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Boba Fett or Cad Bane
Started by: DarthPlaguis12

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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
Nope, Nope n nope
Concession accepted.


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Old Post Jun 16th, 2018 10:12 AM
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DarthPlaguis12
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I win you lose quan as it’s always been

Old Post Jun 16th, 2018 02:16 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
I win you lose quan as it’s always been
No, your refusal to accept the facts is a you thing. I embrace facts.


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Old Post Jun 16th, 2018 02:50 PM
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DarthPlaguis12
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I win, the sooner you accept it the sooner you’ll grow up n get a real life.

Old Post Jun 17th, 2018 08:48 AM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
I win, the sooner you accept it the sooner you’ll grow up n get a real life.
Lies. I won get over it.


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Old Post Jun 17th, 2018 01:17 PM
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DarthPlaguis12
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Then I’ve ruined you, you’re my puppet

Old Post Jun 17th, 2018 05:16 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
Then I’ve ruined you, you’re my puppet
Nah, you lost.


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Old Post Jun 17th, 2018 11:07 PM
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Zentrex
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You know what, I'm gonna copy and paste your arguments.

quote:
He died from a weak ass illusion. I haven’t seen the one Sidious performed.


That's not even the argument here. How do you know the illusion is weak? I've already told you why I think the illusion is a difficult and taxing feat. Tell me why you think it isn't. And don't mention legends.

As far as the Sidious one goes, he did it in TCW when he used Dooku's blood in a ritual to create a force bond between him and Yoda. This led to Yoda and Anakin having an illusion about fighting with Sidious and Dooku. It's this one:

https://youtu.be/QBYUNU0rNCs?t=31s

quote:
Um no? Luke did nothing that was equal to Vader’s power. Now you’re just back tracking and sounding idiotic.


You're really gonna have to start being more specific. I literally laid down the entirety of what happened and then made the connections I did. Your response was "no." Tell me WHY, please.

Luke did nothing that was equal's to vader's power? How about defeating him in battle?

I'm backtracking? What have I said that I took back. I want you to find the exact two sentences where I "backtracked" and present them to me.

quote:
Kylo knocked out Luke, end of story, this supposed grand master was knocked out and his order destroyed. Kylo could have killed him, same with Rey.


Let me repeat my statement: Luke was in a moment of weakness and vulnerability, because he was in shock from what he just tried to do. If you want to debunk this claim, then tell me why he wasn't.

quote:
Every other time a death has happened in film it was due to either being killed or natural causes.


I JUST said that we disagree on that idea. You believe Kenobi died from being killed, I do not. There's no way to know, it's open to interpretation, so arguing it further is a waste of time.

quote:
Yes common sense says Sidious is either as powerful as Snoke or more powerful, tell me, how would Snoke even defend himself against Sidious as he can’t even use a saber?


So, this comment should be adressing your comment which said "evidence?" when I said "A feat over lightyears doesn't automatically translate into a strong feat over lightyears." So, I said the evidence was common sense. Please respond to that claim.

Snoke would defend himself from Sidious through force abilities which a lightsaber can't do anything against.

He knows psionic powers that Sidious is not familiar with. In fact it's even impied that Snoke mind-phucked Sidious from the unknown regions, which is why Sidious started his Contingency plan.

quote:
You’re equating them to more skilled force users, you’ve debunked nothing.


First, you claimed that Dooku, Ventress, and PT era jedi masters would be able to more easily dismantle the Preatorians than Kylo and Rey. I asked for evidence and you said that we've seen them incorporate Force attacks into their fights. I said we've also seen Kylo and Rey incorporate force attacks intot their fights.

I've been waiting for a response which tells me WHY you think Dooku and Ventress would perform better other than the debunked idea that we've seen them incorporate force abilities in their fights.

OR, if it's not debunked, I want you to tell me why you think Dooku and Ventress using force abilities when fighting proves that they can perform better, when Kylo and Rey using force abilities when fighting doesn't.

You are working under this unkillable assumption that Kylo and Rey are newbs, but there's nothing I've seen which supports this notion. I'm asking you to prove your beliefs. Is that too much?

quote:
Bro, Only few force users have ever had the ability to take on armies.


You're either not readin what I've written or you're trolling me for the lols. I'm going to try one last time. Your logic implies that force users should be able to take on armies. They can't. Thus, your logic is wrong. That's what I'm saying. Tell me why I'm wrong.

quote:
Yeah so?


