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Israel vs Saudi Arabia
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cdtm
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Israel vs Saudi Arabia

Which has more influence over American politics?

Aren't Saudi princes the richest people on the planet? I'm fairly certain the top 1% of Arabs have vastly more wealth and resources then Israel could possibly muster, even if every successful jew on the planet donated all of their earnings to the country. Not to mention, oil.


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Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.

Old Post May 17th, 2018 02:54 PM
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cdtm
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Here:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-a...nce-over-the-us


quote:
The Arab Lobby in America and Influence over the U.S.
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
08.24.10 6:55 PM ET

THE ARAB LOBBY.
Lost in all of the controversy over the mosque is the fact that the Arab lobby is one of the strongest in America—even stronger than Israel’s, says a controversial new book. Alan Dershowitz on how Arab governments influence U.S. politics.

While the media and politicians engage in frenzied debate about the virtues and vices of building—or preventing the building of—a Muslim community center (cum mosque) near the "sacred ground" of 9/11, Iran continues to build a nuclear weapon, as the Israelis and Palestinians take a tentative step toward building a peaceful resolution to their age-old conflict. Inevitably, whenever Middle East issues take center stage, the question of the role of lobbies, particularly those that advocate for foreign countries, becomes a hot topic. This book by longtime Middle East authority, Mitchell Bard, is a must read for anyone who cares—and who doesn't?—about the role of lobbies in influencing American policy in the Middle East. Its thesis, which is sure to be controversial, is easily summarized:

"If the reputation then builds that the Saudis take care of friends when they leave office, you'd be surprised how much better friends you have when they are just coming into office."

Yes Virginia, there is a big bad lobby that distorts U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East way out of proportion to its actual support by the American public. Professors Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer, author of the screed, The Israel Lobby, are right about that. But the offending lobby is not AIPAC, which supports Israel, but rather the Arab lobby, which opposes the Jewish state.

Both the pro-Israel and pro-Arab lobby (really lobbies because there are several for each) are indeed powerful but there is a big difference—a difference that goes to the heart of the role of lobbying in a democracy. Bard puts it this way:

"One of the most important distinguishing characteristics of the Arab lobby is that it has no popular support. While the Israeli lobby has hundreds of thousands of grass root members and public opinion polls consistently reveal a huge gap between support for Israel and the Arab nations/Palestinians, the Arab lobby has almost no foot soldiers or public sympathy. It's most powerful elements tend to be bureaucrats who represent only their personal views or what they believe are their institutional interests, and foreign governments that care only about their national interests, not those of the United States. What they lack in human capital in terms of American advocates, they make up for with almost unlimited resources to try to buy what they usually cannot win on the merits of their arguments."

This is a critical distinction for a democracy. The case for Israel (though not for all of its policies) is an easy sell for pro-Israel lobbyists, especially elected representatives. Voting in favor of Israel is popular not only in areas with a large concentration of Jewish voters, but throughout the country, because Israel is popular with Evangelical Christians in particular and with much, though certainly not all, of the public in general. Lobbies that reflect the will of the people are an important part of the democratic process. Thus, the American Association of Retired People (AARP), the principal lobbying group for the elderly, is extremely powerful because there are so many elderly people in this country who want to protect social security, Medicaid, and other benefits. The National Rifle Association (NRA) is a powerful lobby precisely because so many Americans, for better or worse, love their guns. And The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) is a powerful lobby because Americans, in general, support the Middle East's only democracy and reliable American ally.

But why is the Arab lobby, and most particularly the Saudi lobby, also powerful? Saudi Arabia has virtually no support among Americans. Indeed, it is widely reviled for its export of terrorists such as Osama bin Laden, its manipulation of oil prices, its anti-Christian and anti-Semitic policies, its total deprivation of any semblance of freedom of speech or dissent, and its primitive forms of punishment that include stoning and amputation. Yet, as Bard demonstrates, the Saudi lobby has beaten the pro-Israel lobby over and over again in head-to-head conflicts, such as the sale of sophisticated weapons to a regime that doesn't even have the technical skills to use them, and the conflict over whether to move the United States' embassy to Jerusalem. Even now, Saudi Arabia is lobbying to obtain a multibillion-dollar arms deal, and it is likely to succeed over the objections of Israel.

How then does a lobby with no popular support manage to exert influence in a democratic country? The secret is very simple. The Arab lobby in general and the Saudis in particular make little effort to influence popularly elected public officials, particularly legislators. Again, listen to Bard:

"The Saudis have taken a different tact from the Israeli lobby, focusing a top-down rather than bottom-up approach to lobbying. As hired gun, J. Crawford Cook, wrote in laying out his proposed strategy for the kingdom, 'Saudi Arabia has a need to influence the few that influence the many, rather than the need to influence the many to whom the few must respond.'"

