I’ll only be addressing some of your points here, Lazy, for reasons I’ll state at the end of this rebuttal.
...I don’t know where you’re getting it that they were in “severe agony” when they literally get up and talk after the fact for half a minute without the slightest sign of difficulty or exhaustion, lol.
But still, the fact that he makes a show of leaping down from his throne - by which point any Force user worth their salt would’ve activated every defense they possessed - and then completely obliterates said defenses is a strong indicator that he did, indeed, overpower them.
It was changed to make the fight easier, and therefore exists more within the realm of game mechanics than it does within the realm of continuity. It still displays the indicator when Malgus is low enough to be pushed off, too, and I daresay they would’ve removed that had it been a lore-related retcon.
I agree on there being a mindset difference - if Revan was at full power, the strike team would’ve faced the raid boss we saw in SoR instead of a mid-level dungeon boss.
But this begs the question: if it wasn’t relevant to the battle, why was it displayed? Are we to assume that the fight somehow triggered a boost to Revan’s overall power (the type which his mental state prevents him from using), and the game drew this to our attention even though it holds no relevance to the fight at hand? I’d argue it’s plenty relevant to the battle.
And yet he was still able to do better against the four of them (who were already collectively demonstrably superior to Revan) after they experienced a considerable power boost? I’m sorry, but I don’t see the logic here.
Honestly, even if everything you’ve said here is true, my scaling still works. Let’s compare here for a second:
Malgus fought a much more powerful version of the strike team than Revan did.
The strike team had fought through an “army” of droids before facing Revan, as well, so it follows that they were similarly exhausted. If not, the power growth between the fights will make up for whatever small discrepancy exists between their exhaustion levels in each instance.
Both Malgus and Revan had ample time to prepare for the conflict, which they knew was coming. In fact, the strike team literally walks in on Revan preparing for the fight, so we know he definitely had prep there.
Malgus was “desperate” by the time he was defeated, unlike Revan, who was mortally wounded. This desperation can also be attributed to the immediate self-destruction of the battle station instead of him being outmatched. Additionally, the strike team had to cheapshot Malgus to defeat him, unlike Revan, who was plainly outmatched. But even if this is all bogus, the mere fact that he contended with them is enough.
The scaling still holds. Even if the domination stuff was thoroughly and utterly false, Malgus still performed better against a more powerful version of the strike team than Revan did, therefore putting him demonstrably above Foundry Revan - and thus vastly above Traya.
Right, there are a few problems with this. For one, we can simply interpret “senior” the way Google defines it - that is, “holding a high and authoritative position”, or “holding a higher position than” someone else. Therefore, it’s not illogical to assume that her seniority simply refers to her rank. Being the leader of the Triumvirate, she would of course be the most senior of the three.
The second quote you posted simply means that Traya was more powerful than Nihilus when she took him under her wing, which really shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.
On the topic of power, however, the fact that Sion and Nihilus “united” to depose her doesn’t mean it was out of necessity. In fact, the cutscene quite clearly shows Nihilus doing the heavy lifting - Sion’s only intervention was to pummel the hell out of her while she was already rendered winded and powerless by Nihilus’ attack.
I mean, the campaign guide makes it quite clear that Nihilus was the one draining her, lol:
As well, none of the quotes you posted support your hypothesis of them draining her together.
Sion attacking Traya while she’s down fits under the criteria of “helping” in her deposition.
Them “conspiring” to strip her of her powers only means they planned it beforehand, not that Sion necessarily helped drain her.
Of all the quotes presented, this is probably the only one that helps your case. Sadly, it’s overridden by the quote I posted above, and the actual cutscene itself (which clearly shows Nihilus doing all the draining). And even if Sion did help him, that still doesn’t mean it was out of necessity.
And as for Sion’s quote, there’s really nothing stating that Nihilus meant to kill her with that attack. Indeed, the fact that he walks over to Traya almost immediately after she hits the wall - before she shows any sign of life - is a clear indicator of her survival of the attack being planned. That said, I don’t know, he might’ve simply broken her neck after Sion was done and she survived unbeknownst to him. Either way, Nihilus’ initial attack clearly wasn’t meant to kill her, so it can’t be used as a metric to compare their power.
