The taint inoculation statement is pointing that she can absorb his energy again. In the first fight(technically 2nd, as they've fought in the past when Carol was drunk) it's shown, explicitly, that she absorbs his blast. He tainted it so it would **** up her system. She can absorb ambient energy too. Not just direct attacks.
He opened with an energy attack though, so it makes sense she'd do decent damage right away. She started able to break fragments off and amped until she could incinerate his armor.
You referenced this Thanos incident before, and I have to ask if you're talking about the CWII event. Thanos was blasted and battered to near unconsciousness by a team of Blue Marvel, Human Torch, Crystal, Dazzler, Black Panther, Medusa, She Hulk, War Machine, America Chavez, Spectrum, and an amped Carol. Then, after Thanos was nearly out, Carol delivers the last punch.
As I said before, people only saw the scan of her punch, and spun it into Carol soloing Thanos, which is ridiculous. Placing the cherry on top of a team-based ass whooping does not mean Carol is Thanos level. While amped and with back up, Carol failed miserably against Thanos beforehand, needing Black Panther to save her ass.
Are either of these the incident you were talking about? I don't see how they bring Carol anywhere near Thanos soloing.
Pretty much. She is essentially a low herald with tons of screen time. She wishes she was racking up the feats Jane was.
Kelly Sue Deconnick had a solid arc when she started with Carol, and the Puppet Master arc was decent before that, but Carol's books usually are mediocre at best.
It's a shame really. I support giving women/minorities pushes, but don't make the stories shit while doing it.
Last edited by StyleTime on May 13th, 2018 at 01:32 AM
Do you feel what Bendis wrote for Carol is inline with her prior depictions/nothing wrong with what she did against Iron Fella and Thanatos? Do you think that the circumstances of what happened make it consistent with her history?
I think she's certainly been upgraded, especially in physical strength, since her 40-ish ton days. She's cl100 with no amps now. I just think it's being exaggerated a bit.
I see the Iron Man thing as a bad matchup playing out how it should. If Tony isn't going to use exotic tech, she will juice up and cave his head in eventually.
I saw nothing wrong with the Thanos incident. She got man-handled alone, and participated in a team takedown later.
Alright Styletime. I think I understand who you are as a person now. I understand your passion. I'll respond in a little bit here, although maybe in another thread... who knows?
But Tony admits he knew she would probably figure out a way around this. It seems odd if he knew she could amp off his blasts yet he still was amping her the entire fight. It seems odd if she were being significantly amped without so much as a statement (especially ambient energy). That fight seemed more a case of innate power than a jump from Tony's.
Well I don't see how one blast would allow her to cause a ton of damage to a Hulkbuster Suit if we judge Carol based on her past.
Because it's probably Thanos' lowest feat (pretty much any Bendis showing for that matter). Of course I'd reference it. My point isn't that those showings don't exist, my point is that she was written far above what she was even a couple of years ago by purely looking at those instances. You can rationalize it if you must, but all that does is further show that she was written up. Which is my point. I'm using two very blatant examples of things near impossible for her previously to show she gets more than a little benefit from the current climate.
Thanos had a bad showing. Captain Marvel had a previously impossible showing. Written up.
She absorbed energy from Tony and trashed the shit out of him. An ability not foreign to her previously in comics. Do we really assume Carol could have absolutely destroyed an amped up Iron Man suit half a decade ago no matter how many blasts she absorbed?
Like I said, she has been written to do things beyond her league. You admitted she had a bump from 40 to 100, which is my entire point.
Even going away from that showing for a minute, take a look at your list and assume the effectiveness of everyone. You have Blue Marvel, Spectrum, Ms America, and Carol. Everyone else should be useless. And among those four Carol was doing the most damage by far.
Everyone of her blasts were devastating him though. Do you think me so naive that I'd judge my dudes based on one scan? Anyone of those shots of hers would be laughed off by another writer. Hell it was laughed off by Ewing... who presents another problem. Mainly putting her above Blue Marvel. A character who is pretty firmly above her previous incarnations.
