Sith Spirit is essentially a preserved field of conscious of the original being; the entity is fully aware of its surroundings and have full knowledge of the powers learned during the course of life. However, a Sith Spirit is virtually powerless in the absence of a physical body or another form of external aid.
When a Sith Spirit re-acquire a living body, the resultant Sith Lord can - in theory - do everything what he could do with his original body. However, the re-acquired body might not be as strong as the original body and therefore not as effective.
1. Palpatine's Spirit could not resist pull of the void for indefinite period.
"The Emperor continued his galaxy gun attacks but it was becoming more and more obvious that his cloned body would not live much longer. Without a new body he would be resigned to utter madness beyond death."
From (Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire)
2. Palpatine's Spirit was able to exist in vacuum for about a year due to his powerful physic connection with Jeng Droga.
"Sharing an acute physic connection with Palpatine, Droga supervised the other Hands and guarded the Emperor's yacht, Emperor's Shadow."
From (Star Wars Gamer 5: The Emperor's Pawns)
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"Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body. The infusion of Palpatine's overwhelming dark side energies reduced Jeng to incoherent madness. Eventually, Palpatine's Grand Vizier was able to find Droga and tear the Emperor's essence from Droga's body. Once again, Droga had saved his master."
From (Star Wars Gamer 5: The Emperor's Pawns)
Droga was the original FAIL-SAFE to cheat death, just in case.
This might be the member's point:
"The ability to transcend death is not exclusive to Jedi: Emperor Palpatine and the ancient Sith Lords Marka Ragnos managed to preserve their psyches after their deaths, but it seems their spiritual forms were restricted by certain boundaries and limitations. Palpatine's spirit required cloned bodies to manifest his powers; Marka Ragnos's and Exar Kun's spirits were essentially trapped within Sith-engineered temples for thousands of years."
From (Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force)
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Nov 3rd, 2018 at 09:24 AM
1. Your quote substantiates my point, actually, because it states Sidious would be resigned to a state "beyond death" - the utter madness part is referring to living as a spirit, which is extremely unpleasant compared to a physical life. The Void is a tricky concept to get a handle on, but the short version is this: the void is simply what you call the place where spirits go when detached from their body. They are "there" but they also aren't "there", which is why people can't touch them. With that in mind, every source that talks about Sidious crossing the vacuum of space for a year refers to it as the void:
This is also stated in Dark Empire, that Sidious wants to avoid the forever-life as a spirit, because of how maddening it is to have no physical sensation or sense of space or time: (please log in to view the image)
With that in mind, very similarly to your own quote, it's said Sidious would be forever cosigned to the Void without a physical body:
While I know all of that is tricky to get a handle on, it is simple when you understand it. So let's lay out some simple definitions:
Void: an all encompassing terms for "where" spirits go after physical death, and also describes their "state." It's also important to understand that there are different depths to the void: the surface level, where spirits/ghosts can interact with physical people, and the deepest regions, where spirits and ghosts merge with the Force, give up more of their identity, and are not observable by physical beings. Hence "the pull" of the void is being resisted. Your identity is being "pulled" apart as you are being pulled further into the Void. The reason Jedi do this freely is because they want to become One with the cosmic fabric, whereas the Sith resist that fate at all costs.
Space: in this case, space and the void are synonymous, or more accurately, they run parallel to one another. It is both true Sidious was in space for a year and he was in the void for a year: and it makes it even more symbolic that space itself is a black "void" of nothingness.
References to the bodiless/perpetual/discorporeal madness of the "void": the simple state of being a spirit is madness inducing, because of the lack of physical sensation, sense of space and time, and the fact your very identity is constantly being ripped apart at the seams without an anchor etc.
Netherworld: another word for Void, the location and state where spirits reside.
Chaos: believed to be a a region in the Netherworld/Void where Sith Spirits go to live in perpetual torment. Star Wars hell.
The point is made even more clear when you consider that Brand had to attach himself to Sidious' spirit, drag him further down into the void, and then promised that him and the other Jedi spirits would restrain him there forevermore. If Sidious simply couldn't resist the pull of the void by itself, he would not need other spirits to restrain him perpetually.
Reading the following quotes side by side should hopefully clarify my point about the Jedi Spirits and also the fact the Netherworld has different depths:
(please log in to view the image)
My point about how the Jedi Ghosts are "there" but not really "there" - well, even when they aren't "there", they are still "there". Just deeper, and more entwined with, the cosmic Force. You get a "feeling" of the Jedi but you can't actually observe them, unless they make themselves seen.
Sidious, above all else, does not want to join them in the "there but not really there" place - he resists the pull of that realm, he very much wants to be "there", not kind of, not sort of, but 100% there. He can exist in the limbo beyond life and death perpetually, constantly resisting the pull of the Void, but not if he is being restrained by other spirits.
