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Does socialism kill innovation?
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Surtur
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Which country would you guys say has the best healthcare system right now?


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 09:31 PM
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BackFire
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I can't remember. I looked into it some years ago. It was one that wasn't full single payer, though. It had a hybrid system of some sort. Like a guaranteed baseline level of care for serious illnesses, and then you could purchase additional coverage if you wanted.


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 09:34 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
The trend is known, yet I found these articles interesting, anyhow. Personally, I don't think I fit the trend. I'm over 30, and I've realized that I was much more conservative in my youth, and have only grown more liberal/progressive as I've gotten older, especially on social issues.


I'm similar to you but different. I was fiscally liberal (pay for tons of public programs and make NASA's budget 50 times larger, for example) and socially conservative when I was younger. But as I got older, I become fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I just needed to be exposed to some facts like how terrible and corrupt the drug war is. Also, a lot of me becoming more socially liberal had to do with Christian teachings. Christ's teachings resonated with me when I was in my late teens. "Perhaps I shouldn't judge others so much, forgive freely, and let others do what they want - it's up to God to judge." Something like that.

Part of it had to do with having multiple atheist friends who loved to smoke weed. The world said they were bad people. But I knew better. They were great people.

People really do change as they get older. I am "influence-able" with facts, solid studies, and great arguments.


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 10:09 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by BackFire
I can't remember. I looked into it some years ago. It was one that wasn't full single payer, though. It had a hybrid system of some sort. Like a guaranteed baseline level of care for serious illnesses, and then you could purchase additional coverage if you wanted.


Sounds like Germany's "Krankenkassen" coverage. Release the Kranken...coverage.

Edit - Just looked it up. That's not it. Germany is not a single-payer. But it's similar enough that I think this may be what you're talking about.


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 10:10 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Okay so literally nothing you said here constituted evidence that people are just scared of the word socialism right now. On to the next stuff:

Well, actually, it is evidence in support of that argument. It's not 100% proof of course, as I can't hook up everyone's brains to measure their fear response. But hey, don't call it fear if you don't want. The general revulsion fades the further we get from those time periods, indicating a connection with the smear campaign that went on.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
It's not a good point because nobody says we don't have social programs. At least I haven't seen anyone who says that.

It's a good point because you dismissed socialism entirely with jokes, while benefiting from socialist policies in your own country. That is what we're trying to highlight.

It doesn't mean you're a bad person. We're simply trying to establish a healthy discourse here.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur

His chart was ignored because places like Sweden are not socialist countries.

Again: Sweden is not a socialist country. What you just typed out doesn't negate that. So it is flat out incorrect to try to use Sweden as an example that socialism doesn't kill innovation. If you want to say it means we aren't pure capitalist okay...we aren't lol.

The nordic models aren't examples of socialist success stories though. That is how some try to paint it. You also didn't really back up the claims that people these days are just scared over the word socialism. The scares of the past do not mean it's going on in the present. Most I see complaining about socialism don't just complain in general, they complain about the specific policies democratic socialists wanna put forth.

The fact of the matter is it's quite silly to hold up a place with a mixed economy as some kind of "this shows socialism doesn't kill innovation". Especially when some of these nordic countries do not consider themselves socialist countries.

Cool man. You want a nuanced discussion of mixed economies, I'm all for it. But, again, that isn't what you were doing before. Socialism quite clearly has elements that function successfully in modern economies, just like capitalism. Now that you're not simply going "lolsocialism", we can actually talk.

When people say the "socialist" countries using the Nordic model, they refer to their successful implementation of socialist policies that naysayers claim will be the death of any economy. Are they socialist? Not purely, but they skew that way in a manner previously thought absurd by some.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Pure socialism *does* kill innovation, and generous social programs are not at all possible without capitalism.

Capitalism and socialism can co-exist as long as people don't go overboard. What democratic socialists like AOC want definitely goes overboard.

In all honesty, I'm not sure any pure economy would do well in the end. How many have we even had throughout history at all?

Well, see, this is where I think the discussion is to be had. What socialist/capitalist/whatever policies to we enact, where do we put them, and how do we implement them. "Overboard" will mean different things to different people. I think we are a far cry from evolving to a money-less system, but universal healthcare or universal basic income is doable.


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 10:24 PM
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snowdragon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Which country would you guys say has the best healthcare system right now?


What things are you looking for when you determine "best." Tell me that and I'll dive into that pool (maybe not tonight have to do dinner time with the family and play with the kid and what not.)

Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 10:31 PM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
Definitely. People aren't acknowledging it though.