Which comment of mine are you even responding to here?

quote:
Hmmm, can saber fight for one, can do things across a distance, etc.


But can he project himself from one side of the galaxy to the other for 10 minutes in the minds of literally every single being present *in canon*? He's neven done anything that powerful. Can he create a force bond which is so strong, it transports matter and people? He's never done anything that powerful.

Being able to fight with a lightsaber and remove handcuffs/choke someone who wasn't resisting isn't nearly good enough to contend with the above.

quote:
No as usual you’re just making shit up as it’s never happened


Tell me why. And if that didn't happen what did happen? And why do you think so? Because it's crystal clear in my mind that Luke let her win because he didn't want things to get serious. I'm not making that up, I'm supporting that with the fact that he owned her until she pulled out a lightsaber, that he's a pacifist, and that he's a master and she's not.

Old Post Jun 18th, 2018 12:36 AM
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DarthPlaguis12
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Because it’s nothing more then an illusion, we’ve already seen that other force users can do things across light years and not die, Luke was def not as strong as Yoda, Vader, Snoke, etc. ok? So what if Sidious did a ritual, why are you comparing Yoda to Luke, Luke is no Yoda.

Vader was never trying to kill Luke, end of story it’s even been shown in the recent Vader comics. Tell me one thing Luke has done to match Vaders feats ever. Please do.

Luke was knocked out, his school burned, then later he was knocked in his ass again. You just make excuses.

I don’t care what you think, he obviously died cause of Vader.

You can’t just use the force against a light saber bro lol, now you’re truly full of shit. Snoke would have no defense against Sidious light saber for one. As for all these amazing force skills he has over Sidious, which ones are they? You’re so full of it. But as it’s over light years doesn’t that require more power so that would make Sidious as powerful as Snoke.

Are you kidding? Now they’re not newbs? Was kylo fully trained, no, was rey? Dooku was a Sith Lord, Ventress was extremely adept and a dark acolyte. I’ve already explained how the more mentally focused you are the more able to work the force during battle. How often have kylo or rey used the force in battle as flawlessly as dooku or Ventress where they force choke people, throw objects etc?

Retard, you’re the one who said they could take in armies not me. I say the more powerful force users can indeed do so.

You made it so look it up

It is an illusion so of course it would be in everyone’s vision...I mean a hologram appears to everyone. I’m pretty sure Sidious could do this n you know....not die. You just said he created a force bond between himself n Yoda lol. Nothing Snoke has done has been more powerful then Sidious

He lost to two novices that’s how I know he’s no master. Instead you wanna argue about how he can’t own her cause she’ll get hurt lol. Since when is he a pacifist? Running away from things isn’t a pacifist it’s a coward

Old Post Jun 18th, 2018 05:46 AM
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Zentrex
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quote:
Because it’s nothing more then an illusion


You can't assume how powerful an ability is just from how powerful you think it should be. Your assertion is speculation and completely unfounded.

What Luke did is confirmed to be mind trick/force bond on a MASSIVE scale. Go back and read the thesis I wrote on this ability, and if you can prove any of my points wrong, then you have something.

quote:
we’ve already seen that other force users can do things across light years and not die


We've also seen force users use telekinesis without getting winded. But that doesn't mean users won't get winded after a demanding telekinetic feat.

quote:
So what if Sidious did a ritual


It took Sidious a ritual to perform the same thing Snoke and Luke did on will.

quote:
Vader was never trying to kill Luke.


I never said he WAS. I just said, at the beginning, when niether of them wanted to kill each other, no one was winning. Then, when Luke became rage amped, Vader couldn't defend himself.

If Vader was better, he would've been able to defend himself, and not let Luke get any hits in near the beginning. Also, return of the jedi novel confirms Luke was the better duelist.

quote:
Tell me one thing Luke has done to match Vaders feats ever. Please do.


Luke defeated Vader, that's one.
Secondly, he found knowledge about the force which was lost to the jedi for generations, and learned all the jedi knew from Lor San Tekka. Then, he went to the weird blue stone planet and learned how to wield the force differently there.
There was also that time when he made an entire star destroyer shake with a single force push.

quote:
Luke was knocked out, his school burned, then later he was knocked in his ass again. You just make excuses.


