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Problem I have with Anakin=Sidious/Yoda
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism

How was Dooku slightly superior in 'Crisis on Naboo' when he got his fudge packed? Did you watch the same show as me? Unless you think there were circumstances to this?



Anakin had the advantage at one point when he kicked Dooku and was choking him. Given that ended with Dooku Lightning blasting Anakin away, that seems to me that the overall edge was with Dooku.

I'm not sure how we can see it any other way. Yes they were clearly peers, but Dooku's Force powers gave him the clear edge.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism
He was superior on all other occasions, barring one. Of course there's varying degrees of 'Dooku not killing Anakin.' Just because he's taking it up a notch each time, doesn't mean Dooku's going for the kill or going all-out. My argument wasn't that he remained at the exact same TCW Movie-level for every single fight against Skywalker... This doesn't contradict my claims. This doesn't address why Dooku doesn't just kill Anakin immediately after torturing him with Lightning and be done with it? He has Anakin dead to rights at least three times in the TV Show.



So let me get this straight. Your argument is that Dooku holds back to different degrees every time, depending on how much you liked the way the fight went? Lmao

Your completely unsubstantiated assertion is that Dooku never showed his clear superiority down to him not being allowed to kill Anakin.

Then you back this up by referencing Dooku's best fight against Anakin, but still claim Dooku wasn't trying to kill Anakin.

If you can't see your unsubstantiated claims are getting out of hand, then I can't help you any further.



Dooku has 1 chance to kill Anakin IIRC, which was when he needed to exchange him for Grievous. The fact that WE KNOW he needed to take Anakin alive at that point (Shadow Warrior), and yet required multiple magna guards for aid to do that, states a lot about your reasoning. Because clearly he knows Skywalker is too powerful for him to battle solo if he needs to risk not killing him.

You will have to point out these other 2 times Dooku could have killed Skywalker.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Of course he'd be improving, but not dramatically. The outlier here isn't in Season 6, it's Season 4. So the Creators just think Anakin's having a bad day when he doesn't hammer Dooku?



Or Dooku a good day, given Sidious highly motivated him right before that encounter.

That said, how much of a bad day was this for Skywalker? How many times was he floored, disarmed, choked or injured in that fight?



quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism
With his new and improved suit? That's a pretty immediate change, not some increase in power through combat and training. This is clearly a completely different situation...



Urm... The suit was that good that now he can stomp Obi-Wan (late into the clone wars no less) in 3 moves? And Obi-Wan from this late into TCW still massively improves by ROTS to the point where he stomps this Grievous. Jeez Obi-Wan should be stomping Dooku by ROTS with that kind of amp.

No, it's just not realistic to not have a bad showing once in a while when you keep facing the same combatant again and again.

And like I've already pointed out, it really wasn't that bad of a showing for Skywalker.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism
This is just retarded, lmao.



I find this kind of lauaghable when your entire argument here is based on Dooku holding back on Anakin for every single fight post AOTC, with absolutely Zero evidence of that.

Your argument is based around apparent inconsistencies around TCW fights, even though the director of TCW does not believe Dooku was ever holding back.

At least Yoda is a Jedi who had a strong bond with Dooku.

Dooku on the other hand has displayed he is envious of Anakin with clear hatred towards him on multiple occasions.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism
There's no butthurt.


Seriously it's Erkan levels of reaching.

It's literally the kind of arguments Erkan has made for Maul. That he was ALWAYS holding back on Obi-Wan because he wanted to torture him, but not kill him.

Ironically his stance has more evidence backing it.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Refer to above posts.



Not your best.

But then you are taking on a losing stance here.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Nov 19th, 2018 at 12:27 PM

Old Post Nov 19th, 2018 12:25 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
1. Ok, so him trying to kill Kenobi or Anakin shows his true intentions so it makes no sense to hold back after seeing the new Sith Lord.



He didn't know he's a Sith.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
2. Same with Kenobi and Vader. He left Vader for dead. Jedi do not let their emotions cloud their judgment. Do you even Star Wars?



Did Luke want to fight Vader?

Did Obi-Wan not attempt to talk to Anakin first?

Did Obi-Wan not beg Yoda to let him face the Emperor (certain death) over facing his brother?

You're in out of your league here kiddo. You have never had the interest in Star Wars that I do, and you never will.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
3. Dooku was subservient to him so an entirely different scenario since he is his subordinate not Yodas. He is Yodas enemy so why would yoda not do so if he could so casually? Try to make sense and to quit needlessly speculating.



