I think that’s the issue with debating comics/anime/similar characters. Their depictions are too often subjective, and with enough research one can always find a scene from the past proving a point (or if none exists, just give it time and some writer in the future will either nerf a character to nothing, or break the character and make it unstoppable).
On the thread - I’ve seen Kal be defeated by Batman, by Cheetah, Aquaman knocked him across the room, Poison Ivy made him her love slave, etc etc.
In the same manner that I’ve seen the Hulk get bothered by Wolverine, and even get jobbed by a certain Steve Rogers with his quaint shield. In comics all is possible - even the mighty Thanos getting handcuffed ...
Which is why I usually rely on what KMC once was - non jobbing, no holds barred (this time autocorrect didn’t mess up the spelling), no PIS and no CIS; with the characters starting off from a short distance away, and with the characters having basic knowledge of each other.
With such stipulations - in the same way I know the entire police forces (with all the handcuffs ever made) couldn’t stand a chance against a no-holds barred Thanos, or Captain America with all the shields that were ever imagined would be a smeary paste on the ground against a no-holds barred Hulk, in the same way I do not think Giganta and Cheetah have a chance against a no-holds barred Superman.
Or put it another way - a mental crutch I normally use is to ask myself who I would rather be. Would I rather my twin and I control Cheetah and Giganta, and face off against a no-holds barred Superman ...or would I rather be Superman facing off against a no-holds barred Giganta and Cheetah ...?
The choice is as easy as asking me if I’d rather be Steve versus a maddened Hulk, or the Hulk versus a maddened Steve ...
“not worth my time” you’re a nobody who lies and cries his way out of every situation with excuse after excuse about you never been in the wrong. I don’t know if you’ve noticed but you’re nothing more than a bad parody of what you once was.
Let's look at ALL of Superman's showings. ALL. And let's get an average.
Assume he has 10,000 comic book showings. Sure, he has a few showings of him out racing light (let's give that a score of 100). He then has a few showings of low speed showings (let's give those a score of 1).
Overall, over all 10,000 showings of Superman, where do you think his AVERAGE is?
Now, let's look at Cheetah. Over all.....four? Three? Showings of here, she has one of Steve tagging her.
Of COURSE Superman has low shitty showings. Of course. He's in every JL comic, Action Comics, Superman/Batman, guest stars in Red Hood and the Outlaws etc etc. Out of all of them, he has a few low showings. NOBODY IS DENYING THIS.
Cheetah has like a handful of showings, and some of them are shit. Her average is way lower than Superman's, even when HIS shit showings are taken into account, because he has way more showings, lol. How can you not grasp this simple concept that your entire logic is based on?
So since Superman beat that Zod in a fair fight (actually still unfair
for Superman given the context), and Zod beat multiple Imperiex Probes and one Probe tanked Wonder Woman with an axe(potentially with the Gauntlet of Ares) and Aquaman's simultaneous punch, what does that say about how much Supeman>Wonder Woman? Hell, her in armor nearly got killed by that detonation, and Superman tanked that shit.
I know you'll freak out and fall back on Zod breaking his jaw, but even if we pretend that's his only showing against Superman, getting your jaw broken by a flying blitz strike is certainly a better showing for Superman than Wonder Woman getting her wrist broken by Superman squeezing it(over her bracelet IIRC) is for Diana, so let's try not to go there. I want what your opinion is on how much Superman beating Zod, Zod beating 3 Probes and Wonder Woman doing so poorly against those Probes, puts Superman above her.
And if you're going to try to fall to other examples to divert attention from your inability to give an answer that doesn't bend yourself over, this isn't the only instance that puts him way above her I can cite.
But hey, a half powered Superman still was too fast for a heat vision dodging Batman, in the very same comic Batman dodged that heat vision, so I'd guess that's a bit better than whatever this Cheetah losing to Steve is.
__________________ Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
Great post. I would look at it like that IF they did have fights ending with the same results. People like Wonder Woman and Cheetah just seem too fast for him to hit and when you factor in the huge magic advantage she have with her bite, she wins.