As for your other 2 quotes... just because Sidious had a psychic connection with Droga does not mean he is tethered to him. Your quote doesn't state as much and that is not something the source material has ever alluded to. Sidious very much survived in the Void off his own merit.
Again, this doesn't contradict anything I have said. It's a statement of fact that Sidious transcended death, but that in a bodiless spirit form he cannot interact as well with the physical world. Nowhere in this quote does it state Sidious needed an anchor: there are no anchors, no organic life or Force-saturated areas of any kind in the vacuum of space, where Sidious drifted for over a year.
Last edited by BestDebaterEver on Nov 3rd, 2018 at 03:21 PM
Also this, regarding the "there but not there" stuff:
The Jedi Spirits are not able to turn their attention away from the galaxy while the Sith/Empire are still in power. This is, quite intriguingly, why Luke Skywalker, Mara Jade and IIRC even Anakin himself appear to Cade to guide him, the same way Jedi Spirits have returned to guide others in the past. It's only in these times of need the Jedi spirits un-merge from the Void to appear before living beings.
Are people under the pretenses that the midiclorians of the host bodies has a direct impact of how much of the full power the spirit can give, and this applies to Karness Muur?
Wouldn't this either A) ignore the power of the original (effectively putting it at zero), or B) add additional power that stacks on top of the original host which can possibly lead to the full power of the spirit?
Or C) it adds nothing because the original midiclorians don't allow for a vast power upgrade, and it effectively makes the whole process pointless and the midiclorians of the host a dead end to bring up (even moreso than no evidence from Muurne points to midiclorians being a hindering factor)?
I'll probably try to simplify this a little bit after I take a poop. B is the one all evidence leads us to in this case while I do said poop. I'll simplify and expand on it in a bit though.
Here I'll try and simplify the amping a little bit:
No, I'm not speaking of the way the Sith spirit works in concert with artifacts or how it's worked for other beings (ILS is doing a good job reversing the logic used against him as far as hosts go), or how awktuallly it werks liek this. All I'm doing is explaining the Muur Talisman by basing it off of what it's shown and how it works.
The simplest and defined way it works is that it gives the wearer additional power. Absolute fact. The measure of power it gives the user is in upwards of where the power came from - Karness Muur.
What this means in the simplest terms is that while it might not prove that Muur has access to the full powers he had in life; the power accessible stacks with the wearer of the talisman. So if say Plo Koon was wearing the talisman, the additional power available wouldn't cap him at Karness Muur's level[1], it would theoretically grant him Muur's full power in addition to his own. Plo Koon plus Muur. [1]What this argument would effectively mean (the hard cap at Muur's original level), is that the more powerful the user is, the less actual power they receive from Karness Muur to get to Muur's original level. That would mean there is a lot of power still left inside the amulet that a less powerful user would make more use of. That can't be the case, and I seriously hope no one is thinking this.
It stands to reason that Muur - once he takes over - would have the highest available power afforded to him by the talisman. For all intents and purposes, he would be at full power, or able to tap into the residing powers the most.
We also know that Celeste on her own could amp off this power, yet still be considered below Krayt as she didn't fully embrace it. Once Muur took over however, he considered Krayt below him and fought on par with Krayt. He also gained potent force lightning which was a power Celeste never showed on her own.
An alternate is that is simply fills the user with a potential greater than Muur as well as it's power and their body may be able to handle it more, but that's a story for another time.
To speak of Celeste's power possibly inhibiting the full range of Muur's power; Muur stated she was both a suitable host, and a powerful one. Her willpower was not a damper on how much power she could pull from the talisman, but rather her ability to not concede to Muur's corruption or to spread the Rakghoul Plague. However, once she gave up control to Muur he was afforded even more power than what she showed, and gained powerful lightning powers. The power she wielded was not the issue, it was her willpower that stopped Muur from doing what he wanted. We saw her fight back control of her body for example, which is the only thing that was ever shown to hinder Muur in control. When that wasn't happening however, it's an assumption to claim she's hindering him as a host.
Additionally, Muur would make note of even more powerful users than Celeste. Which again, backs up the fact that it's not capped at a specific range, but rather gives the wearer additional power. Darth Vader will always be a more powerful user than Celeste. Considering we know Muur himself stated Morne was powerful and a suitable host, we know she wasn't limiting his power. Couple that with the Vader example and it again, backs up a stacking powers argument.
Otherwise, again you'd have to argue that it has a hard cap to its power (see [1]), and ignore that Celeste is a powerful and suitable host. If his purpose to is to simply be at his height, then Celeste's level is apparently enough. He doesn't need this additional power, unless again, it stacks on top of his Spirit's strength.
