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Does socialism kill innovation?
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Mindship
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Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 10:45 AM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
Definitely. People aren't acknowledging it though.

Right, but that isn't what happened here. What happened here is multiple posters making caricatures of and mocking socialism, despite contrary statistics no less.

And in the real world, let's be serious here. Most naysayers are reacting to the term "socialism" alone. They aren't simply voicing concerns over a specific policy. They are legit afraid of the word.

That's why I want to do a full blown, Jean Grey mindwipe. Then, hopefully, we can just discuss this stuff without the baggage, or at least with much less of the baggage.


I've seen zero evidence most nay sayers just fear the word. Proof please. I see people panic over the dipshit policies spewed by these folk. If you have some sort of documented evidence, show it. If this is just personal opinion...it has been noted.

Socialism should be mocked. People who think "we gots social programs!" is a gotcha should also be mocked. Reminds me of the same geniuses who bring up Denmark when playing up how awesome socialism is. Bernie tried that and got slapped down.


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Last edited by Surtur on Aug 25th, 2018 at 11:56 AM

Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 11:50 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Socialism should be mocked. People who think "we gots social programs!" is a gotcha should also be mocked.


But...you leave no middle ground, then. The middle ground is "some socialism."


Unless you're going to say all police and fire departments should be privatized? In which case, I somewhat agree. Just depends.


What about water sanitization and treatment? What about electricity? Should it be owned and operated by the government?


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 04:23 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
But...you leave no middle ground, then. The middle ground is "some socialism."


Unless you're going to say all police and fire departments should be privatized? In which case, I somewhat agree. Just depends.


What about water sanitization and treatment? What about electricity? Should it be owned and operated by the government?


It's certainly accurate to say we're capitalist country with generous social programs. What I'm saying is it is silly to use that as a sort of "gotcha" the way it tends to get used. People are aware we have these social programs. We even have one called "Social Security" lol. It's not a gotcha and it doesn't counter people who are worried about the policies the democratic socialists are pushing. It's just like going "but Denmark!" or something.

I will admit yes there are people who talk about where pure socialism can lead(plus making fun of Venezuela is just plain funny), but I think it's disingenuous for people to act like there is not significant concern specifically over the policies people like Alexandria Ocasio Cortez want. The specific policies she wants to push *do* get discussed.


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Last edited by Surtur on Aug 25th, 2018 at 05:33 PM

Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 05:24 PM
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roughrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
Definitely. People aren't acknowledging it though.



And in the real world, let's be serious here. Most naysayers are reacting to the term "socialism" alone. They aren't simply voicing concerns over a specific policy. They are legit afraid of the word.



The Cold War played a large part in it. For decades, anything policy relating to Russia & Communism was demonized as 'other' and 'non-American.' Cuba wrests free of American control in 1959 and declares itself a socialist state just 90 miles from Florida, increasing paranoia. Vietnam played a part too, becoming an armed fight. I wonder how shocked Americans were when Nixon opened up China to the west in 1973, despite them being Communist (to this day, though perhaps now in name only.) It hasn't stopped the hardliners at all.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 07:13 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by roughrider
The Cold War played a large part in it. For decades, anything policy relating to Russia & Communism was demonized as 'other' and 'non-American.' Cuba wrests free of American control in 1959 and declares itself a socialist state just 90 miles from Florida, increasing paranoia. Vietnam played a part too, becoming an armed fight. I wonder how shocked Americans were when Nixon opened up China to the west in 1973, despite them being Communist (to this day, though perhaps now in name only.) It hasn't stopped the hardliners at all.


And hell history is repeating itself lol. Once again we have utter hysteria over Russia. And it just boggles the mind when you consider the same people getting so god damn hysterical over Russia are some of the same people who laughed and laughed at Mitt Romney over his comments warning about Russia. And hell it's not like Russia only started trying to influence our elections once Trump decided to run.