It's not an excuse, it's one of the main parts of the plot. Luke was in a moment of weakness. If you didn't get this, then you didn't understand that part of the film.

quote:
I don’t care what you think, he obviously died cause of Vader.


Well, we're in a debate, and if you want to convince me you're going to have to be logically consistent, not treat your subjective interpretations as superior to mine.

quote:
You can’t just use the force against a light saber


You can't use a lightsaber against the force, either. And you can hurt people with the force, and from farther away than with a lightsaber. On Snoke and Palpatine's level, lightsabers aren't really necessary.

Though the creators have said that Snoke is vulnerable, probably because of his body, so one good attack's probably going to do him in, but if he's sufficiently more powerful than Palpatine, he can prevent that attack from landing.

Oh, also you can disarm people's lightsabers with the force.

quote:
As for all these amazing force skills he has over Sidious, which ones are they?


He has knowledge of the origins of the force in the unknown regions which palpatine was after, so he had knowledge of some force abilities Palpatine didn't.
Also, he called to palpatine from the unknown regions and gave him visions which Palpatine didn't understand. These visions also made Darth Vader think Palpatine was going crazy, so that shows that he's a better psionic force wielder than Palpatine.

quote:
Was kylo fully trained, no, was rey?


Kylo did indeed recieve extensive training from both Luke and Snoke. And Rey is just as powerful as he is, because the whole "cosmic balance; the dark rises and the light to meet it" plot convenience. Also, Rey had some experience with a fighting from her time at Jakku.

Not to mention that the hut collapsing feat by kylo and rock lifting feat by rey were the second most powerful casual application of telekinesis we've seen in the films, the first being Palpatine lauching the senate pods.

You might want to read this: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/foru...thread-1756638/

quote:
How often have kylo or rey used the force in battle as flawlessly as dooku or Ventress?


I don't know, when he put blasters bolts into force stasis, collapsed a hut with one move, smashed a metal helmet to pieces with his bare fists, put Rey to sleep with one motion, froze Rey with one motion, etc.
And for Rey, lifting all those rocks to rescue her friends, defeating an injured Kylo, using the mind trick on a stormtrooper, and creating a force bond with Kylo at the end of TLJ after Snoke's death.

quote:
you’re the one who said they could take in armies not me. You made it so look it up


here are my exact words:
quote:
Anyone can be distracted from using the force, otherwise jedi would be able to take out entire armies by themselves. But so many of them died in Geonosis. Because they can't kill people/destroy machines with TK when they're trying to evade attacks coming at them quickly.

What do you think I'm trying to say here?

quote:
It is an illusion so of course it would be in everyone’s vision...I mean a hologram appears to everyone


A hologram is not an illusion. It is actually light being bent to create an image. It exists. Luke projected himself in the minds of everyone there individually. Nothing was there. It was all in their minds.

quote:
You just said he created a force bond between himself n Yoda


I said he used a ritual to access the force bond between Dooku and Yoda. Also, it was in close proximity, not lightyears away.

quote:
He lost to two novices that’s how I know he’s no master. Instead you wanna argue about how he can’t own her cause she’ll get hurt lol. Since when is he a pacifist?


You might also want to read this:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/foru...thread-1682724/

Why is "he doesn't want to hurt her" so "lol"? It makes sense. That's the only logical way to interpret that scene. He's a pacifist since he's a jedi.

Old Post Jun 18th, 2018 04:44 PM
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DarthPlaguis12
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You didn’t make a thesis, second if you’re saying I assume stuff then so are you...right? But I can properly assume that being able to use the force across light years to affect people is powerful. An illusion which did nothing except distract isn’t, as you yourself admitted Sidious n Snoke did similar things but didn’t die.

Depends on how much power is needed, Yoda has had to except himself but then again he’s old. The fact Luke died proves how weak he was

But the force and sorcery are two different mediums...it just means Sidious used a different means, secondly Snoke strengthened an existing bond, Sidious created one on an equally powerful force user, Snoke worked on what existed on two weak newbs

Are the novels even canon, if so then Sidious is equal to Yoda n stringer then windu. BRO REMEMBER NOOOO LEGENDS lol. Just because Luke beat him doesn’t mean anything though, as I said and you admitted Vader wasn’t trying to win. We saw in cloud city that when Vader got serious he beat the shit out of Luke using the force lol

Again Vader wasn’t trying to win. I’m pretty sure as a force ghost Vader was way more powerful then Luke as you’re bringing up shit Luke did after his death, but even then nine of those things equal Vader’s power. Lifting imperial walkers, beating genetically amped imperial agents, killing 200 rebels, etc. oooo he made a Star destroyer shake...so what?