Excuses. It's natural to resist a choke and he couldn't do it.

Plus that was from another frigging planet for crying out loud.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
4. Due to having to defend his Jedi friends.



Oh really? So what suddenly happened to this:



quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Jedi do not let their emotions cloud their judgment.



Like I said: You're in out of your league here.





quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
5. We see him swing his light saber at him and you yourself believe yoda can effortlessly overpower him with the force so why woyld he not? He can spare his life and defeat him so why not do so if he so easily could? You make no sense on every fundamental level and the enjoyable thing for me is you do not see it. Your emotions are not facts but you will continue to back your conjecture with more conjecture.



We know as a fact he didn't go all out especially with his Force powers. You can cry about this all you want, but all you have to do is look at the Yoda vs Sidious fight to see a Yoda whose going all out and whose on an assassination mission.

His first move against Sidious was to Force slam him across the room, something he never even attempted on Dooku.

So it's not conjecture, it's analysing based on the evidence. Looking at other fights, and looking at the background of the characters in question and their relationships.

Also I find it laughable that you thought I was hiding from these responses of yours.

Trust me, when I don't reply to you it's because your responses are not worth replying to. Same goes for everyone else who doesn't reply to you.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It would be better if you just quoted members.



Thank you.

That was irritating, going back to my post to see what the points were he was responding to.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Nov 19th, 2018 at 01:05 PM

Old Post Nov 19th, 2018 12:52 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
You are kidding with me, right?

Palpatine wanted Anakin the day he heard he is The Chosen One. Everything he did pre-Revenge Of The Sith was to shift Anakin's alignment to the Dark Side of The Force.

You can see Palpatine grinning when Anakin pins Dooku down in The Clone Wars. Palpatine wanted Anakin to kill Dooku and he revealed in Revenge Of The Sith novel or Attack Of The Clones movie that "their" plan was to seduce Anakin to the Dark Side, to join them. Of course Dooku thought Anakin would be used as pawn, but that's a topic for another day.




You haven't given any evidence here that Palpatine gave a no kill order to Dooku.

Filoni is of the opinion that Palpatine wants Anakin to prove himself stronger than Dooku before taking him as an apprentice. Which makes more sense.

Otherwise seriously where would it end? Would he order all the separatists not to destroy a ship that Skywalker was aboard? Would he stop the Jedi from sending Anakin on really dangerous missions?

Really think about it, then you will realise that you would need actual proof that Sidious gave this No-Kill order to Dooku regarding Anakin.

It seems clear to me this is some next level reaching from Dooku fans who simply don't want to accept that Anakin > Dooku.

Like Erkan/Marco levels of reaching, except for him it's concerning Maul.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Nov 19th, 2018 at 01:06 PM

Old Post Nov 19th, 2018 12:59 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You haven't given any evidence here that Palpatine gave a no kill order to Dooku.

Filoni is of the opinion that Palpatine wants Anakin to prove himself stronger than Dooku before taking him as an apprentice. Which makes more sense.

Otherwise seriously where would it end? Would he order all the separatists not to destroy a ship that Skywalker was aboard? Would he stop the Jedi from sending Anakin on really dangerous missions?

Really think about it, then you will realise that you would need actual proof that Sidious gave this No-Kill order to Dooku regarding Anakin.

It seems clear to me this is some next level reaching from Dooku fans who simply don't want to accept that Anakin > Dooku.

Like Erkan/Marco levels of reaching, except for him it's concerning Maul.


Then why didn't Dooku kill Yoda, Anakin, and Obi-Wan when Yoda was stopping that iron pylon from fallling on Anakin?

As said before, all Palpatine did - throughout The Clone Wars - was to shift Anakin's alignment to the Dark Side. If I was Palpatine, I'd order my men to shoot in Anakin's ship to force him make erratic decisions and embrace the Dark Side. You really cannot compare Dooku to a ship.

You can survive with The Force from a crashing ship, but not from a duel with another Force combatant.


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Old Post Nov 19th, 2018 01:15 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Then why didn't Dooku kill Yoda, Anakin, and Obi-Wan when Yoda was stopping that iron pylon from fallling on Anakin?



Because he was using the distraction to get away?


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
As said before, all Palpatine did - throughout The Clone Wars - was to shift Anakin's alignment to the Dark Side.