With the amount of damage she was causing him, it's not inconceivable that she could have been portrayed to KO him solo. Under Bendis. Which falls under her getting a "bump".
And I also asked the question to get your opinion of the fight. Would you call it pis, would you say it was a good showing, would you just explain the events and speak like "Hey, there was a lot going on, it wasn't just her"? You picked the last one. You tried to impress me with the team like I never saw the fight. Which indicates to me that you don't think it's a low showing per se, but it was rather a lot of opposition. And if we go by that assumption purely, it still winds up as being an example of Carol being written up as she caused far and away the most damage.
Also, I think you have the events mixed up. You say "before" like you're referring to the events in the Ultimates. That was later on, and a much more accurate depiction IMO.
In that scene you still had the four heavy hitters, Carol, BM, Captain Marvel, Mizz Captain America, yet they were rather useless in comparison to the FCBD CW issue. You mention yourself the scene where she was "useless" on her own as a defense to me saying that it looked like Carol could have soloed Thanos, yet you don't find issue in the CW depiction? I don't get how that adds up tbh.
Anyway, yes, she was useless. In fact Thanos tanked back to back BM and her Binary blast. https://imgur.com/JPsgy4k
Now we contrast that with the first fight. One of your people posted that here:
Look at the first attack there in comparison. Now let's cut away the bloat and show the pages where she rocks him:
Every attack she lands is huge. I didn't say she was Thanos level based on this scene, I said this scene showed she probably could have beaten Thanos alone. Which, Bendis probably would have loved to do.
Now just because you keep mentioning the terrific team she had, let's do a count based on the scene you posted:
Carol Danvers: 4 attacks, included the finisher
She Hulk: 1 tackle
War Machine: 2 attacks
Medusa: She tied him up
Dazzler: 2 attacks
Black Panther: 1 attack
Blue Marvel: 3 attacks
Spectrum: 2 attacks
Human Torch: 2 attacks
She did a quarter of the attacks, and in no way were her attacks depicted any less than the others. It's really not inconceivable that Bendis portrayed her as an incredible challenge on her own.
Now, I could sit here like a fella and list off reasons why this occurred, but I don't think I have to. Even with potential explanations, Bendis himself wrote Thanos at full power, and thus wrote Carol up quite a bit. Contrasting how shitty she did in another comic doesn't exactly help prove that case.
Keep in mind I'm not saying that Carol is Thanos level. I'm saying that she has been written up to be incredibly above her previous levels, a sentiment you agree with to a degree as you being a man of the people have upped her strength based on what you've seen. Obviously the Bendis examples aren't the norm, but like I said above there, I used two obvious (to me) examples of her benefitting from the current climate. Something that you didn't bat an eyelash at and even defended what she did. And defended while somehow downplaying it.
Both the Iron Man examples and the Thanos one under Bendis are two of her most ridiculous battle feats. Higher than what she's previously been shown.
As for the power creep.
We've seen her do terrible against War Machine. We've seen her get team busted by a sentient Hulk Buster, a suit we assume was below the Hulkbuster he used against her in CW. She drained enough power to power half a city before and failed to cause any damage to Iron Man in his Modular Suit. Yes she was drunk, but that's not exactly going to lower her power on a massive amp.
I can almost guarantee any writer right now would make her do incredibly well against Iron Man. Well beyond what she could do 5 years ago. Even in CW 5 she was shattering his armor with punches. That doesn't sync up with prior showings.
In fact the only time I can recall her doing that well against an Iron Man was against the Iron Patriot when she was being revived. At that time she was getting massively amped by the Modok sperms, and she broke out of an Adamantium/Vibranium alloy that Sentry/Ares working together were said to have failed against had they tried. She shut down his suit pretty easily with raw power, but then again that second punch she landed on the Hulkbuster Iron Man would have disintegrated Iron Patriot, so... yeah. Comparable power levels being shown there IMO.
As for other showings...
She beat Master of The World with the Thundersword. She either knocked out a Great Beast or rocked it hard enough that they could bury it. The asteroid into the sun. She destroyed 6 Punisher Robots in Binary when one tanked Blue Marvel. I'm sure there's some other things she's done, but she's not a character I pay much attention to. She doesn't always do great things, but when she does it seems pretty far and away past her previous feats. I know she has those two big ones as Binary, but some of these feats are just pushing it, and some of them are in base form.