Right, but that isn't what happened here. What happened here is multiple posters making caricatures of and mocking socialism, despite contrary statistics no less.

And in the real world, let's be serious here. Most naysayers are reacting to the term "socialism" alone. They aren't simply voicing concerns over a specific policy. They are legit afraid of the word.

That's why I want to do a full blown, Jean Grey mindwipe. Then, hopefully, we can just discuss this stuff without the baggage, or at least with much less of the baggage.


I was pretty tired the last time I responded to this, so let's try again:

I agree with you. About the very concept "socialism" being a boogie man no one wants to discuss.


Capitalism is great and all, but I've known plenty of hardliners who used the very words "..and those who can't, let Darwin take out the trash."

No, dude. Advocating those who fall into poverty should die...? Just no.


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2018 11:55 PM
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darthgoober
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, actually, it is evidence in support of that argument. It's not 100% proof of course, as I can't hook up everyone's brains to measure their fear response. But hey, don't call it fear if you don't want. The general revulsion fades the further we get from those time periods, indicating a connection with the smear campaign that went on.

It's a good point because you dismissed socialism entirely with jokes, while benefiting from socialist policies in your own country. That is what we're trying to highlight.

It doesn't mean you're a bad person. We're simply trying to establish a healthy discourse here.

Cool man. You want a nuanced discussion of mixed economies, I'm all for it. But, again, that isn't what you were doing before. Socialism quite clearly has elements that function successfully in modern economies, just like capitalism. Now that you're not simply going "lolsocialism", we can actually talk.

When people say the "socialist" countries using the Nordic model, they refer to their successful implementation of socialist policies that naysayers claim will be the death of any economy. Are they socialist? Not purely, but they skew that way in a manner previously thought absurd by some.

In all honesty, I'm not sure any pure economy would do well in the end. How many have we even had throughout history at all?

Well, see, this is where I think the discussion is to be had. What socialist/capitalist/whatever policies to we enact, where do we put them, and how do we implement them. "Overboard" will mean different things to different people. I think we are a far cry from evolving to a money-less system, but universal healthcare or universal basic income is doable.

Yeah but the thing is, most liberals would throw a fit if we just outright adopted the Nordic model economy. Take Denmark for example... Yeah, rich people pay more taxes, but so does everybody else. And a whole lot of people we consider to be "middle class" like successful plumbers, would also fall into the 60% tax bracket. Their corporate tax rate is higher, but not by a whole lot. Ours is 21% and theirs is 24.5%... and liberals here were shouting for us to raise it further back when it was 37%. What's more the cost of goods and services over there is also higher pretty much across the board. Housing is more expensive, and individual houses are smaller in general. Yes education is free, but you don't get to pick what school you go to the way you do over here. And their options in regards to their personal education is much more limited than it is in the US. You focus your college on a specific career path rather than getting to study whatever kind of randomness you want the way you do over here, and the government will only pay for it IF you choose a field that the Ministry of Education decides the country needs more graduates from.

Basically, the people arguing for it would be miserable if they actually got it. As for they themselves being happier about their system, that kind of thing is understandable when you consider the fact that military service is mandatory over there. If we forced all of our 18 year olds to serve in the military for a couple of years we'd likely have a happier and more homogeneous culture too since instilling a love of one's country is basically the primary goal for training/service.

From what I've seen, what most people who clamor for Nordic socialism really want is to take the good stuff and leave the stuff that would make their own life harder... but I honestly don't see that working. If we start taxing all the rich people and corporations enough to make up the difference for the parts of the Nordic system we leave behind, what will end up happening is that those rich people and corporations will move somewhere else and this whole country will go bankrupt. All we know is that the Nordic model is a successful system AS A WHOLE, there's not evidence that we could adopt the 1/3 of their system most liberals want and leave the rest behind and be anywhere near as successful as they are.


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Old Post Aug 27th, 2018 12:22 AM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
[B]Well, actually, it is evidence in support of that argument. It's not 100% proof of course, as I can't hook up everyone's brains to measure their fear response. But hey, don't call it fear if you don't want. The general revulsion fades the further we get from those time periods, indicating a connection with the smear campaign that went on.


Lol no, it's not evidence. You didn't show conclusively most people today are just afraid of the word.

quote:
It's a good point because you dismissed socialism entirely with jokes, while benefiting from socialist policies in your own country. That is what we're trying to highlight.

It doesn't mean you're a bad person. We're simply trying to establish a healthy discourse here.