Yeah but he was confident Anakin would survive the clone wars without him having to interject all the time.

Notice how he only purposefully set up Anakin vs Dooku duels after Anakin had been Knighted for a while.

He waited for Anakin to be ready for such duels, but only wanted to replace Dooku once Skywalker had proven he's the stronger and superior apprentice.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
If I was Palpatine, I'd order my men to shoot in Anakin's ship to force him make erratic decisions and embrace the Dark Side. You really cannot compare Dooku to a ship.

You can survive with The Force from a crashing ship, but not from a duel with another Force combatant.



Okay but you're not. I'm sure even you will admit at this point that your entire argument is based on speculation, and not on concrete evidence. Therefore it's not factual.

There's more than just crashing ships. The whole Clone Wars is a big risk if Palpatines priority is recruiting Anakin. Lightsaber fights can easily end like AOTC with only limbs being taken off, so it's not more risky than fighting in a massive war.

Early In TCW S1 "Rising Malevolence" Palpatine politely asked Anakin not to intervene to find Plo Koon where he would then fins out about the Malevolence which was killing all the witnesses, and had both Grievous and Dooku on board. But notice he did not message Dooku/Grievous not to destroy his ship, which would surely have killed him. Even Palpatine asking that from Skywalker was pretty damn rare.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Nov 19th, 2018 at 02:56 PM

Old Post Nov 19th, 2018 02:52 PM
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TheNuisanceBird
Wrecker - Scientist Class

Registered: Jun 2015
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sinious
Why are you people acting like Yoda just said that Kenobi would fare better against Anakin and then left the reasons ambigious?


Because he’s trained Anakin? Also, Kenobi has a better chance of talking some sense into him which he probably could’ve if he didn’t reveal himself at the worst possible moment.


__________________
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Old Post Nov 19th, 2018 03:36 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote:
Because he was using the distraction to get away?


Why get away and not instantly murdering them - given Dooku does not have the No-Kill policy towards Anakin, right?

quote:
Yeah but he was confident Anakin would survive the clone wars without him having to interject all the time.


Palpatine does not have to interject all the time. All he needs to do is to tell Dooku to back off and only beat the crap out of Anakin, enough to make him cross over the edge.

quote:
Notice how he only purposefully set up Anakin vs Dooku duels after Anakin had been Knighted for a while.


Of course, he did. Only then Anakin would be competent enough in lightsabre combat.

quote:
He waited for Anakin to be ready for such duels, but only wanted to replace Dooku once Skywalker had proven he's the stronger and superior apprentice.


I am pretty sure the reason Palpatine used Dooku is due to the fact that he is rooting from a noble and very wealthy family. Palpatine was essentially using his money to instill and maintain The Clone Wars. That was the reason he took Dooku under his wing.

quote:
Okay but you're not. I'm sure even you will admit at this point that your entire argument is based on speculation, and not on concrete evidence. Therefore it's not factual.[.QUOTE]

Pretty sure, it is not. If Dooku really was allowed to kill Anakin. Then he'd have done it by now. There were so many times when he could have done it, but never did it.

[QUOTE]There's more than just crashing ships. The whole Clone Wars is a big risk if Palpatines priority is recruiting Anakin.


Of course, it is a big risk.

quote:
Lightsaber fights can easily end like AOTC with only limbs being taken off, so it's not more risky than fighting in a massive war.


When you have The Force with you, nothing is impossible. You can defend yourself from blasts, droids, etc

quote:
Early In TCW S1 "Rising Malevolence" Palpatine politely asked Anakin not to intervene to find Plo Koon where he would, then finds out about the Malevolence which was killing all the witnesses, and had both Grievous and Dooku on board.


You said it yourself. He didn't want Anakin to interfere.

quote:
But notice he did not message Dooku/Grievous not to destroy his ship, which would surely have killed him. Even Palpatine asking that from Skywalker was pretty damn rare.


First, Anakin was not alone there. huh

Second, the reason the Malevolence was destroyed is due to the droids that tried to reset the navicomputer, but they failed to do so, resulting in the destruction of the ship. erm

Or what are you referring to?


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Old Post Nov 19th, 2018 05:23 PM
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quanchi112
Junior Member

Registered: May 2007
Location: Avengers base


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Will reply to everyone later. Dont have time right now...

Except maybe Quan Depending on if he made any points worth addressing.
Concession accepted.


