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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Sidious' saber skills


Sidious' saber skills
Started by: Sheev

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Zentrex
Hi!

Registered: Jan 2018
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Geistalt
Sidious is a master of murder. It's only logical that he'd master every tactic/device conducive to murder.

thumb up

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Geistalt
Way to go, Mob. You're slaying tonight.

now if only we could get Nadd to regret how thoroughly he got his ass kicked.

thumb up thumb up


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Old Post May 4th, 2018 03:57 AM
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One Big Mob
Dead

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Rising up


 

I have a question for you Nadd - which normally I'd just drop it after saying I wouldn't reply, but seeing your drastic change in tone makes me mildly want to answer - do you actually want me to reply?

Do you believe yourself correct in such a way that you're confident your position stands on its own? Do you want to further this? Are you confident enough in your position to dare me to try and point out any flaws?

Or, do you admit you misspoke at a couple junctions (you don't have to point out where), and would rather I didn't reply?

I am perfectly fine with either answer. I have no issue going into a potential 15 post reply battle with you (nothing beyond that though), or I am fine with you having the last word right now. The question is though, what do you want me to do?

I will either reply or drop it (without arguing with your reasoning) depending on your answer


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Old Post May 4th, 2018 04:34 AM
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DarthSkywalker0
The Insane Jedi Master

Registered: May 2016
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
I have a question for you Nadd - which normally I'd just drop it after saying I wouldn't reply, but seeing your drastic change in tone makes me mildly want to answer - do you actually want me to reply?

Do you believe yourself correct in such a way that you're confident your position stands on its own? Do you want to further this? Are you confident enough in your position to dare me to try and point out any flaws?

Or, do you admit you misspoke at a couple junctions (you don't have to point out where), and would rather I didn't reply?

I am perfectly fine with either answer. I have no issue going into a potential 15 post reply battle with you (nothing beyond that though), or I am fine with you having the last word right now. The question is though, what do you want me to do?

I will either reply or drop it (without arguing with your reasoning) depending on your answer



Please reply. This debate is way too entertaining to give up on.


__________________

"I killed them, of course. Just as I killed the Guardian. Just as I now kill you."

Old Post May 4th, 2018 05:00 AM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

I'm genuinely perplexed by the willful ignorance here. The evidence pertaining to Palpatine's lightsaber prowess literally cannot get more explicit:


(please log in to view the image)
-TCW Episode Guide


"[Sidious'] style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous -- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him." - NG

"Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced." - NG

"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style." - NG



Certainly his speed(and overall force power) makes Palpatine more lethal in a duel, but pretending like he is only an impressive swordsman because he's super-duper fast is just ridiculous.


__________________


"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Last edited by Galan007 on May 4th, 2018 at 02:59 PM

Old Post May 4th, 2018 02:49 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote:
Originally posted by One Big Mob
I have a question for you Nadd - which normally I'd just drop it after saying I wouldn't reply, but seeing your drastic change in tone makes me mildly want to answer - do you actually want me to reply?

Do you believe yourself correct in such a way that you're confident your position stands on its own? Do you want to further this? Are you confident enough in your position to dare me to try and point out any flaws?

Or, do you admit you misspoke at a couple junctions (you don't have to point out where), and would rather I didn't reply?

I am perfectly fine with either answer. I have no issue going into a potential 15 post reply battle with you (nothing beyond that though), or I am fine with you having the last word right now. The question is though, what do you want me to do?

I will either reply or drop it (without arguing with your reasoning) depending on your answer



I just realized something.

Flint vs Luke takes place 4 years ABY
Nick Rostu vs Luke takes place 5 years ABY(Shadows of Mindor)
Luuke vs Luke takes place 9 years ABY(Heir to the Empire)
Lumiya vs Luke takes place 40 years ABY
(of course there is the Skirmish on Kinooine that takes place 4 years ABY - but at that point - you could barely call Lumiya a master in the arts of lightwhip combat. And, yet she still bested Luke)


Flint vs Luke:
-neither managed to defeat the other. In fact this duel takes place 1 year after Luke's duel on Cloud City with Vader

Nick Rostu vs Luke:
-Nick was mind-controlled by Cronal - who has no noticeable lightsabre skills

Luuke vs Luke:
-neither managed to defeat the other. It was Mara who gave the final blow

Lumiya vs Luke:

-she much admits that it is her lightwhip that gave her advantage against her enemies


{QUOTE]"That combination is what defeated him(Luke). His Jedi training had prepared him for an energy weapon, or a solid one. Not one that was both at once."
―Lumiya[/QUOTE]


-then, Luke reveals his plan - he has created a shoto which, in concert with his lightsaber, allow him to match Lumiya's lightwhip.