Now we'll get back to spirits a little bit. Yes it's true that the Spirit on it's own may be "powerless", or non corporeal rather. However, the Muur talisman was also "powerless" (as in amping qualities) before Muur got put in it. All of the additional strength that flows into hosts came from Muur's essence residing inside the talisman. The spirit is then merged with the user that can take over the body. The spirit is for all intents and purposes inside the body at the time, as the spirit is in the talisman and the talisman is attached to the body. Now, taken out of context as people want to do, we have the "But Karness Muur does" example that people use to put Muur above Vader. Ignoring what she actually meant by this and her immediate actions... people use this to outright state that Muur is above Vader. This leads us to a few interesting thoughts if we follow this as fact:
First off, this is Celeste stating this. Her only measure of power from Muur would be what is inside that Talisman. Which would indicate that this Sith spirit did indeed have power, and a buttload of it to be exact.
It would indicate that the power available to Celeste is the same as the power she felt inside the Talisman. Which would delete the "midiclorian force body" argument on its own.
And lastly in conjunction with the previous two, it implies that Karness Muur is at full power. If she can sense, and access the entire essence of Muur and determine he is above Vader, then it implies that her "vessel" wouldn't be limiting the power that Muur can give. Her vessel, as far as I can tell from what I gleaned from this thread, is the very thing that would hold Muur back from being at full power.
So at the very least, this would be Muur at full power as judged by some arguments of other people. Couple that with why I believe it's a stacking effect, and it becomes full Power Muur plus Celeste if people want to cling to the Vader example.
And we'll cover the Spirit Muur and host bodies vs Real Muur here.
You'll note that this argument effectively mirrors the argument for a hardcap[1] to the host's power. What you're essentially saying is that because she is not Muur, that she can't channel his power as well, and her limit is probably lower than Muur's real body. What this ignores however, is that more powerful users would use less of the talisman's power to get to Muur's level under those circumstances. If you're arguing that they could eclipse the power of Muur due to their midiclorians, then you effectively render the hardcap null and void, and open up the gates for power stacking.
This argument would also imply that Celeste's midiclorians were actually on par with Karness Muur as when we go back to the evidence, he says again, that she's a suitable host for his power.
And of course, this argument would also follow along the lines that the original body's power is useless (which is basically arguing semantics between the hardcap point).
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We'll go back to some actual proof here to sum up why it was a stacking effect however.
The user is filled with the power of the Darkside. The Darkside inside the Talisman is Karness Muur. This is not Karness Muur replacing the wearer's power. This is Muur adding additional power to the wearer.
Here is Celeste drawing additional power from the talisman. Again, if the argument is that she draws additional power to be hardcapped at Muur level, then this flows back into [1], or that she draws power from Muur, and then suddenly her original power is meaningless and it's all Muur's power from now on. She draws enough power that her original power just disappears. https://imgur.com/lzE9eym.jpg
"Give in to Karness Muur and use THE POWER of an ancient Sith Lord to defeat a new one..."
There is no separation of his power, his spirit, or him being an ancient sith lord. https://imgur.com/Eyxs7Xz
Again, this again shows that Muur gives her power. Power in excess of the ability to defeat Vader. "Accept my power", not "Replace your power with my own". https://imgur.com/kTvzUGv
Vader thinks the power would allow him to defeat Sheev. Couple that with what I've stated already (hardcaps, not replacing the original bodies power), but add in that we would have now jumped from Vader and weakened Krayt level, to Muur on his own being above Sheev if it weren't the case of powers stacking. https://imgur.com/xr692l1
Again, these are all things that have been shown before, but considering all the zero proof people use of Muur himself to attempt to prove their points, it's still relevant.
So basically, the talisman gives the user additional power and is filled with the darkside that is Karness Muur. This can either be drawn from or fully accepted which would be the full power of what the talisman has. Celeste Morne on her own is powerful enough to handle what Muur can give her in Muur's own words. It's basically an additional power source that if fully drawn on will corrupt and take over the host. That's all you have to look at it as.
If however, it isn't Muur's full power being given to users, then he gives an unspecified amount of his power that stacks with the user, which makes comparisons to his original body - and Ajunta Pall as this is the entire point of proving what a badarse Muur is - useless. It then becomes completely incomparable to what Muur was in his original body and as such his original power.
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So in summation, it has to be a stacking effect. Celeste's body is strong enough to handle the power given to her. And it's heavily implied to be the full power of Muur himself, and he is never once stated to have diminished in power once he gets a host.
It is Muur plus Morne's power IMO as judged by the evidence.
I probably missed some things and connections as I got lazy and stopped re-reading the comics and what people said plus I ran out of room and didn't want to make two posts about the wild speculation that's going on here, but we'll get to that when the time cums... if I feel like it tbh (there is a lot of none Muur related evidence being used against actual proof and I'm not a fan of having to address it). I had a lot more to say, but it's just the way she goes.