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Last edited by Surtur on Aug 25th, 2018 at 07:31 PM

Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 07:29 PM
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Putinbot1
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
Technically he's not wrong. Sweden is one of the most innovative countries in the world.

(please log in to view the image)

The problem isn't our lack of innovation, it's our lack of opportunities to make profit off of that innovation.



/end thread, showing innovation isn't driven by individuals profiting but by corporations and businesses profiting which many countries with a socialist style welfare state understand.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 07:33 PM
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Surtur
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The innovations of Sweden are irrelevant since they aren't a socialist country.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 07:40 PM
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Adam Grimes
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
And hell history is repeating itself lol. Once again we have utter hysteria over Russia. And it just boggles the mind when you consider the same people getting so god damn hysterical over Russia are some of the same people who laughed and laughed at Mitt Romney over his comments warning about Russia. And hell it's not like Russia only started trying to influence our elections once Trump decided to run.
Lol you didn't even understand their posts.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 07:46 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Lol you didn't even understand their posts.


Incorrect, but you tried.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 07:47 PM
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Putinbot1
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Lol you didn't even understand their posts.
He will claim you are wrong while not understanding your post either Adam.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 08:11 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Putinbot1
He will claim you are wrong while not understanding your post either Adam.


You're gonna have to troll better. I realize the hysteria around Russia being pointed out triggers you but facts are facts.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 08:14 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
I've seen zero evidence most nay sayers just fear the word. Proof please. I see people panic over the dipshit policies spewed by these folk. If you have some sort of documented evidence, show it. If this is just personal opinion...it has been noted.

Well, the argument goes as such: It's well established that young Americans view socialism far more favorably than older Americans. Some polls showing 55% of "millenials" have a favorable view of socialism in addition to their favorable of capitalism. (This is documented pretty much everywhere from both conservative and liberal outlets, but here's some links)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/191354...le-changed.aspx
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...0709-story.html
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/28/poli...tics/index.html
http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/07/...r-goldberg-says

Young Americans are also significantly more educated than older Americans, indicating a larger likelihood of more nuanced understandings of these topics.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...chelors-degree/

America literally went through ages like the The Red /Scare, where fear was the primary tool in demonizing any non-capitalist ideas. Legitimate viewpoints were forced the margins and supporters punished to varying degrees. It's quite safe to say the fear of socialism is embedded in our cultural makeup. Without proper education and alternative information outlets provided by today's technology, this lingering fear colors a large chunk of society's idea of "socialism." Many conservative outlets still invoke the fear rhetoric of the past. It's in decline since the younger generation has more resources available to combat the one narrative propaganda of the past, but it's still there.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
It's certainly accurate to say we're capitalist country with generous social programs. What I'm saying is it is silly to use that as a sort of "gotcha" the way it tends to get used. People are aware we have these social programs. We even have one called "Social Security" lol. It's not a gotcha and it doesn't counter people who are worried about the policies the democratic socialists are pushing. It's just like going "but Denmark!" or something.

I will admit yes there are people who talk about where pure socialism can lead(plus making fun of Venezuela is just plain funny), but I think it's disingenuous for people to act like there is not significant concern specifically over the policies people like Alexandria Ocasio Cortez want. The specific policies she wants to push *do* get discussed.

Well, I'd say it feels like a "gotcha" because it's a good point. Unless you went exclusively to private schools, travel in private aircraft, employ a private security force, live completely off the grid somewhere, etc, socialism touches your life. It's quite deeply embedded in our current system.

Sure, we can discuss how to tweak policies, and I'd welcome that. As I said before though, that isn't what happened. Everyone just said "lolsocialism" while ignoring Astner's chart, which flies in the face of that. There was no reasoned discussion. Just jokes.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
The innovations of Sweden are irrelevant since they aren't a socialist country.

Then we aren't capitalist. You will be hardpressed to find a pure economy in the developed world.