-Lumiya's lightwhip could be defeated by a warrior skilled in the Jar'Kai dueling style who was furnished with both a standard lightsaber and a short-bladed variation known as a shoto.


quote:
"Two blades—one long and one short?"
"Against the two natures of your weapon."
―Lumiya and Luke Skywalker



But keep in mind that this is the 'newbie' Lumiya who wasn't fully familiar with her weapon(unlike her 40 ABY self)

EDIT: I knew something was fishy when you brought up Luke's duels with her(except the Skirmish on Kinooine)

They are actually happening 40 years ABY(long after the DE events, the Shadows of Mindor and Thrawn campaign)

-Lumiya's lightwhip's extensions helped her to engage enemies from a vantage point of several meters; that made it extremely difficult for them to closely engage her and helped her to have control of combat situations.
This, however, came to an end when Luke fought Lumiya on Terephon.
That duel was in Skywalker's favor. Although she fought as best she could, there were no distractions to deter the inexorable might of the Grand Master; unlike Roqoo or the resort station at Gilatter VIII, Lumiya was not surrounded by objects or hostages. Atop the cliff, Skywalker ducked inside her defenses and their weapons clashed.

What's worth mentioning is that Luke eschewed the use of his shoto. He implemented an aggressive two-handed onslaught against the whip's linear assault. Lumiya was unable to achieve its maximum velocity when Skywalker rushed her, forcing the Dark Lady to give ground as she attempted to regain sufficient distance to effectively swing her weapon.

It also known that Lumiya's lightwhip is less powerful than a lightsabre. The whip's metal and leather thongs are vulnerable to being cut, and the energy beams had the potential to short out violently if sufficient physical force is applied with a lightsabre.


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Last edited by Freedon Nadd on May 4th, 2018 at 03:23 PM

Old Post May 4th, 2018 03:16 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm genuinely perplexed by the willful ignorance here. The evidence pertaining to Palpatine's lightsaber prowess literally cannot get more explicit:


(please log in to view the image)
-TCW Episode Guide


"[Sidious'] style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous -- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him." - NG

"Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced." - NG

"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style." - NG



Certainly his speed(and overall force power) makes Palpatine more lethal in a duel, but pretending like he is only an impressive swordsman because he's super-duper fast is just ridiculous.

Good. The source states he is a master of all forms. He knows all forms. That's all. Not that he mastered all of them to perfection.

Besides that: I was referring to Dark Empire Palpatine's lightsabre skills sucking. PT Palpatine's lightsabre skills were quite decent. And the main point was that he is not the G.O.A.T in lightsabre combat. That's all.

Also - those statements are G-canon; not EU canon.

He is a decent lightsabre combatant during the PT. But to insinuate that all his duels are won only because of his 'godly' lightsabre combat skills is ridiculous as well, Admiral. smile


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Last edited by Freedon Nadd on May 4th, 2018 at 03:32 PM

Old Post May 4th, 2018 03:21 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Please reply. This debate is way too entertaining to give up on.


Only now I realize this is only canon Sidious. Meh.

You couldn't say really many thing about him in canon, ''cept some hyping.


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Old Post May 4th, 2018 03:30 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote:
"[Sidious'] style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous -- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him." - NG


This source/fragment basically states that Palpatine is relying more on his Force abilities and stalling rather than continuously fighting with his lightsabre. laughing out loud

quote:
"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style." - NG


This is official wank. Nothing more. Have we seen him applying that 'claim' in the lore?

It's like the hyping of the ancient Sith which is never presented in the lore - and yet people dismiss the ancient Sith's hype because those characters never stood up to that 'hype'?

cool rock


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Last edited by Freedon Nadd on May 4th, 2018 at 03:41 PM

Old Post May 4th, 2018 03:39 PM
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One Big Mob
Dead

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Rising up


 

How did you manage to make this page even more of a mess is beyond me.

Look do you want me to reply to you or not?

The reason I ask is because I don't think you believe your own argument and you indirectly nullified a good half of your argument with one sentence. Not to mention almost every breakdown is just a handwave away to talk about "Nope speed", and you defended your use of calling characters "You" as opposed to just admitting you were using the game. In addition to some other stuff... a lot of other stuff.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Please reply. This debate is way too entertaining to give up on.
It's not entertaining at all though. no expression


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Last edited by One Big Mob on May 4th, 2018 at 03:57 PM

Old Post May 4th, 2018 03:55 PM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
The source states he is a master of all forms. He knows all forms. That's all. Not that he mastered all of them to perfection.
laughing out loud


__________________


"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Old Post May 4th, 2018 05:25 PM
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Sheev
The All-Sith

Registered: Apr 2018
Location: Exegol


 

Can someone explain the difference between "mastering" something and "perfecting" something? :/


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Old Post May 4th, 2018 08:30 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
laughing out loud


1. It's just 'unproven' hype and you know it. If we go by unproven hype - then the ancient Sith hype is welcome too
2. master
[mas-ter, mah-ster]
noun
a person with the ability or power to use, control, or dispose of something:
e.g: a master of six languages; to be master of one's fate


3. I don't want to talk about Legends content, anyways. It's just canon continuity in the OP's thread


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Old Post May 4th, 2018 08:38 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sheev
Can someone explain the difference between "mastering" something and "perfecting" something? :/


master:
verb

to make oneself master of; become an adept in:


perfect:
verb

make (something) completely free from faults or defects; make as good as possible:


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Old Post May 4th, 2018 08:41 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
How did you manage to make this page even more of a mess is beyond me.