She still drops to her knees in pain when Sion cuts it off - and she won’t have the time to recover like she did while in the middle of a fight with Malgus.
eh, I’d argue that Kreia siphoned her Force Bond with the Exile to heal herself instead of using conventional drain.
She says this immediately after getting up, as well, so it’s clear that the connection they had played a significant role in her swift recovery. So I wouldn’t attribute it to drain, at least not in the sense that Kreia can use it to this effect against anyone she comes across.
Also, if she could simply face-tank lightsaber blades and immediately Drain whoever she’s up against to revitalize to the point of combat effectiveness, I’d have expected her to do so against Surik during their duel on the Core. She was evidently in better shape than she was on Dantooine; unlike Dantooine, however, she had a colossal dark side nexus to aid her. Yet she was still incapable of replicating it.
This quite evidently isn’t conventional Drain, and thus cannot be used to that level of effectiveness against Malgus.
Again, these healing abilities would’ve been plenty useful against the Exile during their duel on the Trayus core. She even gets a prolonged period to use them when, quite clearly wounded to the point of physical ineffectiveness, she sets her three lightsabers on the Exile. But even after the prolonged period it took for the Exile to destroy them, she’s still quite unable to fight back - whether with the Force or a lightsaber. If she couldn’t reliably use them there, I have serious doubts about her ability to use them against Malgus.
Right, but to what extent? Certainly not to one where she would win, I imagine, given that she had plenty of time to drain the hell out of the Exile during their fight, and yet she still managed to lose - on a nexus, of all places. If these powers can’t give Traya the win on a nexus, which would’ve amplified their effect and weakened her opponent, they’re not giving her the win against an opponent far more powerful than Surik on neutral ground.
This same quote says that it’s also literally held together by “fury” and an “obsession with revenge” (against who, lol?), so I’d take it with a massive pinch of salt unless you can find another source to corroborate it. As well, “held together by machines” could simply be referring to his respirator given that his body needs oxygen to function, and therefore the respirator, which assists in his breathing, would hold his body together.
You did raise a fair point about the respirator, though. But if we’re going to use game abilities here, it’s only fair to point out that the Wrath also knew how to disable droids (and, going by your logic here, general machinery) in much the same way that Traya did.
And the Wrath knowing how to incapacitate machinery was evidently ineffective against Malgus, so it’s safe to assume that Traya knowing how to incapacitate machinery will be as well.
I’d first like to outline what I feel should be obvious here: Malgus’ superior lightsaber skill, and telekinetic ability.
In terms of lightsaber skill, Malgus holds the clear edge. Overcoming two Jedi Battlemasters in lightsaber combat well before the events of the Ilum arc is an insane feat, and it professes an amount of lightsaber skill I’m not sure Traya can match based on what few feats she has. Her chances become even more grim once you consider that she’s missing a hand, which leaves her fatally vulnerable to Malgus’ superior strength in a close-quarters lightsaber duel. She’s going up against an opponent with the type of physical strength to make Aryn Leneer’s arms “quiver” with a single lightsaber exchange:
And eventually drive her to her knees under the force of his blows:
I simply can’t see Traya dealing with that kind of strength with only a single hand if Leneer barely could with two, and it doesn’t get much better with Malgus being able to loose kicks or punches on her as well; the power of which have broken ribs and caused Leneer to “see double”. With both a skill and strength advantage in terms of displayed feats, I don’t see much of a future for Traya if Malgus gets up close.