But if Luke was as powerful as Yoda or Vader then how would he have been knocked out so easily lol...he basically lost twice to novices. He then ran away. He lost bro, a loss is a loss

But it’s not a debate, it happened on screen, you can’t debate facts. Did Luke not die from his force feat? Did Yoda not die from old age? This bs about giving ones self to the five is bs lol

Oh I’m sorry..you can defend against against a saber using the force, Yoda n Assad Ventress have done it. None the less you have to be proficient with the force. No one has ever said smokes more powerful bro, nor has he proven to be. Sidious is equal in power plus has his ability to use his saber, Snoke would pretty much die

He had knowledge...so what? They’ve said he has more resources then Sidious not power, then again that as well can’t be true as the empire was way bigger. Obviously Sidious DIDNT go unsane n was planning to meet Snoke so that points moot

Lol...whattttt!!?? He was not say a Jedi Knight or in par with a sigh lord, Snoke even said he’d complete his training, now you’re just flat out lying 😂😂 wow he collapsed a hut...so what Sidious is stronger then Vader who can lift walkers...Sidious was destroying hard to kill monsters as well using his lightning while Vader was struggling lol

Rey did nothing any Jedi Knight couldn't do, she mind tricked a storm trooper...uh so? Kylo froze a newb Rey? Wowwww obvious,y he struggled with a more trained Rey and as you mentioned the praetorians right? Has Rey or kylo ever taken on say a Jedi master n Knight at once like dooku? Has Rey or kylo ever beaten Jedi masters like Sidious? The fact you say Luke could have beat Rey is basically you admitting her n Rey are newbs and can’t do anything against a master lol...

You’re being retarded saying Jedi who aren’t distracted can beat armies?

But again there’s a difference between him creating a bond between him and a Jedi grandmaster like Yoda n Snoke doing the same between two newbs, he even said Rey n kylo were too stupid to know it was him lol

Jedi are not pacifists lol....they do strive for peace n diplomacy but that’s not a pacifist. They were in battles for millennia against lord kaan, the clone wars, etc etc

Bro you lost I win, at this point you’re trolling or lying

Old Post Jun 18th, 2018 06:11 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zentrex
You can't assume how powerful an ability is just from how powerful you think it should be. Your assertion is speculation and completely unfounded.
I find this statement a bit ironic, given that your entire line of reasoning for Snoke being the most powerful force-user ever in canon is rooted almost entirely in your own personal speculation/opinion/conjecture.

Not going to get back into this with you(this topic is clearly going nowhere), but at least be consistent with your ideals. /shrug


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Old Post Jun 18th, 2018 10:16 PM
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Zentrex
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Just curious, but what speculation have I relied on in this argument?


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Old Post Jun 18th, 2018 10:35 PM
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DarthPlaguis12
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Everything.

For example you think think Luke is this ultimate bad ass yet somehow compare dooku n Ventress to Kylo n Rey in force ability. I think you’re trolling.

Fact is you’re making 90 percent of you4 bs up. Obi wan have himself up, Luke is as strong as Vader, Snoke is this amazing force user.

Old Post Jun 18th, 2018 11:39 PM
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quanchi112
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Bias is everywhere in Star Wars fandom save myself and a few others.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2018 01:07 PM
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DarthPlaguis12
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I’m glad you admit your loss quan

Old Post Jun 19th, 2018 01:28 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
I’m glad you admit your loss quan
I won.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2018 02:02 PM
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You lost and you admitted it, thank you

Old Post Jun 19th, 2018 02:53 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
You lost and you admitted it, thank you
No, I won.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2018 03:07 PM
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Zentrex
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quote:
You didn’t make a thesis


Remember this?:

We know from Johnson's comments that Projection in this version is not like the doppelganger in legends, but like the force bond that we were shown earlier in the film.

quote:
“When Luke shows up he’s projecting, it’s like a hardcore variation of what Kylo and Rey have been doing the whole time and that’s why it takes so much out of him,” he explained. “We tried to play really, really fair. In terms of his footsteps – we removed all of his foley — there are no footstep sounds. They never touch. And if you look, the salt flakes that are falling are sparking off of Kylo’s saber and not off of Luke’s.”
-Rian Johnson


So this means Luke was projecting himself in the mind of EVERY person present, and of course, in the circuits of all the droids there. It's like a mind trick on a massive scale.