The primary means by which the Saudis exercise this influence is money. They spend enormous amounts of lucre to buy (or rent) former state department officials, diplomats, White House aides, and legislative leaders who become their elite lobbying corps. Far more insidiously, the Saudis let it be known that if current government officials want to be hired following their retirement from government service, they had better hew to the Saudi line while they are serving in our government. The former Saudi ambassador to the United States, Prince Bandar, who was so close to the President George H.W. Bush that he referred to himself as "Bandar Bush," acknowledged the relationship between how a government official behaves while in office and how well he will be rewarded when he leaves office. "If the reputation then builds that the Saudis take care of friends when they leave office, you'd be surprised how much better friends you have when they are just coming into office."

Bard concludes from this well known quid pro quo that: "given the potential of these post-retirement opportunities, it would not be surprising if officials adopted positions while in government to make themselves marketable to the Arab lobby."

The methodology employed by the Arab lobby is thus totally inconsistent with democratic governance, because it does not reflect the will of the people but rather the corruption of the elite, while the Israeli lobby seems to operate within the parameters of democratic processes. Yet so much has been written about the allegedly corrosive nature of the Israeli lobby, while the powerful Arab lobby has widely escaped scrutiny and criticism. This important book thus contributes to the open marketplace of ideas by illuminating the dark side of the massive and largely undemocratic Arab lobbying efforts to influence American policy with regard to the Middle East.

Plus: Check out Book Beast, for more news on hot titles and authors and excerpts from the latest books.

Professor Alan M. Dershowitz is a Brooklyn native who has been called “the nation’s most peripatetic civil liberties lawyer” and one of its “most distinguished defenders of individual rights.” He is the Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law at Harvard Law School. He has also published more than 100 articles in magazines and journals, and more than 300 of his articles have appeared in syndication in 50 national daily newspapers. Professor Dershowitz is the author of 27 fiction and nonfiction works. Professor Dershowitz's new novel, The Trials of Zion , will be published by Hachette Book Group on October 1, 2010


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What CDTM believes;

Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.

Old Post May 17th, 2018 03:00 PM
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Robtard
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Good question, actually. While the Saudis can most definitely afford to buy more of our politicians and money goes a long way in politics, there's still that extremely strong pro-Israel sentiment in America. We have [non Jewish] citizens and law makers who believe "Jews are God's chosen people" and therefore Israel must be protected as if it was a fact.


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Old Post May 17th, 2018 04:27 PM
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ESB -1138
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Re: Israel vs Saudi Arabia

quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
Which has more influence over American politics?

Aren't Saudi princes the richest people on the planet? I'm fairly certain the top 1% of Arabs have vastly more wealth and resources then Israel could possibly muster, even if every successful jew on the planet donated all of their earnings to the country. Not to mention, oil.


I'd say Israel has more influence seeing as how the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman, came out saying that Israel has a right to exist and said, "In the last several decades the Palestinian leadership has missed one opportunity after the other and rejected all peace proposals it was given. It is about time the Palestinians take the proposals and agree to come to the negotiations table or shut up and stop complaining."


https://www.axios.com/saudi-crown-p...37ddb5a553.html


So, going off that, it would seem that Saudi Arabia is hoping to appear more moderate. That's why I would suggest that Israel has more influence.


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Old Post May 17th, 2018 04:47 PM
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Surtur
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I'd say Saudi Arabia has more influence. Think about how much f*cked up shit they have done in the years past that various presidents have essentially looked the other way on. I remember it was a big deal recently cuz they let women drive lol.


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Old Post May 17th, 2018 04:50 PM
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They are Shadow Allies, Flights from India to Israel now go over Saudi Airspace. Both are at war with Iran, the enemy of my enemy is my ally etc. MBS is very different to previous Saudi leaders. The Israeli's are flying drones over the Sinai to attack Ansir Bait etc.

As someone who lives in Riyadh for four more weeks, MBS is making sweeping changes women drive next month and we have cinemas in Riyadh now.


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Last edited by Putinbot1 on May 17th, 2018 at 04:54 PM

Old Post May 17th, 2018 04:52 PM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Putinbot1
They are Shadow Allies, Flights from India to Israel now go over Saudi Airspace. Both are at war with Iran, the enemy of my enemy is my ally etc. MBS is very different to previous Saudi leaders. The Israeli's are flying drones over the Sinai to attack Ansir Bait etc.

As someone who lives in Riyadh for four more weeks, MBS is making sweeping changes women drive next month and we have cinemas in Riyadh now.


Not even sure they're hiding it anymore, their combined hatred of Iran brings them together.


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Old Post May 17th, 2018 05:02 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Not even sure they're hiding it anymore, their combined hatred of Iran brings them together.
Pretty much Rob.


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Old Post May 17th, 2018 07:22 PM
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To really understand modern KSA and why MBS faces such a struggle to reform. Even to understand some of the issues with Iran. One incident is key.

https://worldview.stratfor.com/arti...unts-house-saud

Well worth a read.


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Old Post May 23rd, 2018 09:22 PM
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