I tried not to say too much of what ILS is saying as well. Think of it as a side kick to his argument. Adds to, not restates.
Anyway, Krayt stalemated Muurne until he got STABBED WITH A LIGHTSABER, so either way, it doesn't reflect badly on him.
Yeah, all in all Mob has been far more thorough than I think anyone else has been willing to on this issue. Great posts. The "Muur scaling" always came off as extremely vapid to me, and was one of those situations where those proposing were unwilling to research into or hear any inconvenient truths surrounding the nature of Muur and Morne's relationship, Krayt's weaker status at the time of the fight or simply how the fight itself panned out. The writer intentionally teased the idea that Krayt was no longer the most powerful Sith by introducing Muur, and for some reason most people thought taking that teasing to the bank as cold hard truth was some kind of viable substitute for reason and evidence.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Muur's will is contained within the talisman; thus much of his strength. However, the ability to break out of his talisman and regain physical form; even stating outright that Morne is too weak and unworthy of his power, shows that she really isn't much of a boon of any sort to his strength. In fact, the entire point of the Muur Talisman was a trap by Sorzus Syn. She pretended to give him a talisman that would allow him to escape death, but she didn't tell him he could never break out with the power his spirit would have. Morne being too weak to bridge the gap between his spirit's power and the power he would have in life only shows me that Morne really is weak compared to him in a living form.
When you add on him being a Shadow Hand to Ajunta Pall. Who doesn't even compare favorably to Tulak Hord, nevermind Marka Ragnos, it shows just how strong they must be themselves.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Some of you may know that Supernatural Encounters was just released, which is the Star Wars EU equivalent of the Silmarillion with Lovecraftian twists.
Let's break this down on what you should post a source on, and that is everything in bold (really everything, but I'll try and answer the only important parts you brought up).
As for the unbolded parts:
As far as I recall, the only implication that he would ever break out of the Talisman was him thinking of what he could do with Luke. However, since it wasn't actually stated (and to fall in line with the rest of his history), we can assume him being "free" simply means "free" to roam the galaxy in a body he can control. His body was dead afterall, he would need a new body in the form of a host he has under his complete control. What you're speaking of, is a wearer literally breaking him out of the Talisman and RECREATING his original body out of scratch. Now where is the source for that that actually states this?
Now I may be wrong since I don't really want to go reread the issue, but him regaining physical form would also fall under a submissive vessel, meaning he's free. A vision where it doesn't state he regains his original form doesn't change his motivations. It just shows that he was behind what the body of Luke was doing.
As for Morne being too weak... he only said that she was frail to Krayt because she came to Krayt proclaiming he was a Sith Lord while his appearance was that of a weak woman. To assure Krayt he was more powerful than his appearance led on. If all Krayt could sense was a hologram, it's best to dispell assumptions of him being a pussy based on appearance.
Her strength was more than adequate in every other encounter including that one, and the two together are what you base your wild scaling off of (you proceeded to scale Kun far above Anakin based off Muur in a different thread). The importance of that is, what if I asked you to scale Marka Ragnos above Krayt? If your first and only thought is Karness Muur, then you're using a "weak and frail vessel" as the only thing you can think of. Shooting your prized pig in the head when nothing else works. It was good enough for scaling purposes, but not good enough to assume it might actually be at full power.
I realize you're pulling the "He did that at less power so his full power must be even more powerful" card out, but not only does that have no basis, but it also flows back into what ILS stated as in why this "frail" host can channel enough power from Muur to be perceived above Krayt and Vader. It's so frail but it can evidentally handle a lot of excess power without any adverse side effects... let's shit on the host to make Muur look better!
He then went on to brag about how powerful he was and how easily he could beat Krayt when Krayt didn't give in. He didn't say "I may be weakened but I'll beat you", he stated with 100 percent confidence how powerful HE was and how he was going to beat the shit out of Krayt without speaking of any sort of restrictions on his mortal form.
We already know he thought she was suitable and powerful when he wasn't trying to manipulate others, so cherry picking things that need context isn't the best way to go about it.
Karness Muur became a full fledged Sith Lord though. He became really old since he served under Ajunta. We've no idea how he compares to him afterwards, and he became a side character that was retroactively placed in outside of statements. Using him in these conversations is not too far removed from using "Most powerful Sith Lord" in relation to anything in the timeline that came after Vitiate, but before his actual inception. You hate that though, don't you?
Simply put, we don't know how he stacked up to other Sith Lords at the height of his power, and we don't know how he stacks up to Modern Sith Lords in his original body. He's a faulty device to try and scale anything from.
Nov 3rd, 2018 12:59 AM