The Nordic model is definitely what the world is looking to as a socialist ideal at the moment. They are consistently rated the happiest places on Earth, so they are definitely doing something right. They are showing capitalism and socialism can totally coexist just fine, which is all I and the others have been saying.

We don't need anymore of this right vs left idenity bullshit, quite frankly.


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Last edited by StyleTime on Aug 26th, 2018 at 04:25 AM

Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 04:10 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, the argument goes as such: It's well established that young Americans view socialism far more favorably than older Americans. Some polls showing 55% of "millenials" have a favorable view of socialism in addition to their favorable of capitalism. (This is documented pretty much everywhere from both conservative and liberal outlets, but here's some links)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/191354...le-changed.aspx
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...0709-story.html
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/28/poli...tics/index.html
http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/07/...r-goldberg-says

Young Americans are also significantly more educated than older Americans, indicating a larger likelihood of more nuanced understandings of these topics.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...chelors-degree/


As these young Americans age, they will become more conserative. We've known this trend for ages:

quote:
By taking the average of seven different groups of several thousand people each over time covering most periods between general elections since the 1960s we found that the maximum possible ageing effect averages out at a 0.38% increase in Conservative voters per year. The minimum possible ageing effect was only somewhat lower, at 0.32% per year.


https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ng-old-politics

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...oting-behavior/


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 06:15 AM
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Eternal Idol
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
As these young Americans age, they will become more conserative. We've known this trend for ages:



https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ng-old-politics

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...oting-behavior/


The trend is known, yet I found these articles interesting, anyhow. Personally, I don't think I fit the trend. I'm over 30, and I've realized that I was much more conservative in my youth, and have only grown more liberal/progressive as I've gotten older, especially on social issues.


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 09:56 AM
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Adam Grimes
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Incorrect, but you tried.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Putinbot1
He will claim you are wrong while not understanding your post either Adam.

Bingo


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 04:05 PM
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Putinbot1
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, the argument goes as such: It's well established that young Americans view socialism far more favorably than older Americans. Some polls showing 55% of "millenials" have a favorable view of socialism in addition to their favorable of capitalism. (This is documented pretty much everywhere from both conservative and liberal outlets, but here's some links)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/191354...le-changed.aspx
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...0709-story.html
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/28/poli...tics/index.html
http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/07/...r-goldberg-says

Young Americans are also significantly more educated than older Americans, indicating a larger likelihood of more nuanced understandings of these topics.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...chelors-degree/Very good post old pal.

America literally went through ages like the The Red /Scare, where fear was the primary tool in demonizing any non-capitalist ideas. Legitimate viewpoints were forced the margins and supporters punished to varying degrees. It's quite safe to say the fear of socialism is embedded in our cultural makeup. Without proper education and alternative information outlets provided by today's technology, this lingering fear colors a large chunk of society's idea of "socialism." Many conservative outlets still invoke the fear rhetoric of the past. It's in decline since the younger generation has more resources available to combat the one narrative propaganda of the past, but it's still there.

Well, I'd say it feels like a "gotcha" because it's a good point. Unless you went exclusively to private schools, travel in private aircraft, employ a private security force, live completely off the grid somewhere, etc, socialism touches your life. It's quite deeply embedded in our current system.

Sure, we can discuss how to tweak policies, and I'd welcome that. As I said before though, that isn't what happened. Everyone just said "lolsocialism" while ignoring Astner's chart, which flies in the face of that. There was no reasoned discussion. Just jokes.

Then we aren't capitalist. You will be hardpressed to find a pure economy in the developed world.

The Nordic model is definitely what the world is looking to as a socialist ideal at the moment. They are consistently rated the happiest places on Earth, so they are definitely doing something right. They are showing capitalism and socialism can totally coexist just fine, which is all I and the others have been saying.

We don't need anymore of this right vs left idenity bullshit, quite frankly.