I need you to focus. You're switching from combat showings, to flight. Superman combat showings is no where close to his flight speed. If it was, people like Grundy, Kalibak, Despero, Darkseid, Orion (do I honestly need to keep going?) Would not tag him. His AVERAGE combat speed isnt impressive Dark. It just isnt and this applies to all DC and Marvel flying bricks. He isnt winking out in his fights punching people at high speeds. Hell, even when he fights other kryptonians their fights are viewable by human eyes. And again, this is on average. Now back to what I was saying , when Cheetah and Superman FOUGHT, she blitzed him along with the league and transformed him. Now you can ignore on panel showings but as you already know, it will get used against you in the future. You've been doing this for yrs now. Debating powerset. You honestly need to give this up because there are people that just does not agree with this concept of debating.
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On ignore list: Darksaint and Stilt
Last edited by carver9 on Aug 8th, 2018 at 12:58 PM
^^^Thats what i meant about it being interesting watching DS debate certain characters, because he often uses methods he himself refutes in other debates.
He’s smooth, though
Outside the issues with these, I love how you completely ignore what I asked.
My guess is he's using Carter's own tactics against him. Carter always switches his stance/argument/methodology/ect, except he's just truly that terrible.
__________________ Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
Steve Trevor blitzed Cheetah. On panel. I am not ignoring this at all.
NOW CAN YOU FINALLY SEE WHAT MY PROBLEM IS WITH YOUR STYLE OF DEBATING?
@Riv: thanks, but you're not seeing what I'm doing here, which is using Carver's debating tactics.
He says we use combat feats. And only combat feats. My issue with that is, a lot of the time, the writers don't care about power levels, and will simply write a cool fight scene (I usually use Batman as an example, but here I use Steve Trevor as it directly uses Cheetah). We can also use Catwoman vs Flash, if needed.
So, if we only use combat feats, then Steve > Cheetah. If we then apply Carver's logic of 'averaging', then considering Cheetah only has like two or three appearances (others can correct me), her average is waaaaaay lower than her single high feat of blitzing Superman.
That's what I'm trying to portray.
Edit: does Superman have superspeed? Yes. Does he break it out in every comic fight? No. But this is a forum fight.
Rules:
So here, he knows he's fighting Cheetah. Someone who he knows can affect him. Yeah, sure, he'll take it slow, guys.
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Last edited by DarkSaint85 on Aug 8th, 2018 at 01:33 PM
Objectively, we already have DC saying who is faster:
(please log in to view the image)
This isn't flying, but with running. I.e. limbs moving.
So he has been tagged by Cheetah, someone slower than him.
Either it's A: PIS, where the writer wanted to show a cool fight with a werecheetahSuperman, or it's B: CIP, where Superman was holding back due to it being an unfamiliar threat.
CIS is always in play of course, but Superman isn't THAT stupid to go 'oh gee, better take it easy on Cheetah!'
I mean, if you or I were bitten by a rabid dog once and we could have done something about it, would we get bitten twice? I'm sure there's a saying about that....
Wasn't this New 52 Superman, so half of current? I'm sure Carter's response will have some change in stance, assuming he doesn't ignore it like Superman>Zod>>>Imperiex Probes>>>>Wonder Woman.
__________________ Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
They're the same dude. That's why in Flash: Rebirth, Wally says they used Black Flash to as a weapon against Darkseid [but he was wearing the skis then]: (please log in to view the image)
In fact, in Final Crisis, Wally [under Grant Morrison, who created Black Flash himself] explicitly says that he outran Black Racer (who he knew as Black Flash): http://www.4thletter.net/wp-content.../06/flash06.jpg
It's different names for the same character. Which is why he is on the 'running' list.
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“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
Last edited by Philosophía on Aug 8th, 2018 at 06:50 PM
I vaguely remember that and probably dismissed it. I think because it seemed such an incomplete explanation. And now looking at it again it's still a bit off. Maybe Morrison was purposely conflating death and its aspects??
Also I'm not sure whether to count Barry racing with the Black Racer entity during DS War as Black Racer running on foot. Was that an internal struggle or was that an actual physical foot race? If it was an actual race then Black Racer for sure has the goods.
KMC Community Forums
Aug 6th, 2018 03:11 PM
you’re a nobody who lies and cries his way out of every situation with excuse after excuse about you never been in the wrong. I don’t know if you’ve noticed but you’re nothing more than a bad parody of what you once was.
Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
