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Is gender a social construct?
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well sure but in that case it is socially negotiated, there's defined parameters and markers around it.

For a binary transgender person the markers are obvious (male and female gender roles, clothes, appearance, etc.), for someone completely inventing a new category around which there are no deeply culturally ingrained markers or clear conceptualization within society, then that's not socially negotiated as much as you saying "I'm this thing and you have to refer to me as that."


Exactly.

"Meaning is use" as applies to linguistics, refers to old words developing new meanings through common usage, or new words coming into being.

An individual who uses words in a different way, or who makes up his own words, is just being odd. He won't single handedly redefine the dictionary.

This gender thing is like that. They're arguing individuals get to define whatever they want, and everyone needs to affirm that.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 01:31 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
Not ostracized, sure. I'd argue we're at that point already.

Growing up, I remember kids being pretty accepting of gender differences. Sure, there were various "rejects", but gender/sex had nothing to do with it.

It was more about behavior, e.g. socially mal-adjusted, anti-social, or plain weirdness for the sake of attention...

Our President, the ever benevolent Donald Trump, wants to ban transgender people from the military.

Trans people are still bullied, with schools literally cancelling classes because of worries of violence towards a preteen trans kid, incited by parents no less. ....correction, they only cancelled classes over worries of a protest by trans activists. Not because a kid might get her ass kicked for using a damn bathroom once. She normally has to use the staff bathroom.

There's plenty of recent recorded violence against transgendered individuals too.

The fact that transgenderism is even a political topic at all highlights the world's problem with it. You think the average Joe would be cool and tolerant when his son wants to become his daughter?

You may live in a progressive area, and I commend you for your tolerance, but we can't pretend we're in some flowery world where people can always just express their gender identity freely.


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Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 10th, 2018 at 02:01 PM

Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 01:49 PM
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cdtm
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Isn't the military thing more about paying for procedures?

That I can see. I don't have a problem with someone's lifestyle decision, but that doesn't mean I'll support society paying for it.

Not when I can't even get it to pay for help for my decrepit grandfather, who can't even pull on his own pants or feed himself, which I consider far more important then someone's elective hormone replacement therapy/surgery.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 02:09 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Here's the thing though, if it's not just a person making their own choice, it's a person placing an expectation on other people how they must conceptualize and refer to them, and in the case of "non-binary people" creating this new category in our society and expecting everyone to accept it or else they're a bigoted *******.

If it's so arbitrary that it's basically meaningless (which for the record I'm not saying it is, but it's certainly the message non-binary gender blender upside down triangles who change their gender every week give off), why not refer to people as male or female based on their biology and let them have the personal freedom to express themselves or dress or get cosmetic surgery in whatever way they see fit?

And that's the thing, social constructs are still socially negotiated. What is considered polite in our society is a social construct and socially negotiated, you can't be a prick to everyone and say "I identify as a polite person and therefore you must refer to me as that" and expect to get away with it.

Simple answer, rather than shaming having positive male and female role models, in real life, in our stories, etc. Something inspirational.

Well, not quite. It's someone choosing their identity and informing you what the label is. Asking us to use that label is different from placing constraints on personal expression. The idea is that non-binary has always existed, but we never acknowledged it due to ignorance or bias.

In an ideal world, this may actually be a valid approach. Unfortunately, the cat is out of the bag so to speak. The constructs around male and female are here, and until society evolves into something else, those terms point to commonly understood modes of expression.

I see socially negotiated and socially constructed as mostly redudant. It doesn't change anything. A rude person doesn't actually participate in any of the modes of polite identity. A transgender person does participate in the the modes of their gender.

I see that as simply encouraging positive traits, which are mostly identical among genders. You don't want to raise honest women but dishonest men. Or kind men but selfish women. A positive model of behavior is probably good, but gendering it isn't necessary. People will still be free, possibly more so, to explore their own individual identities outside of that.

Edit: I think what you're talking about is actually the "I'm not on the spectrum at all" folks. The whole point of adopting the spectrum view of things was to be all-inclusive. The folks thinking they aren't on it at all are misguided. Non-binary makes sense at least, as we can exhibit both masculine and feminine traits at once.

But to claim to be outside of the spectrum entirely....lol. Some folks want to be unicorns I guess.


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Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 10th, 2018 at 02:47 PM

Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 02:38 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
Isn't the military thing more about paying for procedures?