Something something something, she got a decent bump ever since she got the dyke hair, at least to me. Which makes sense actually. She's probably taking a lot of testosterone, and the more she transitions the stronger she'll be. Once she turns her clit into a monstrosity of a penis, I fully expect her to start team busting.
I'm not responding to everything you said, as we're in agreement on much. But, I can't get behind certain things, especially the Thanos comparisons.
There was a statement. The whole bit about the tainted energy is indicating she's trying it again.
Considering Tony was getting his asked kicked by Karnak and Black Panther in that arc, who was literally restraining him, it's clear Tony has taken a hit. His upgraded armor didn't propel him as far up in the power tiers as you think. There aren't hard rules about how much any given blast will amp her btw.
Additionally, you say that Thanos was being written down. That makes it entirely probable that those other players(who hit harder than you think) did tons of damage to him in this interpretation. He was stumbling out of the team assault like he was about to die.
Carol needed 4 attacks to do the same damage as Dazzler in 2...and she was amped. I'm being colorful, but these numbers mean little.
The scene in no way indicates that though. We'd be in agreement on a lot of things, but you keep trying to wedge this in there.
Regardless, we're about to go in circles arguing something potentially minor. We agree she's been upgraded. I just think you're exaggerating. You haven't concretely placed her for me, so I've got little to respond to other than the Thanos comparison.
Where do you place her on the conventional KMC tier list?
Last edited by StyleTime on May 14th, 2018 at 04:34 AM
Which is fine, though there's a jump from being taken out by the energy to absorbing it and becoming stronger. There however is a middle ground.
Even so, that is a disturbingly large jump off one energy attack. Again, taking her previous history into account I'd think that an impossible task to make it look as easy as she did without Binary.
But we both agree she got an unofficial amp.
While I don't agree it was great, it was only one shot to a weak point and BP pulled the Surfer hold on him. Then Carol comes out of nowhere to hit him twice which didn't ko him. Ass kicked is stretching that. They didn't exactly do anything to him besides the armpit elbow. Carol cracked his shell though.
As for your comment on his power, your boy Brain Mikal Bennis said he intended the armor to be stronger than a Hulkbuster armor
Complete piece of shit but still. That makes it even worse.
Oh I agree they did tons of damage, too much in fact. The issue is that Carol was shown to do more damage, land more attacks and even in Bendis land is written far above most of them. If Dazzler is doing so much damage, then Carol is doing more. The only one who seemed to do more damage was Human Torch with his initial attack... which... ****... but anyway, she did the majority of the damage - was shown that, and it follows considering my next point.
Also those lesser players probably hit softer than I think, but I digress.
This is far more of a breakdown than that showing deserves, and is trying to apply some semblance of meaning to a Bendis showing.
This entire part is Carver 101 so, yeah, you've been warned.
Well let's think about this in terms of Bendis logic or as we'll call it, Bending Logic.
Binary >> Captain Marvel > Hulkbuster Iron Man > Iron Man = War Machine
In the only real comparison between Cap (or Binary at least) vs Blue Marvel under Ewing, she is portrayed as a ways above him. So we'll assume just a wee bit above him for safety.
Blue Marvel is or should be far and away more powerful than anyone else on the team. Carol is above him.
What those numbers mean is that Carol attacked him more than a bunch of people she's more powerful than, some by a hefty amount as the rest fall on par or below War Machine. Bendis logic puts her far above him. Other stuff puts her above the actual capable members as well.
What this leads us to, is that even under the Bends she was doing more damage in relation to the others than the numbers indicate. And if she's already attacking the most... a lot more damage. It was a team effort yes, but she was still putting in more power output at least than Blue Marvel. Who should be doing a lot more damage than everyone else.
If you want to split that further up while going full Carver:
1 Blue Marvel will be used much like the Herc system.
Binary = Blue Marvel for the sake of this
How many Blue Marvels do you think Human Torch, War Machine, and Dazzler would output in one attack? Let's be fair and add 1. They each attacked twice, which is 2 Blue Marvels.
