Dude, he clearly says that "from then on, Vader was not as strong as the emperor, he was like Dooku or Maul, he wasn't what he was supposed to become".
That is as clear as indication that Lucas was talking about a general passage of time as any you will ever get. Not sure how it can be clearer than that.
The quote speaks about many subjects, not just that Vader can't surpass the Emperor. For instance, Lucas talks about how Anakin had applicable powers on par with the Emperor.
"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor" means that Vader again never reached the powers of the Emperor. It's not complex.
You can draw a conclusion that if Vader can't ever reach the Emperor's power, he either has inferior potential power or equal potential power (since he started off at a lower point), but the direct meaning of that specific sentence is explicit: Anakin used to have powers on par with the Emperor, but after Mustafar he's no longer Sidious-level and never again reached Sidious-level.
I think it's self-evident that Lucas is referring to Vader's powers as shown in his films and isn't invoking Legends anyway.
(But, if you demand it refers to 19 BBY, consider Palpatine says Vader has great power already within him and just needs to awake it - just that said power within is "like Dooku or Maul" level.)
"He wasn't as strong as the Emperor - he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" isn't the same as "He couldn't be as strong as the Emperor, like Darth Maul or Count Dooku," lmao.
So, to explain to the interviewer Vader's relative standing to the Emperor, Lucas referred to the unknown potential power of two far more unknown characters as a reference point, lmao? Rather than, you know, saying Vader has powers comparable with Maul and Dooku, and given we know Maul and Dooku's powers, such is an actually useful and relevant claim.
Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 03:42 PM
Lucas merely estabilished a inflection point from where Vader stopped being as strong as the Emperor and was "more like Darth Maul and Count Dooku." His views, in particular, composed the finished product Vader turned out to be not what he was in 19 BBY.
3. You basically said that "Vader would never become Sidious level"
So what lol? That is the exact same thing I said
4. Last time I checked, Revenge of the Sith was a legitimate movie
5. Yeah but
"From then on he wasn't as strong as the Emperor, he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" does mean that "he couldn't be as strong as the emperor, he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku". Let's not leave out key words here
You know, the whole rant about how Lucas was comparing the strengths of Vader and the emperor as a relative function of time, instead of blankly stating it for one specific time period, which, last I checked, with any common sense, is an allusion to potential, something which you have literally not addressed
6. Yeah, because at that time, it was evident that neither Maul nor Dooku would ever surpass Sidious lol.
7. You still haven't addressed the nonsensical conclusions, nor have you even begun to make something of an argument as to why the quote refers to power rather than the obvious conclusion being that it refers to potential other than some "Lol, Lucas obviously would want to clarify things to the interviewer in that particular way", while assuming that it wasn't obvious to people back then that both Maul and Dooku were just meant to be pawns and not true successors to Sidious
8. You reference Legends hilariously, but ignore that Vader has repeatedly stated to have grown vastly at multiple points in Legends, something which would obviously propel him much beyond Dooku or Maul level when you want to assert that 19 BBY Vader is comparable in ability to Dooku or Maul which is the conclusion you get when you take the quote to mean power instead of potential
Care to actually quote what on Earth you're actually talking about for each of those numbers, lmao? I wrote a response then deleted it because half the time I'm just asking what you're even responding to. I can't rebut and/or agree with you when your rebuttals don't make any sense.
In the meanwhile, this one I picked up clearly:
Which would be Vader unlocking that Maul / Dooku power within, lmao. It's not hard to follow.
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Just attach specific quotes to each part you're responding to, then we can continue it.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 04:06 PM
The entire point is about the part of the quote where it refers to Dooku and Maul and since you have clearly agreed that that points to the inflection point which was in reality 19 BBY, there needs to be no further discussion here.
Now we can twist and turn and argue and debate on this but you clearly agree that this was the gist of it
"19 BBY onwards Vader was not as strong as the Emperor he was like Count Dooku or Darth Maul"
Which was the exact meaning. No need to bring Vader's unrealized potential or any other part of the quote into this. To now argue that Lucas was referring to ROTJ Vader when comparing him to Maul or Dooku when he clearly explicitly alludes to 19 BBY Vader being comparable to Maul or Dooku is just justifying it with mental gymnastics
Instead of wasting time here, since I am multitasking on doing projects as well for college, just put points on each paragraph of your counter that correspond to mine
This clearly shows he's talking about the finished product Vader actually turned out to be - and it wasn't what he was supposed to become. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to affirm this if Vader's trajectory hadn't ended. Then, he says Luke could still become what Vader failed to be, in terms of power. It'd make no sense that Luke's potential "could become that".
LOTL: The issue is all your points are vague, short, and repetitive, so I cant respond if I don’t know what your points are specifically referring to.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Also, let's not forget that the main subject of the quote is Vader trying to turn Luke to the dark side:
The comparison between Vader, Sidious, Maul, Dooku and eventually Luke are just an explanation and elaboration on why Vader wanted to turn Luke to the dark side.
So, in addition to the last sentence I provided in my previous post, it's clear Lucas is referring to the finished character and not a iteration of it that didn't even know he had a son.
Vader obviously isn't better than Emperor or peak Revenge of the Sith Anakin but he is still better than Maul and Dooku even if he is on their tier.
And it is more evident in canon.
Oct 22nd, 2018 03:26 PM