That I can see. I don't have a problem with someone's lifestyle decision, but that doesn't mean I'll support society paying for it.

Not when I can't even get it to pay for help for my decrepit grandfather, who can't even pull on his own pants or feed himself, which I consider far more important then someone's elective hormone replacement therapy/surgery.

Slightly different topic, so I won't derail too much.

I must say that your tax dollars probably already go to stuff you disagree with, and possibly in far higher amounts.

I certainly don't agree with many of our military "conflicts" , but my money still gets funneled there without my consent.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 02:50 PM
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DarthSkywalker0
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I don't think anyone even read the study in question.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Putinbot1
Which is the accepted definition in all dictionaries I've ever seen... It's a retarded thread where someone doesn't understand the meaning of a word and wants others to discuss the meaning as they want the meaning to be.


You are so full of shit; I can see it peaking through my computer screen. Did you even look?

Merriam Webster: a subclass within a grammatical class (such as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (such as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms

Cambridge: the male or female sex, or the state of being either male or female

Some dictionaries like Collins note that some consider gender to be biological and other cultural so they provide two definitions.

Some of these definitions like Webster are a little vague, but the point is, there is no accepted dictionary definition. And even if there were, that would not invalidate my point; they argue that the social traits are not correlated with your biological sex. The meta-analysis I posted begs to differ. Try again next time.


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Last edited by DarthSkywalker0 on Sep 10th, 2018 at 03:32 PM

Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 03:18 PM
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Putinbot1
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Yeah Oxford is the only dictionary of the English Language that matters.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 04:04 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
I don't think anyone even read the study in question.

I did. This finds the opposite of your claim. Kids didn't really care which toys they play with until a certain age, when gender socialization starts to take hold. That age is actually right where your study begins. We are fed social cues from a far earlier age than most realize.
https://link.springer.com/article/1...1199-017-0858-4

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0

Merriam Webster: a subclass within a grammatical class (such as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (such as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms

Cambridge: the male or female sex, or the state of being either male or female

Some dictionaries like Collins note that some consider gender to be biological and other cultural so they provide two definitions.

Some of these definitions like Webster are a little vague, but the point is, there is no accepted dictionary definition. And even if there were, that would not invalidate my point; they argue that the social traits are not correlated with your biological sex. The meta-analysis I posted begs to differ. Try again next time.

None of those conflict with gender being socially constructed though.


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Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 10th, 2018 at 04:27 PM

Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 04:21 PM
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DarthSkywalker0
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quote:


I did. This finds the opposite of your claim. Kids didn't really care which toys they play with until a certain age, when gender socialization starts to take hold. That age is actually right where your study begins. We are fed social cues from a far earlier age than most realize.
https://link.springer.com/article/1...1199-017-0858-4


Except, I posted a meta-analysis which looks at 16 studies and was published after the study in question.

quote:
None of those conflict with gender being socially constructed though.


Uh, what? If sex plays a part in Gender, that does conflict with the idea of gender being a social construct.


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Last edited by DarthSkywalker0 on Sep 10th, 2018 at 04:49 PM

Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 04:46 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Putinbot1
Yeah Oxford is the only dictionary of the English Language that matters.


What a genius and evidence-based argument from Putinbot1, what an adult he makes all of us look like children.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 04:48 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Except, I posted a meta-analysis which looks at 16 studies and was published after the study in question.

Uh, what? If sex plays a part in Gender, that does conflict with the idea of gender being a social construct.

And none of them covered the age range of the one I posted. They all started after the age where kids are found to have had their preferences altered by social factors.(about 1 year of age)

Your Merriam Webster reference mentions sex as a classification, which it is biologically. That wasn't in question. And you didn't post the rest of their definition

"2b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex"

The Cambridge definition specifically adds an "or" after the line about sex, indicating a different definition. The state of being male or female can absolutely still be socially constructed. It didn't say it was restricted to biology.

Cambridge also has this listed as a definition.
"The physical and/or social condition of being male or female"

There does, in fact, seem to be agreement that gender is socially constructed. There is probably a complex interplay of biology and society at work here though. We use gender to refer the social stuff, and sex to refer to the biological stuff.


