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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Revan vs. Thrawn


Revan vs. Thrawn
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
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Remove Revan from the equation and they wouldn't have won, lol.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 05:44 PM
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victreebelvictr
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Jaggarath
Remove Revan from the equation and they wouldn't have won, lol.
Doesn't mean that it was all Revan.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 05:44 PM
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Jmanghan
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
You said some, not just Revan, he was a big part of it, but it wasn't just him that won it.
Without Revan, they would have lost, the Jedi he brought with him were not large enough to make that much of a difference.

Now, if the Republic and ALL of the Jedi had joined, minus Revan, yes, they would have won with their combined forces, having the Jedi would be a major game-changer.

But Revan not being there with only the Jedi he brought over? Nah, not changing a single thing.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 05:45 PM
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Jaggarath
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I don't think Jman has stated that if you remove every soldier of the war besides Revan, that Revan could have personally defeated the Mandalorians, lmao.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 05:45 PM
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victreebelvictr
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Jaggarath
I don't think Jman has stated that if you remove every soldier of the war besides Revan, that Revan could have personally defeated the Mandalorians, lmao.
Probably not, not at that age.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 05:48 PM
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Zenwolf
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That's all well and good, but again it's nothing new. Thrawn basically has the same thing, he nearly destroyed the NR and was only killed by luck and basically being betrayed by his right hand...even then he had a contingency in place for a clone to take over but that was thwarted in the end.

So again....what else? Who does he scale from in terms of tactical ability? Do said people have any notoriety to their names in such fields? Do they have any feats?

Throwing a quote out that says he has a great tactical mind and what not is great. But is this the case of him being a big fish in a small pond? I mean you could seem like a geinus in a particular area if you're surrounded by those who only have average knowledge or somewhat great knowledge in said area.

That doesn't mean if you go to another group, that you'll outdo those who have an equaled or superior geinus to what you know.

I can really just name 3 perhaps that Revan could scale from and even then, these people just have some fair reputation to their names from what I recall...I'll have to see through my sources again though when I have time.

Thrawn meanwhile is a huge fish in a giant lake, as he scales from an impressive array of Imperial Admirals/Captains and so on, which they have their own accolades and feats to their names and even the baseline officer is nothing to dismiss.


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Last edited by Zenwolf on Sep 10th, 2018 at 11:38 PM

Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 11:35 PM
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victreebelvictr
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That is an amazing point, great job.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zenwolf
That's all well and good, but again it's nothing new. Thrawn basically has the same thing, he nearly destroyed the NR and was only killed by luck and basically being betrayed by his right hand...even then he had a contingency in place for a clone to take over but that was thwarted in the end.

So again....what else? Who does he scale from in terms of tactical ability? Do said people have any notoriety to their names in such fields? Do they have any feats?

Throwing a quote out that says he has a great tactical mind and what not is great. But is this the case of him being a big fish in a small pond? I mean you could seem like a geinus in a particular area if you're surrounded by those who only have average knowledge or somewhat great knowledge in said area.

That doesn't mean if you go to another group, that you'll outdo those who have an equaled or superior geinus to what you know.

I can really just name 3 perhaps that Revan could scale from and even then, these people just have some fair reputation to their names from what I recall...I'll have to see through my sources again though when I have time.

Thrawn meanwhile is a huge fish in a giant lake, as he scales from an impressive array of Imperial Admirals/Captains and so on, which they have their own accolades and feats to their names and even the baseline officer is nothing to dismiss.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 11:51 PM
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Selenial
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Thrawn meanwhile is a huge fish in a giant lake, as he scales from an impressive array of Imperial Admirals/Captains and so on, which they have their own accolades and feats to their names and even the baseline officer is nothing to dismiss.


I’ve always hated this argument. Obviously it’s easier to scale a character whose era is infinitely more explored, to the point where we hear the escapades of no-name captains. It’s highly unlikely and nigh illogical that imperial training produced substantially better tacticians than the Sith Empire, Old Republic and Zakuul.

Training doesn’t necessitate brilliance. Trench rose to galactic notoriety from a backwater planet with no ‘giant lake’ of tacticians to learn from, as have many others.

It’s virtually impossible to compare Thrawn and Revan, that’s a given. Suggesting Thrawn’s better simply because other commanders in his time are more fleshed out though is ludicrous. They both innovated, dominated their respective eras, and rose through the ranks due in no small part to their tactical supremacy. Thrawn had some ingenious smale scale victories, Revan masterminded galactic plots. They’re both impressive in their own right, tbh.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2018 12:44 AM
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victreebelvictr
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Yes, but it is important that we do not leave this ignored. That is what we do in KMC, right?


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2018 12:48 AM
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Zenwolf
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@Sel

Well that's how things work right? If a character doesn't have what is needed, then how do we even know they stack up to said character being compared? Also there was plenty of ample time to flesh out the Old Republic era and Revan himself, so I don't buy that argument either and that we should just put Revan on some kind of pedestal because....why?

Ok if we're gonna do that, then why don't we do it for other characters? I've seen some double standards, so why aren't we analyzing characters equally here?

I'm not saying Revan isn't impressive, it's just...it helps if there's some kind of gauge to work with here. But that said, I also agree that we can't really compare these two, Thrawn does have more in his favor however here. Plus the Empire did go through military history and theory, so it stands to reason that they learned from the past.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2018 01:34 AM
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AncientPower
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Jaggarath
That's stated by many sources. thumb up


*cough* With a little help from a certain General. *cough*


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2018 04:16 AM
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Selenial
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zenwolf
@Sel

Well that's how things work right? If a character doesn't have what is needed, then how do we even know they stack up to said character being compared? Also there was plenty of ample time to flesh out the Old Republic era and Revan himself, so I don't buy that argument either and that we should just put Revan on some kind of pedestal because....why?