Look do you want me to reply to you or not?

The reason I ask is because I don't think you believe your own argument and you indirectly nullified a good half of your argument with one sentence. Not to mention almost every breakdown is just a handwave away to talk about "Nope speed", and you defended your use of calling characters "You" as opposed to just admitting you were using the game. In addition to some other stuff... a lot of other stuff.


It's not entertaining at all though. no expression


No. At least not here. It took me some time to realize that this thread was meant only for canon Palpatine.

It's not worth it to stretch it out even further.


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Old Post May 4th, 2018 08:49 PM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. It's just 'unproven' hype and you know it. If we go by unproven hype - then the ancient Sith hype is welcome too
2. master
[mas-ter, mah-ster]
noun
a person with the ability or power to use, control, or dispose of something:
e.g: a master of six languages; to be master of one's fate
What a terrible and entirely self-defeating bit of non-logic, lol.


Yoda was stated to have "mastery" of Ataro, and Kenobi was regarded as "THE master" of Soresu:

(please log in to view the image)
-RotS

So your contention is that Yoda hadn't 'perfected' Ataro and Kenobi hadn't 'perfected' Soresu? Please.


Heck, Yoda was stated to be a "master" of ALL lightsaber styles:
https://i.imgur.com/mHIkSul.jpg

So your contention is that Yoda hadn't 'perfected' said styles? Please.


Of course there are SEVERAL other examples I could post(ie. Dooku being regarded as a Makashi "master", Kit Fisto being regarded as a Shii-Cho "master", Adi Gallia being regarded as a Shien "master", etc. etc.), but there's really no reason. Clearly if one is regarded as a true "master" of a given form, it is assumed they have "perfected" it(especially when we start talking about high-level swordmasters like Yoda and Palpatine.) Laughably foolish to assume otherwise, tbh.


__________________


"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Last edited by Galan007 on May 4th, 2018 at 09:52 PM

Old Post May 4th, 2018 09:47 PM
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Zentrex
Hi!

Registered: Jan 2018
Location:


 

I love this side of Freedon Nadd. Is this what things were like in the golden days?

Well, anyway. I don't think any amount of quotes is going to convince Nadd here, so I'm going to try a different approach.

The star wars universe is an interpretable canon. Different people, including the creators, have different ideas of how things should be. Now it's possible that there are creators out there, and there are, for a fact, fans out there, who believe that Sidious wielding a lightsaber is stupid. However, this is, as I said, an interpretation of the character. Meaning if you disagree with those of us, and the creators that Sidious is the Greatest Of Them All in every way, then that's one way to look at this galaxy far, far away.

Sta Wars, in the end, is a story. Not just in the real world, but a defining aspect of star wars is that it's a tale. A fairy tale, a mythology. It's not meant to make sense the way the real world does. It makes poetic sense instead. So one has to look at Sidious' accomplishments in the light of poetic sense instead of logical. I know this is what you've been doing the whole time, unlike everyone else here.

So, there's no fixed answer to how good Sidious is with lightsabers. If it makes more sense to you that he'd not have fantastic lightsaber skills, then that's your head canon. If it makes more sense to you that he would, then there.

But then what's fair game when considering Sidious' lightsaber skills? I would say it depends what the story needs/calls for. Although he has managed to at least MATCH powerful opponents with the lightsaber, so he has to be quite far above average.


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Old Post May 5th, 2018 03:02 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

There is absolute consistency that Sidious' lightsaber skills are among the greatest in the mythos.


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Old Post May 5th, 2018 03:17 AM
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Zentrex
Hi!

Registered: Jan 2018
Location:


 

Yeah, well, it's fiction, and you can believe whatever you want about it. I believe Sidious' lightsaber skills are great, but that's just 'cause I want to. There are things I believe which aren't entirely backed by textual evidence, 'cause I want to.


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Old Post May 5th, 2018 03:27 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Sure, but for a debating forum there is an objective answer for Sidious' skill level.


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Old Post May 5th, 2018 03:57 AM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There is absolute consistency that Sidious' lightsaber skills are among the greatest in the mythos.


1. Fails to realize that lightsabre mastery will diminish in time if one does not hold on their lightsabre use
2. Fails to realize I was talking about DE Sidious' sucking in lightsabre combat. His PT incarnation still holds his lightsabre skills quite decently.
3. Fails to realize that my stance on Palpatine's lightsabre wank is not due to him being a skilled master of lightsabre skills. It's about him being the MvP(the greatest of the greatest - with no equal or superior)
4. Fails to realize that even the books emphasise on his "astonishing" speed when it comes about dueling.
5. KMC members go against hype without feats. Yet they accept some of Sidious even if he really didn't stand up to those claims.

I guess right now you would say that in a lightsabre match - Valkorion would beat the shit out of Palpatine because he is so much faster(if we assume that greater Force strength = greater speed)


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Old Post May 6th, 2018 08:07 AM
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