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 04:09 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, the argument goes as such: It's well established that young Americans view socialism far more favorably than older Americans. Some polls showing 55% of "millenials" have a favorable view of socialism in addition to their favorable of capitalism. (This is documented pretty much everywhere from both conservative and liberal outlets, but here's some links)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/191354...le-changed.aspx
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...0709-story.html
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/28/poli...tics/index.html
http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/07/...r-goldberg-says

Young Americans are also significantly more educated than older Americans, indicating a larger likelihood of more nuanced understandings of these topics.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...chelors-degree/

America literally went through ages like the The Red /Scare, where fear was the primary tool in demonizing any non-capitalist ideas. Legitimate viewpoints were forced the margins and supporters punished to varying degrees. It's quite safe to say the fear of socialism is embedded in our cultural makeup. Without proper education and alternative information outlets provided by today's technology, this lingering fear colors a large chunk of society's idea of "socialism." Many conservative outlets still invoke the fear rhetoric of the past. It's in decline since the younger generation has more resources available to combat the one narrative propaganda of the past, but it's still there.


Okay so literally nothing you said here constituted evidence that people are just scared of the word socialism right now. On to the next stuff:

quote:
Well, I'd say it feels like a "gotcha" because it's a good point. Unless you went exclusively to private schools, travel in private aircraft, employ a private security force, live completely off the grid somewhere, etc, socialism touches your life. It's quite deeply embedded in our current system.


It's not a good point because nobody says we don't have social programs. At least I haven't seen anyone who says that.

quote:
Sure, we can discuss how to tweak policies, and I'd welcome that. As I said before though, that isn't what happened. Everyone just said "lolsocialism" while ignoring Astner's chart, which flies in the face of that. There was no reasoned discussion. Just jokes.


His chart was ignored because places like Sweden are not socialist countries.

quote:
Then we aren't capitalist. You will be hardpressed to find a pure economy in the developed world.


Again: Sweden is not a socialist country. What you just typed out doesn't negate that. So it is flat out incorrect to try to use Sweden as an example that socialism doesn't kill innovation. If you want to say it means we aren't pure capitalist okay...we aren't lol.

quote:
The Nordic model is definitely what the world is looking to as a socialist ideal at the moment. They are consistently rated the happiest places on Earth, so they are definitely doing something right. They are showing capitalism and socialism can totally coexist just fine, which is all I and the others have been saying.


The nordic models aren't examples of socialist success stories though. That is how some try to paint it. You also didn't really back up the claims that people these days are just scared over the word socialism. The scares of the past do not mean it's going on in the present. Most I see complaining about socialism don't just complain in general, they complain about the specific policies democratic socialists wanna put forth.

The fact of the matter is it's quite silly to hold up a place with a mixed economy as some kind of "this shows socialism doesn't kill innovation". Especially when some of these nordic countries do not consider themselves socialist countries. Pure socialism *does* kill innovation, and generous social programs are not at all possible without capitalism.

Capitalism and socialism can co-exist as long as people don't go overboard. What democratic socialists like AOC want definitely goes overboard.


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Last edited by Surtur on Aug 26th, 2018 at 07:45 PM

Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 07:34 PM
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Surtur
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TLDR: Yes, pure socialism kills innovation. Capitalist countries with generous social programs(or mixed economies, whatever you wanna label it) do not kill innovation.


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 07:48 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
The trend is known, yet I found these articles interesting, anyhow. Personally, I don't think I fit the trend. I'm over 30, and I've realized that I was much more conservative in my youth, and have only grown more liberal/progressive as I've gotten older, especially on social issues.


Me too. I was fairly libertarian in my early 20's. I'm much more liberal now than I was back then.

As far as the current discussion goes, while I don't favor a full-blown socialist revolution in this nation, I would like universal health care (doesn't have to be single payer, there are other options to reach that goal), strong, well funded safety nets for those in need, and affordable high quality public colleges that don't riddle young people with absurd levels of debt. Also strong worker rights and bargaining power.


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