"Meaning is use" as applies to linguistics, refers to old words developing new meanings through common usage, or new words coming into being.
An individual who uses words in a different way, or who makes up his own words, is just being odd. He won't single handedly redefine the dictionary.
This gender thing is like that. They're arguing individuals get to define whatever they want, and everyone needs to affirm that.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
The fact that transgenderism is even a political topic at all highlights the world's problem with it. You think the average Joe would be cool and tolerant when his son wants to become his daughter?
You may live in a progressive area, and I commend you for your tolerance, but we can't pretend we're in some flowery world where people can always just express their gender identity freely.
Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 10th, 2018 at 02:01 PM
Isn't the military thing more about paying for procedures?
That I can see. I don't have a problem with someone's lifestyle decision, but that doesn't mean I'll support society paying for it.
Not when I can't even get it to pay for help for my decrepit grandfather, who can't even pull on his own pants or feed himself, which I consider far more important then someone's elective hormone replacement therapy/surgery.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Well, not quite. It's someone choosing their identity and informing you what the label is. Asking us to use that label is different from placing constraints on personal expression. The idea is that non-binary has always existed, but we never acknowledged it due to ignorance or bias.
In an ideal world, this may actually be a valid approach. Unfortunately, the cat is out of the bag so to speak. The constructs around male and female are here, and until society evolves into something else, those terms point to commonly understood modes of expression.
I see socially negotiated and socially constructed as mostly redudant. It doesn't change anything. A rude person doesn't actually participate in any of the modes of polite identity. A transgender person does participate in the the modes of their gender.
I see that as simply encouraging positive traits, which are mostly identical among genders. You don't want to raise honest women but dishonest men. Or kind men but selfish women. A positive model of behavior is probably good, but gendering it isn't necessary. People will still be free, possibly more so, to explore their own individual identities outside of that.
Edit: I think what you're talking about is actually the "I'm not on the spectrum at all" folks. The whole point of adopting the spectrum view of things was to be all-inclusive. The folks thinking they aren't on it at all are misguided. Non-binary makes sense at least, as we can exhibit both masculine and feminine traits at once.
But to claim to be outside of the spectrum entirely....lol. Some folks want to be unicorns I guess.
Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 10th, 2018 at 02:47 PM
I don't think anyone even read the study in question.
You are so full of shit; I can see it peaking through my computer screen. Did you even look?
Merriam Webster: a subclass within a grammatical class (such as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (such as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms
Cambridge: the male or female sex, or the state of being either male or female
Some dictionaries like Collins note that some consider gender to be biological and other cultural so they provide two definitions.
Some of these definitions like Webster are a little vague, but the point is, there is no accepted dictionary definition. And even if there were, that would not invalidate my point; they argue that the social traits are not correlated with your biological sex. The meta-analysis I posted begs to differ. Try again next time.
__________________ "I killed them, of course. Just as I killed the Guardian. Just as I now kill you."
Last edited by DarthSkywalker0 on Sep 10th, 2018 at 03:32 PM
I did. This finds the opposite of your claim. Kids didn't really care which toys they play with until a certain age, when gender socialization starts to take hold. That age is actually right where your study begins. We are fed social cues from a far earlier age than most realize. https://link.springer.com/article/1...1199-017-0858-4
None of those conflict with gender being socially constructed though.
Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 10th, 2018 at 04:27 PM
And none of them covered the age range of the one I posted. They all started after the age where kids are found to have had their preferences altered by social factors.(about 1 year of age)
Your Merriam Webster reference mentions sex as a classification, which it is biologically. That wasn't in question. And you didn't post the rest of their definition
"2b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex"
The Cambridge definition specifically adds an "or" after the line about sex, indicating a different definition. The state of being male or female can absolutely still be socially constructed. It didn't say it was restricted to biology.
Cambridge also has this listed as a definition.
"The physical and/or social condition of being male or female"
There does, in fact, seem to be agreement that gender is socially constructed. There is probably a complex interplay of biology and society at work here though. We use gender to refer the social stuff, and sex to refer to the biological stuff.
Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 10th, 2018 at 05:13 PM
But it doesn't matter, because they make clear that while the presence of social factors does play a role, innate factors are more significant(they observe this as the presence of the parent plays no role). But, even the study you cited never denies the role of biology in preferences, in fact, it subtly endorses it lol. Here is a study which finds differences at nine months: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...60715114739.htm
But it does do that. It says that gender is partly based on a few distinguishable characteristics and mentions sex. You posted a secondary definition, but given that they were in different contexts, I felt no need to post it. I never denied that the dictionaries didn't favor Putinbot's interpretation. I just made clear that dictionaries are quite vague when approaching the topic, and thusly have little bearing in this discussion.
Yes, they cite two definitions which makes clear that it is up for debate on whether or not gender is just social. The strawmen here are disturbing.
1. You cite a study which shows social factors play a role in gender development.
I never deny this fact, but simply note that biological factors are also significant.
2. You tell me that the definitions are contentious.'
I never deny this fact, but simply note that the dictionaries are not clear on this topic.
__________________ "I killed them, of course. Just as I killed the Guardian. Just as I now kill you."
1. The very fact that "or" is there means there are two different definitions which automatically invalidates that idea that there is one set definition.
2. That isn't true sex purely refers to your organs there are traits which are biological.
__________________ "I killed them, of course. Just as I killed the Guardian. Just as I now kill you."
Ever talk with a linguist? They love to say how all dictionaries are several years behind the trends, and how much of it is out of use terms nobody uses anymore.
Makes sense.. If you read a dictionary in 1990, I'd imagine all the definitions would be from the 1980's. And when they finally edit the new terms in, it's y2k.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Actually, most of us aren't interested in trying to prove our existence to straight people.
Agreed, it's infantilising to suggest that people need gender norms to navigate their personality, or in other words be told how they should dress, act, think etc. More than that, it's often a failure to conform to more harmful stereotypes that form leading causes in depression, suicide and the like.
Or in other words, DMB is unable to conceive something that exists outside the gender binary, something that (very probably) frightens him.
Fortunately more open minded people who don't approach non-binary and gender fluidity with mockery and dismissal as "weird upside down triangle bullshit" are socially negotiating these new spaces by actually listening.
My prediction: in years to come those 'I-identify-as-an-attack-helicopter' types will find themselves increasingly pushed to the fringe as society moves on without them. I suggest we plow ahead with the new world order right now, and identify this sad sub-group of people as a prehistoric reptile of choice, like a diplodingus.
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