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Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 10th, 2018 at 05:13 PM

Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 05:06 PM
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DarthSkywalker0
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
And none of them covered the age range of the one I posted. They all started after the age where kids are found to have had their preferences altered by social factors.(about 1 year of age)


But it doesn't matter, because they make clear that while the presence of social factors does play a role, innate factors are more significant(they observe this as the presence of the parent plays no role). But, even the study you cited never denies the role of biology in preferences, in fact, it subtly endorses it lol. Here is a study which finds differences at nine months: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...60715114739.htm

quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
Your Merriam Webster reference mentions sex as a classification, which it is biologically. That wasn't in question. And you didn't post the rest of their definition


But it does do that. It says that gender is partly based on a few distinguishable characteristics and mentions sex. You posted a secondary definition, but given that they were in different contexts, I felt no need to post it. I never denied that the dictionaries didn't favor Putinbot's interpretation. I just made clear that dictionaries are quite vague when approaching the topic, and thusly have little bearing in this discussion.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
The Cambridge definition specifically adds an "or" after the line about sex, indicating a different definition. The state of being male or female can absolutely still be socially constructed. It didn't say it was restricted to biology.


Yes, they cite two definitions which makes clear that it is up for debate on whether or not gender is just social. The strawmen here are disturbing.

1. You cite a study which shows social factors play a role in gender development.

I never deny this fact, but simply note that biological factors are also significant.

2. You tell me that the definitions are contentious.'

I never deny this fact, but simply note that the dictionaries are not clear on this topic.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 05:28 PM
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quote:
There does, in fact, seem to be agreement that gender is socially constructed. There is probably a complex interplay of biology and society at work here though. We use gender to refer the social stuff, and sex to refer to the biological stuff.


1. The very fact that "or" is there means there are two different definitions which automatically invalidates that idea that there is one set definition.

2. That isn't true sex purely refers to your organs there are traits which are biological.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 05:49 PM
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Putinbot1
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Anybody who doesn't know the Oxford English Dictionary is the premier English Dictionary in the world is retarded.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 05:57 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Putinbot1
Anybody who doesn't know the Oxford English Dictionary is the premier English Dictionary in the world is retarded.


Ever talk with a linguist? They love to say how all dictionaries are several years behind the trends, and how much of it is out of use terms nobody uses anymore.

Makes sense.. If you read a dictionary in 1990, I'd imagine all the definitions would be from the 1980's. And when they finally edit the new terms in, it's y2k.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 06:02 PM
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DarthSkywalker0
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Putinbot1
Anybody who doesn't know the Oxford English Dictionary is the premier English Dictionary in the world is retarded.


Its considered the premier for England whereas as Webster is the premier for America.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 06:05 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb
What's also ironic is that the best defense transgender people have, just like gays, is that it's a quantifiable innate characteristic linked to biology and thus something that can't just be dispensed with...
Actually, most of us aren't interested in trying to prove our existence to straight people. sick

quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm not following. Why would that help folks understand themselves better than simply trying what suits them?

I see what you're saying, but the fact that they must "deviate" indicates the problem before we start. Is there a world where the social expectation can exist and people not get ostracized for being different?
Agreed, it's infantilising to suggest that people need gender norms to navigate their personality, or in other words be told how they should dress, act, think etc. More than that, it's often a failure to conform to more harmful stereotypes that form leading causes in depression, suicide and the like.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well sure but in that case it is socially negotiated, there's defined parameters and markers around it.

For a binary transgender person the markers are obvious (male and female gender roles, clothes, appearance, etc.), for someone completely inventing a new category around which there are no deeply culturally ingrained markers or clear conceptualization within society, then that's not socially negotiated as much as you saying "I'm this thing and you have to refer to me as that."
Or in other words, DMB is unable to conceive something that exists outside the gender binary, something that (very probably) frightens him.

Fortunately more open minded people who don't approach non-binary and gender fluidity with mockery and dismissal as "weird upside down triangle bullshit" are socially negotiating these new spaces by actually listening. eek!

My prediction: in years to come those 'I-identify-as-an-attack-helicopter' types will find themselves increasingly pushed to the fringe as society moves on without them. I suggest we plow ahead with the new world order right now, and identify this sad sub-group of people as a prehistoric reptile of choice, like a diplodingus. sad


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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Its considered the premier for England whereas as Webster is the premier for America.
Who invented the language. roll eyes (sarcastic)


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 06:07 PM
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@dmb

Are you one those people who believe sexual attraction and more to the point you made homosexuality, is a choice?


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 06:15 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Who invented the language. roll eyes (sarcastic)
it's considered top for "English" in the world. Agreed! Anyone who thinks otherwise is retarded!


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