It's only a good point if you believed people weren't making jokes about socialism with those comments. Which *you* clearly recognize is what was going on. Now for someone who doesn't and has to use this "gotcha" it's weak.

quote:
Cool man. You want a nuanced discussion of mixed economies, I'm all for it. But, again, that isn't what you were doing before. Socialism quite clearly has elements that function successfully in modern economies, just like capitalism. Now that you're not simply going "lolsocialism", we can actually talk.


But again: people joke about how awful socialism is. I guess the point is there was no valid gotcha here.

quote:
When people say the "socialist" countries using the Nordic model, they refer to their successful implementation of socialist policies that naysayers claim will be the death of any economy. Are they socialist? Not purely, but they skew that way in a manner previously thought absurd by some.


A socialist policy is not the same as a socialist country.


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Last edited by Surtur on Aug 27th, 2018 at 03:15 PM

Old Post Aug 27th, 2018 03:13 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Lol no, it's not evidence. You didn't show conclusively most people today are just afraid of the word.

It's only a good point if you believed people weren't making jokes about socialism with those comments. Which *you* clearly recognize is what was going on. Now for someone who doesn't and has to use this "gotcha" it's weak.

But again: people joke about how awful socialism is. I guess the point is there was no valid gotcha here.

A socialist policy is not the same as a socialist country.

Yes, it is. You're confusing information which supports a matter with information which settles a matter. I didn't prove it's a fact, so you don't have to use fear if you don't want. I did establish a valid framework for the view though.

Well, no. You can make a joke and actually believe the logic informing the joke. You didn't indicate otherwise until recently, so our reaction is perfectly understandable.

Same as above.

I never said otherwise. As I pointed out earlier, it's used as shorthand, the same way America is called "capitalist." In an in-depth discussion, most people will acknowledge we're basically talking about complicated, mixed up systems.


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Old Post Aug 27th, 2018 09:31 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah but the thing is, most liberals would throw a fit if we just outright adopted the Nordic model economy. Take Denmark for example... Yeah, rich people pay more taxes, but so does everybody else. And a whole lot of people we consider to be "middle class" like successful plumbers, would also fall into the 60% tax bracket. Their corporate tax rate is higher, but not by a whole lot. Ours is 21% and theirs is 24.5%... and liberals here were shouting for us to raise it further back when it was 37%. What's more the cost of goods and services over there is also higher pretty much across the board. Housing is more expensive, and individual houses are smaller in general. Yes education is free, but you don't get to pick what school you go to the way you do over here. And their options in regards to their personal education is much more limited than it is in the US. You focus your college on a specific career path rather than getting to study whatever kind of randomness you want the way you do over here, and the government will only pay for it IF you choose a field that the Ministry of Education decides the country needs more graduates from.

Basically, the people arguing for it would be miserable if they actually got it. As for they themselves being happier about their system, that kind of thing is understandable when you consider the fact that military service is mandatory over there. If we forced all of our 18 year olds to serve in the military for a couple of years we'd likely have a happier and more homogeneous culture too since instilling a love of one's country is basically the primary goal for training/service.

From what I've seen, what most people who clamor for Nordic socialism really want is to take the good stuff and leave the stuff that would make their own life harder... but I honestly don't see that working. If we start taxing all the rich people and corporations enough to make up the difference for the parts of the Nordic system we leave behind, what will end up happening is that those rich people and corporations will move somewhere else and this whole country will go bankrupt. All we know is that the Nordic model is a successful system AS A WHOLE, there's not evidence that we could adopt the 1/3 of their system most liberals want and leave the rest behind and be anywhere near as successful as they are.

All I can really say to this is "maybe, maybe not." Maybe people will be happier with it. Maybe not. Evidence says they will be.

And the "mandatory" military service is mandatory in name and not practice when you get right down to it. Most people serve like 4 months, not several years, if I understand correctly. Additionally, they only fulfill 5000 spots(and only if they actually need them), so the rest of the populace is totally safe. And there's ways of getting out of it, including just conscientious objection.

https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/1...et-i-militaeret
In 2014, only 19 individuals were actually forced to serve. 99.1% of their military is voluntary. I'm depending on translations for that, but it sounds similar to our Selective Service tbh. I got my card like everyone else, but the military never came knocking for me. You'd need to be in a serious wartime situation for that it seems.

Regardless, that style of military dates back to the Viking Ages for many Scandinavian countries. They did that stuff long before socialism or capitalism, and there is no reason to think you need mandatory military service to make those economic practices work.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
I was pretty tired the last time I responded to this, so let's try again:

I agree with you. About the very concept "socialism" being a boogie man no one wants to discuss.

Capitalism is great and all, but I've known plenty of hardliners who used the very words "..and those who can't, let Darwin take out the trash."