We'll call Spectrum half a BM, which gives the rest of the team 6 BMs.
Carol is at 4 Blue Marvels
The rest of the team is at 6 BMs. I took a BM this morning as I do every morning.
The total combined output needed to take down Thanos in that scene was 10 BMs. Carol is a 4 BM girl. That is 2/5s the power needed to beat Thanos. 10 of her attacks should put down Thanos.
I'm not proud of that.
Anyway...
The conclusion is she did a lot of work in that fight with only 4 attacks. I don't see how that's avoidable to come to from looking at the scans. You have a whole bunch of shit characters doing shitty things (outside Spectrum/BM) and Carol was the big gun.
That scene was pretty awful and every shot was landing hard. I wouldn't put it past the slippery **** to have her solo Thanos considering the foundation he laid there.
My intention was never to place her either, only to show her doing things previously thought impossible. To show that the writers can slip her to where ever they want really and to show she had some sort of amp since Hickman (or more accurately since the dyke hair) under the "right" writers. You ended up agreeing with me that she has an amp.
Bendis is easily high herald.
Ewing probably should be as well counting Binary.
The rest probably averages her out to mid herald at best. High meta to low herald depending on who's writing her. Whatever Hickman was writing Cap at seems like a safe bet for her average outside Benewingis.
I'm just waiting for her to fight Thor now that's he's a dude again.
She gets called Earth's mightiest hero in the vicinity of him. She blew up 6 Punisher Robots as Binary where one tanked his blast. His use has solely been to push her to Binary a few times. There's more I believe, but I don't want to check it out.
If Ewing had him punch her out I wouldn't bat an eye, but his intention seems to have her as the most powerful on the team with Blue Marvel being a battery pack. He's kind of mishandled outside of two fights. All he does is blast people now, though he mixes in the odd h2h showing to remind us that he is strong (Ult Hulk).
Miss America is the team strong guy now, and even had a decent showing against him and the whole team. And I think She-Hulk was stated to be stronger than him in A-Force though I'm not sure if that included people outside A-Force in the comparison.
There was no big jump. She absorbed a tainted energy blast and it poisoned her. It wasn't the strength of the blast. In the rematch, Blue Marvel inoculated her against the tainted energy so she could absorb it with no problems. There's no contradiction here dood.
Again, no hard rules with how a blast amps her. And maybe the new armor just provides that much fuel.
Saying he got his ass kicked is much less of a stretch than saying Carol, even Bendis Carol, could solo Thanos, or has demonstrated power anywhere near that.
I appreciate the carver humor, but again, this doesn't mean anything.
Help me out here. What's going on bro? We don't need to speculate what Bendis would have done with Carol. We saw what Bendis did with Carol. What Bendis did is show us Carol absolutely needs a large team backing her to fight Thanos. He clearly doesn't consider her anywhere near Thanos, regardless of how many carver calculations we throw at it.
This is silly, my guy. Since you're using Ewing to support Bendis, Carol, BM, Spectrum, and Chavez failed miserably. With an even larger group, they win.
If she trounces Thor, we could revisit this, yes. High Herald is stretching things right now. Superman would teabag her.
Carol isn't a true Bendis-force user like, say, Teen Jean is.
Last edited by StyleTime on May 14th, 2018 at 06:05 PM
We're just seeing this too different styletime. I could write up a response but I don't feel like it. I personally think both cases were complete garbage, and he went overboard on his shitting on Thanos/pumping up the heroes, but whatever. The Iron Man scene was just as bad to me as well, but I have no attachment to him so I don't care as much. Though you expect the Thanos one, the Iron Man one came out of nowhere. You think I'm exaggerating the Thanos one, but I think you're downplaying the Iron Man one. That is way different than any other encounter before. If we accept that as nothing wrong, that is a big boost to her power to say the least.
We're on different wavelengths. Agree to disagree.
I will say this though and I think it speaks louder than any love or words:
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May 12th, 2018 11:12 PM