And doesn't it just make sense? Luke grew so much in such a short amount of time in the originals. So him being one of the most powerful force users ever makes sense.

quote:
if you’re saying I assume stuff then so are you...right? But I can properly assume that being able to use the force across light years to affect people is powerful. An illusion which did nothing except distract isn’t, as you yourself admitted Sidious n Snoke did similar things but didn’t die.


I'm...trying my best not to, though there's admittedly little to work with. Luke didn't create some force hologram as you seem to think. He created a force bond with all the hundreds there to make them think he was there when he wasn't. This is confirmed by Johnson, if you read above. So he was using the force to "affect" people from lightyears away. Hundreds of people. After years of cutting himself off from the force. At the age of 66. It's pretty impressive.

And no, you can't assume that an illusion, just because it isn't tangible and does nothing more than distract, is less taxing than other abilities. That's the defintion of speculation.

Snoke did the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale, but with a more powerful application, and without threat of his death, but that only proves he's maybe more powerful than Skywalker.

Palpatine did not do the same thing. He used a ritual to do it, which required Dooku's blood and could not be done on a whim. It was also done when Yoda was in the same room. Though it was planned to be done from farther away, it was not planned to be done from lightyears away, and defenitely not half the galaxy away.

And though I know you don't put much faith into out-of-universe sources, Star Wars Theory, just before the Last Jedi released, said that he'd been getting accurate information from a source which said that the Last Jedi would feature the greatest display of force power we've ever seen. Some other things in that video turned out to be wrong, but the force projection feat, I think, was meant to be the "uber powerful ability" that Star Wars Theory mentioned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZejHMdLWaU

Galan claimed that you can't compare this feat with others, but I mean, Luke was shown in the comics to study all these lost pieces of jedi knowledge, and surviving pieces of jedi knowledge as well. And then he decided to shun the jedi and study the force closer to its origins, the way the people of the unknown regions did, which implies that he became even more powerful. And this was after he was already as powerful as darth vader. The novelization was canonized by the way with the paperback versions of the original trilogy being released in 2017. And Luke's ending epic feat which surprised everyone was that projection feat. So it would make sense that it's a strong ability.

I know you don't believe Luke to be very powerful because of his "fights" with Rey and Kylo, but it's obvious our interpretations of the scenes are very different.

And then there's Snoke, built up as the uber mind-manipulation god of ancient, lost psionic powers from the unknown regions, who (I'll admit, it's only hinted at) penetrated Sidious' brain which caused him to form the contingency. He also knew what happened in the throne room when the death star II exploded, right down to what Vader was feeling. So he's a powerful guy. Thus, it would make sense that this ability of his, which we've never seen before save Palpatine's ritual, is super impressive and beyond the capabilities of others.

quote:
Depends on how much power is needed, Yoda has had to except himself but then again he’s old. The fact Luke died proves how weak he was


Depends on how much power is needed, exactly. Your assertion that little power is needed to perform the force illusion isn't really based on anything except speculation. I'll admit my argument isn't perfect, either, but at least it relies on some powerscaling and quotes from people who worked on the film, and what disney would do, and whatever other information I can scrape out. I'll admit my assertion that Force bond is the most impressive feat is still...up for debate, as there's too little information. But in the new canon, with users such as Luke and Snoke into the picture, the idea that Sidious is the top dog, is also no longer definite canon.

quote:
But the force and sorcery are two different mediums...it just means Sidious used a different means, secondly Snoke strengthened an existing bond, Sidious created one on an equally powerful force user, Snoke worked on what existed on two weak newbs


It's actually the other way around. The bond between Dooku and Yoda already existed, Sidious simply used sorcery to create an illusion in Yoda's mind through it. Snoke, on the other hand, connected and unconnected Kylo and Rey's more potent bond on his whim. Snoke's showing here is more impressive.

And while Sorcery may be a different medium, I imagine that if Sidious could have just used the force, he would have, as it's easier, faster, doesn't require blood or alters or being in special locations yada yada yada. So I have to believe that Sidious used the ritual because he was incapable of doing it with his own power.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2018 04:30 PM
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