No, dude. Advocating those who fall into poverty should die...? Just no.

thumb up

This is me theorizing, but I feel like empowering as many people as possible can only benefit society.


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Old Post Aug 27th, 2018 09:47 PM
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BackFire
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Sounds like Germany's "Krankenkassen" coverage. Release the Kranken...coverage.

Edit - Just looked it up. That's not it. Germany is not a single-payer. But it's similar enough that I think this may be what you're talking about.


I can't remember for the life of me, I'm pretty sure it wasn't Germany, though. Maybe France? Or maybe I'm just full of shit, I don't remember.


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Putinbot1
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The new KSA healthcare system based on the French model is going to be solid!


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darthgoober
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
All I can really say to this is "maybe, maybe not." Maybe people will be happier with it. Maybe not. Evidence says they will be.

And the "mandatory" military service is mandatory in name and not practice when you get right down to it. Most people serve like 4 months, not several years, if I understand correctly. Additionally, they only fulfill 5000 spots(and only if they actually need them), so the rest of the populace is totally safe. And there's ways of getting out of it, including just conscientious objection.

https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/1...et-i-militaeret
In 2014, only 19 individuals were actually forced to serve. 99.1% of their military is voluntary. I'm depending on translations for that, but it sounds similar to our Selective Service tbh. I got my card like everyone else, but the military never came knocking for me. You'd need to be in a serious wartime situation for that it seems.

Regardless, that style of military dates back to the Viking Ages for many Scandinavian countries. They did that stuff long before socialism or capitalism, and there is no reason to think you need mandatory military service to make those economic practices work.

thumb up

This is me theorizing, but I feel like empowering as many people as possible can only benefit society.

Not really. There's zero evidence that all the people who want the corporate tax raised to over 37% will be happy about it settling at 24%. There's zero proof that successful members of the middle class will enjoy a 60% income tax rate. There's no proof that ANYONE would enjoy sales taxes being raised from 7% to 25%... let alone the whooping 180% sales tax Denmark has for automobile purchases. People already b*tch to high heaven too much now about how much housing costs in the US now to believe they'll be ok with the the price going up even further. There are too many students who are dyng to move across the country for college to get away from their parents while they study stuff like gender studies to believe that they'd enjoy having to stay close to home and drop that stuff and focus their studies on whatever fields the government dictates we need more graduates from. Denmark is small and for the most part culturally homogeneous, the US is big as shit and culturally diverse.

No it's mandatory. Don't get me wrong because I don't (now)mean that every single person serves(I originally thought that was the case because I misread the thing and I now admit to being mistaken about that), but on the Day of Defense(which I couldn't get specific details on but from the sound of it happens every year) every male over the age of 18 is drafted for introduction to the military and health test. Those who are healthy have to participate in the draw for conscription even if they don't want to serve. If there's not enough volunteers for service, depending on what number they draw, people who are against the whole thing have to serve anyway, even in peacetime. Them only needing to force 19 people into service in 2014 was due to a massive increase in the number of volunteers, when there are fewer volunteers more people are forced to serve.

And I never meant to say that the mandatory military service was required for their economic system to work, I said that it likely contributes to why their culture is happier than ours. When you've been taking 18 year olds who might otherwise be on the way to opposing your way of life and spend time brainwashing them(the way pretty much every military does) for over 300 years, it will likely to add up and make a big difference overall.


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Old Post Aug 27th, 2018 10:40 PM
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cdtm
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So what is the US system again?

Part capitalism, part socialism sounds good, except I'm not all that sure what we have is capitalism. I mean, the big bailouts sure don't look like open competition. "Too big to fail?"

And what about the cable industry? Is that what open competition looks like?

How about that time Apple and other tech giants promised not to poach their top
talent? What is that, if not collusion to keep wages low?


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Old Post Aug 28th, 2018 12:10 AM
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BackFire
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
So what is the US system again?

Part capitalism, part socialism sounds good, except I'm not all that sure what we have is capitalism. I mean, the big bailouts sure don't look like open competition. "Too big to fail?"

And what about the cable industry? Is that what open competition looks like?

How about that time Apple and other tech giants promised not to poach their top
talent? What is that, if not collusion to keep wages low?


We have some socialism for the very poor (though not enough, imo)

Capitalism for the lower middle class, middle class and upper middle class.

Socialism for the super rich. Hence the bailouts and things like that you mentioned.