Ok if we're gonna do that, then why don't we do it for other characters? I've seen some double standards, so why aren't we analyzing characters equally here?

I'm not saying Revan isn't impressive, it's just...it helps if there's some kind of gauge to work with here. But that said, I also agree that we can't really compare these two, Thrawn does have more in his favor however here. Plus the Empire did go through military history and theory, so it stands to reason that they learned from the past.


We do with force power, yes, but tactics are substantially different. Name any strong tacticians from any era, KotOR, SWTOR, ROTE, NJO, they all essentially have one common trait: ingenuity. It really doesn’t matter as much as most suggest that you’re facing opponents who are learned or impressive in their own right, because everything Revan, Thrawn, Anakin and co did subverted every rule or convention and took people by surprise.

If anything, being surrounded by people with standardised training makes it easier for someone to stand out, not harder. Thrawns background in the Chiss Ascendency is paramount to his skill as a tactician, new approaches are often more successful. Like I said, we can compare individual feats, like Thrawn’s asteroid feat, or grand scale victories like Revan’s conquest, but scaling just doesn’t work.

Although, to be fair, Revan’s still considered far and away the best tactical mind of the era by the time SWTOR rolls around, so he is at least placed above two war-time factions worth of individuals.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2018 11:48 AM
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Haschwalth
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quote:
Revan’s still considered far and away the best tactical mind of the era by the time SWTOR rolls around, so he is at least placed above two war-time factions worth of individuals.

What are you talking about, he is TOR's greatest leader.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2018 11:55 AM
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Zenwolf
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@Sel, I hate this quoting thing that doesn't work.

Yeah? Well Thrawn were also surrounded by those who had ingenuity, so it's not like Thrawn was the only one, he was better however. I think it does matter than using nothing.

I'm not saying he isn't one of the top tacticians/strategists, but it's kinda hard to prove where he exactly stands on any sort of list.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2018 02:06 PM
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Selenial
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Haschwalth
What are you talking about, he is TOR's greatest leader.


... Which is what I said?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zenwolf
@Sel, I hate this quoting thing that doesn't work.

Yeah? Well Thrawn were also surrounded by those who had ingenuity, so it's not like Thrawn was the only one, he was better however. I think it does matter than using nothing.

I'm not saying he isn't one of the top tacticians/strategists, but it's kinda hard to prove where he exactly stands on any sort of list.


That's on me I think, this site struggles with iPhone apostrophes. I agree that it matters that he's surrounded by strong tacticians, of course it does. There's only one other era with strategy as explored as the GE era and LOTF era, and that's the Clone Wars, and we've seen that during the Clone Wars the strongest tacticians and most infamous (Skywalker, Trench etc.) have not been the most well educated or experienced, merely the most ingenious.

I don't think you can 'scale' off other strategists at all, really. Not in the way that many try, which is why I've always struggled with this notion of ranking them. If you recall our older debates involving militaries I've been making this argument for years.


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Old Post Sep 12th, 2018 10:08 PM
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Galan007
|Imperial Tactician|

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah? Well Thrawn were also surrounded by those who had ingenuity, so it's not like Thrawn was the only one, he was better however. I think it does matter than using nothing.
Thrawn was so far above everyone around him that he considered others to be master tacticians if they could simply comprehend his plans/strategies after they were explained. This is because Thrawn was typically so many steps ahead of his peers that most of them still couldn't grasp the bigger picture, even when they were literally told what his plans were.


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Last edited by Galan007 on Sep 12th, 2018 at 10:42 PM

Old Post Sep 12th, 2018 10:38 PM
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FamedGod
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Whose boner is bigger?

Ant's erection for Revan
or
Kurk's hard-on for Raven

???

Old Post Sep 12th, 2018 11:24 PM
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Jaggarath
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LMAO


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Old Post Sep 12th, 2018 11:33 PM
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Zenwolf
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Registered: Dec 2013
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Selenial
... Which is what I said?



That's on me I think, this site struggles with iPhone apostrophes. I agree that it matters that he's surrounded by strong tacticians, of course it does. There's only one other era with strategy as explored as the GE era and LOTF era, and that's the Clone Wars, and we've seen that during the Clone Wars the strongest tacticians and most infamous (Skywalker, Trench etc.) have not been the most well educated or experienced, merely the most ingenious.

I don't think you can 'scale' off other strategists at all, really. Not in the way that many try, which is why I've always struggled with this notion of ranking them. If you recall our older debates involving militaries I've been making this argument for years.


I wouldn't call Skywalker uneducated nor Trench since the latter apparently has lived a long ass time so I'd say he has experience and Skywalker did get formal education with the Jedi Order which does include battles and what makes the galaxy go round, all that noise.

Though Pre-TCW, Anakin seemed mostly with Obi-Wan. (Yes I'm not going with this everything that's big in TCW being both, only the one.) So I can't recall if he's done anything big for fleet engagements.

But that said, I think you can, that is if they're from the same era anyway it's easier, cross era not so much. That also said, I'm not sure why it's a big deal if a character isn't in the top so and so.

Still me thinks we just spinning our wheels at this point.


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Old Post Sep 12th, 2018 11:39 PM
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Zenwolf
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Thrawn was so far above everyone around him that he considered others to be master tacticians if they could simply comprehend his plans/strategies after they were explained. This is because Thrawn was typically so many steps ahead of his peers that most of them still couldn't grasp the bigger picture, even when they were literally told what his plans were.


Right, hence why he's one of the best. smile


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Old Post Sep 12th, 2018 11:40 PM
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