leadership I mentioned earlier, which powered Cybertron at one point iirc), then this isn't a fight.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 03:44 PM
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One Big Mob
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
I've kinda been thinking of it as just a chunk of metal. If it has any of the MacGuffins of the Transformer-verse (like the Matrix of Leadership I mentioned earlier, which powered Cybertron at one point iirc), then this isn't a fight.
Ok.

So where would you place Hawksmoor's technopathy(citypathy?) in comparison to Cyborg Superman and how would they differ? What could Cyborg Superman do for example with this planet that Hawksmoor couldn't, and vice versa?


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 03:51 PM
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Hawksmoor was also able to see into the future/past with the cities, iirc. Along with the gravity Wells.

Whereas Hank would just use them like an elemental would (as seen with Apokolips in H/P). Hawksmoors control is more esoteric, I'm.

As for the billion tons of cotton....it would actually slow it down a lot, because of resistance. Inagine firing a bullet underwater, for example. Hell, even a billion tons of air would slow a bullet down.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 03:56 PM
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Philosophía
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
As for the billion tons of cotton....it would actually slow it down a lot, because of resistance. Inagine firing a bullet underwater, for example. Hell, even a billion tons of air would slow a bullet down.
Yes, but that's because bullets get their speed from the initial 'explosion', and has nothing to propulse them to sustain their velocity other than that. Zod is like a bullet whose trigger keeps getting pushed, since he controls his own speed.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
Jack has basic knowledge too and has fought with/against guys like Majestic and Apollo and seen them speedblitz planets with similar effects. I don't think it's outlandish to assume he'd have something like a repelling gravity field surrounding himself, which could break Zod out of lightspeed. Something like what Mogo did to absorb the Black Lanterns in Blackest Night. And those were beings that were undoubtedly in the same ballpark, power-wise.

Just be fair with creative use and general knowledge on both sides, yeah? I'm not sure how I'd vote here, so we may not be in disagreement on the outcome. You've definitely pulled me more toward Zod and/or "unsure" in this fight. I just think you're only giving one side the benefit of the doubt.


I don't feel comfortable moving into fan-fiction territory. You just compared Jack with Mogo...just because they both control gravity. What's next, Graviton? C'mon. Orders of magnitude, here.

I'm giving it to one side, because I see it as the most obvious behaviour of the combatants. I mean, there's zero reason Zod [who is a master tactician, too], would behave in a way that would give the others a chance [i.e. staying there and...fighting buildings/constructs etc.].

If you ask me, can Jack affect Zod, if the latter fights stupid? Yes, phasing is a good one. Can Magneto? Yes. But that's almost imagining a fight where Zod just...stands there, and doesn't take to space and atomize them with repeated blows.


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Last edited by Philosophía on Mar 8th, 2018 at 04:12 PM

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 04:08 PM
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leonidas
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cybertron is also stated to be the size of saturn which has a surface area of almost 100x that of earth. that is a BIG planet to destroy, especially assuming it can reform...

with the tech available, and hawksmoor's ability to instantly access it, i'd assume he was more than capable of amping mags. perhaps he could channel the planet's em field directly through magneto? mags was able to effortlessly draw on jupiter's magnetic field recently as well to amp himself. if mags is able to reliably amp, he'd be an absolute beast--as phil knows as well as anyone.

as long as we're speculating--i wonder if he could use the em field to draw out the solar energy--or some of it--from zod? the way he drew out the pf from jean? there is also so much metal on cybertron, he would would pretty easily (even unamped i'd think) be able to control the ferrous material in the air into zod's lungs and brain. maybe gain outright control of him that way, or simply have the material wreak whatever havor it could inside him. i'm sure he's durable enough to survive it, but i'm sure it would hurt like hell.

whatever damage zod did to the planet would be easy enough for hawksmoor and mags to repair as well--or hawksmoor could just turns parts intangible.

between the 2 of them--especially if we allow for an amp for mags and explore his FULL power set and list of feats--they have a nearly limitless variety of attacks they can mount. they should easily be able to slow him down (between gravity control and em control) and limit his options--at least in some scenarios. with the sheer versatility at their command, i don't see this being anything close to a stomp for zod, and can see the team definitely winning this. /shrug


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 04:16 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía
Yes, but that's because bullets get their speed from the initial 'explosion', and has nothing to propulse them to sustain their velocity other than that. Zod is like a bullet whose trigger keeps getting pushed, since he controls his own speed.



I don't feel comfortable moving into fan-fiction territory. You just compared Jack with Mogo...just because they both control gravity. What's next, Graviton? C'mon. Orders of magnitude, here.

I'm giving it to one side, because I see it as the most obvious behaviour of the combatants. I mean, there's zero reason Zod [who is a master tactician, too], would behave in a way that would give the others a chance [i.e. staying there and...fighting buildings/constructs etc.].

If you ask me, can Jack affect Zod, if the latter fights stupid? Yes, phasing is a good one. Can Magneto? Yes. But that's almost imagining a fight where Zod just...stands there, and doesn't take to space and atomize them with repeated blows.





the first statement is false. the rest ring true


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 04:19 PM
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