Her situation darkens even further when you consider Malgus’ staggering telekinetic advantage. Along with the aforementioned feats of blasting through the strike team’s Force defenses (which, in my opinion, is better than what Traya did with the three Masters given the team’s greater telekinetic abilities), Malgus has:
held back a dropship (the Razor) while its thrusters were going at full blast:
In terms of quality, I’d honestly say that it’s a better feat than anything Traya’s shown in the TK department bar maybe her domination of the masters (which might’ve been with prep) simply because of the sheer force Malgus has to deal with. It’s a beautiful feat, and it helps that it was also pre-prime by about a decade, so you can bet that Malgus will be able to dish out more powerful TK than this during the fight.
uses a Force Wave-type attack to blast tons of rubble away from him while having difficulty breathing:
This quote is important for two reasons: one, it is again a very impressive display of telekinesis, and two, it’s proof that Malgus can exercise his Force powers while his breathing is hindered - so even if Traya manages to disrupt his respirator, he can still dish out this type of power on demand. He was also gravely wounded when this occurred and still managed to defeat two Jedi afterwards even with the breathing problems. Give him a decade of growth afterward, and I honestly doubt if Traya disabling his respirator will affect the fight as much as you say.
I suspect that such telekinetic power would be exceptionally useful in fending off Traya’s lightsabers, given that she’ll probably sicc them on Malgus once she realizes she can’t fight him for shit in a close-quarters duel - if the battle isn’t over by then. The KotOR II Prima Guide notes that her lightsabers are “vulnerable” to telekinetic attacks such as Force Wave (link) (see the rubble example); and that employing such against them would be “extremely effective”, so they shouldn’t give Malgus any trouble.
At this point, the only way Traya can feasibly win this is through Drain, which, honestly, I don’t see making much of a difference in the grand scheme of things due to Malgus’ far greater power. 20 meters isn’t that far for a Force user like Malgus to cross at a charge, and once he gets in close, his telekinesis will nullify Traya’s tri-saber shenanigans and his superior skill and physical strength will secure him the win fairly quickly.
But what if Traya is more powerful than Malgus? Wouldn’t that shift the tide of the battle in her favor?
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---TCSWE
The quote is self-explanatory. Although Traya was more powerful than the Exile during the Trayus core, she ultimately lost due to the Exile being a more skilled opponent. Now, Traya had two advantages which, in my opinion, led to her being “more powerful” than the Exile on Malachor:
Traya was amped, massively
The Exile was weakened to the same degree
It gets better, too. Surik describes simply walking on Malachor’s surface as “agony”; being assailed mentally by the anguish of those who died there, and being crushed by gravity so great that even one such as her is left “gasping for breath”:
I get that the gravity part also applies to Traya, but unlike Surik, she had a colossal dark side nexus to counteract whatever physical tortures the planet might have loosed upon her. But what’s really important here is Surik’s mental state. Like we see with Revan, a Force user’s mental state is critical to their ability to channel and direct their available power. Surik’s mind was assaulted to the point of “agony” while she was simultaneously being “drowned” in the dark side, so it’s safe to say that she wasn’t performing anywhere near her best Force-wise. Add to this that she had to fight an entire “legion” of Sith beforehand, and it’s small wonder that she was less powerful than Traya by that point. On even ground, though, I’d say Surik would be substantially more powerful.
Of course, I’d imagine she didn’t have much of a hope of defeating Traya using the Force alone. So Surik, being crushed by a gravity field which left her “gasping for breath”, manages to defeat her in a close-quarters duel instead of a long-range Force battle. All the while being assailed with the type of Drain you posit will widen the power gap even further between Traya and Surik, or in this case, Traya and Malgus.
From this, I think it’s safe to say that close-quarters combat - you know, the type that Malgus will always engage in, given the chance - is a weakness of Traya’s, so much so that even a substantial power gap between her and her opponent won’t guarantee her the victory if her opponent is the superior combatant. And Malgus - with his superior strength, skill, and TK - is quite evidently the superior combatant.
So even if you prove Traya is more powerful than Malgus, you’ll also have to prove she’s the better combatant, because otherwise, this’ll turn into a Vitiate-HoT situation, except shorter and more embarrassing for Traya.
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
Indeed, though I feel a lack of concrete Traya knowledge has left it open to easy rebuttal in places. The argument about her not being able to shrug off the loss of a limb like a hand for example.... Malachor?
__________________ "i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel. at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that" - Inturpid.
Aug 14th, 2018 06:29 PM