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Old Post Aug 28th, 2018 01:10 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by darthgoober
Not really. There's zero evidence that all the people who want the corporate tax raised to over 37% will be happy about it settling at 24%. There's zero proof that successful members of the middle class will enjoy a 60% income tax rate. There's no proof that ANYONE would enjoy sales taxes being raised from 7% to 25%... let alone the whooping 180% sales tax Denmark has for automobile purchases. People already b*tch to high heaven too much now about how much housing costs in the US now to believe they'll be ok with the the price going up even further. There are too many students who are dyng to move across the country for college to get away from their parents while they study stuff like gender studies to believe that they'd enjoy having to stay close to home and drop that stuff and focus their studies on whatever fields the government dictates we need more graduates from. Denmark is small and for the most part culturally homogeneous, the US is big as shit and culturally diverse.

No it's mandatory. Don't get me wrong because I don't (now)mean that every single person serves(I originally thought that was the case because I misread the thing and I now admit to being mistaken about that), but on the Day of Defense(which I couldn't get specific details on but from the sound of it happens every year) every male over the age of 18 is drafted for introduction to the military and health test. Those who are healthy have to participate in the draw for conscription even if they don't want to serve. If there's not enough volunteers for service, depending on what number they draw, people who are against the whole thing have to serve anyway, even in peacetime. Them only needing to force 19 people into service in 2014 was due to a massive increase in the number of volunteers, when there are fewer volunteers more people are forced to serve.

The evidence is that the people under that system are pretty happy. This "they are homogenous, so that's why" reasoning is in-group bias tbh. Maybe it's not what you meant, but I usually notice people are referring to race when they say this. They don't all share the same viewpoint on everything just because they are mostly white. It also ignores the fact that American culture is a bit more uniform than people acknowledge. Asian/black/white American kids of similar economic backgrounds will likely have more in common with each other than they would with some rando from their "ancestral homeland." But, cool, we'll set Denmark aside for a moment. What about Norway, which has a sizable and still growing immigrant population? They've repeatedly rated happiest nation on Earth in spite of that.

Right, but in practice it's mandatory in name only. Only 4200 of those will actually even be considered, and most of those still won't get selected. They've been curtailing this practice in general, as 2 out 3 Danes want to abolish it.
https://www.b.dk/politiko/forsvarsm...gt-skal-bevares

And there's still the option to take alternatives to conscription for those who are called. These places don't have many enemies, so keeping a military task force is a huge concern.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by darthgoober
And I never meant to say that the mandatory military service was required for their economic system to work, I said that it likely contributes to why their culture is happier than ours. When you've been taking 18 year olds who might otherwise be on the way to opposing your way of life and spend time brainwashing them(the way pretty much every military does) for over 300 years, it will likely to add up and make a big difference overall.

Fair enough, and I didn't mean to oversimplify your statement if it came off that way.

I guess I just don't see why it would make them happier. Most Danes want to abolish the practice, so it seems like they are happy in spite of it rather than because of it.

I think we've got this idea of American exceptionlism slammed into our heads from childhood, and it makes us think we're some ultra unique beast that could never benefit from the practices of other countries. Sure, there are some weird Americanisms around, but "we have more brown people" isn't really a defense against universal healthcare advocacy.


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Old Post Aug 28th, 2018 02:52 AM
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snowdragon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime


I think we've got this idea of American exceptionlism slammed into our heads from childhood, and it makes us think we're some ultra unique beast that could never benefit from the practices of other countries. Sure, there are some weird Americanisms around, but "we have more brown people" isn't really a defense against universal healthcare advocacy.


This is the opposite of what most gen x'rs are taught. We were taught the melting pot which means we absorb other cultures and make them our own. We don't look to identify with individual cultures within.

I believe we were taught america opens doors of opportunity for everyone that comes to our country. That does create some exceptionlism I suspect.

Old Post Aug 28th, 2018 04:35 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime

These places don't have many enemies, so keeping a military task force is a huge concern.

That is supposed to say isn't a huge concern.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by snowdragon
This is the opposite of what most gen x'rs are taught. We were taught the melting pot which means we absorb other cultures and make them our own. We don't look to identify with individual cultures within.

I believe we were taught america opens doors of opportunity for everyone that comes to our country. That does create some exceptionlism I suspect.

That is true in my experience as well, but it doesn't seem to apply to economics and systems of government. The melting pot idea seems to stop at racial/religious tolerance. When it comes to the way we actually run the country, I always detect an air of "diversity is all well and good, but don't you dare alter our system you commie bastard" from the masses. Not to say it doesn't get altered and borrow from other places, but people don't want it pointed out.

Just feels like we can't admit we may have gotten something wrong sometimes.


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Last edited by StyleTime on Aug 28th, 2018 at 07:30 AM

Old Post Aug 28th, 2018 07:28 AM
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