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Old Post Nov 19th, 2018 11:33 PM
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quanchi112
Junior Member

Registered: May 2007
Location: Avengers base


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He didn't know he's a Sith.

That does not matter since he threatened to kill Jedi so his ideology does not change the fact he was aiding the separatists and trying to kill Jedi. If someone I knew tries to kill a few of my friends in the duress of combat do I need to sit them down and investigate their head space before I take action? Seriously just go sit in the corner with this pitiful thing you tried to call a point.






quote:

Did Luke want to fight Vader?[/B]
No, but I am so glad you brought this up because you really did not even see it furthers my own point. The moment Vader learns the identity of his sister and threatens another he thrusts back into the fray and just destroys Vader. So it makes perfect sense for yoda to fight, defeat,or kill Dooku if he is threatening his friends and the galaxy.


quote:

Did Obi-Wan not attempt to talk to Anakin first?
[/B]
Entirely different situation but lets go there. Kenobi defends himself just like yoda does as dooku tries to kill him. Self preservation. Jedi code to protect others, etc. at play here but your he did not want to fight his old apprentice holds no water here simply because you believe so. You need proof not just your opinion.

quote:

Did Obi-Wan not beg Yoda to let him face the Emperor (certain death) over facing his brother?
[/B]
Yes, he did because he did not want to have to do this to him due to their personal relationship but when the rubber meets the road he left him for dead. His own words, I WILL DO WHAT I MUST. Same applies to Yoda but if you feel his emotions would supplant his obligation to duty you do not know this franchise at all.

quote:

You're in out of your league here kiddo. You have never had the interest in Star Wars that I do, and you never will.

[/B]
My left nipple could put debate you in Star Wars. I do not need a life long obsession like I do with marvel for Star Wars. I never cared that much for the Ot. Still do not. I adore Disney Wars but these are just a few films. One does not need a lifetime of study unless you are slow. By reading your thoughts I can safely believe this to be the case.



quote:


Excuses. It's natural to resist a choke and he couldn't do it.

Plus that was from another frigging planet for crying out loud.

[/B]
He was not expecting a choke so he fell victim to it. At no point does he defend himself but again we have other examples of force chokes working. Look at ventress force choke Kenobi and Anakin simultaneously in the heat of combat. Neither were able to break free until the ship broke her concentration. So you really do not have a point just wishful thinking. You debate based off your opinion alone which is generally just conjecture you get emotional over. Fanboy.




quote:

Oh really? So what suddenly happened to this:






Like I said: You're in out of your league here.
[/B]
laughing out loud








quote:

We know as a fact he didn't go all out especially with his Force powers. You can cry about this all you want, but all you have to do is look at the Yoda vs Sidious fight to be indisputable proof Yoda is going all out and whose on an assassination mission.
[/B]
Different situation. Do you ever think about what you post? Honestly. Firstly, there are not two fallen Jedi he has to protect and be mindful of in rots. Secondly, he is not in a senate room with pods. Dooku would not doubt probably hurl a pod or two at yoda. This false premise of lifting heavier objects in a feat being indisputable proof of going all out in a scenario is more conjecture. Yoda did the best he could in two entirely different environments and situations. He failed in both cases for different reasons.


quote:

His first move against Sidious was to Force slam him across the room, something he never even attempted on Dooku.
[/B]
Sidious was arrogant and dropped his guard, he was cackling like a moron dooku was never foolish enough to drop his guard. Read the situation you seem unable to process what is actually occurring in favor of your own opinion being the end all be all only explanation.


quote:

So it's not conjecture, it's analysing based on the evidence. Looking at other fights, and looking at the background of the characters in question and their relationships.

Also I find it laughable that you thought I was hiding from these responses of yours.

Trust me, when I don't reply to you it's because your responses are not worth replying to. Same goes for everyone else who doesn't reply to you.[/B]
You do not ever think logically and falsely dismiss the variables and situations that are different in order to reach your narrow minded conclusions.

You hid. At least you came back for your ass whopping at my hands.



quote:


Thank you.

That was irritating, going back to my post to see what the points were he was responding to. [/B]
This post decimated yours. Condolences to your argument.


__________________

Old Post Nov 20th, 2018 12:09 AM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Concession accepted.



You seem to have no idea what that means.

Stop copying other peoples words all the time.

I remember when you started copying Nai with “Emphasis Mine” and had no clue what that meant laughing out loud

That was hilarious.

Old Post Nov 20th, 2018 08:56 AM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Why get away and not instantly murdering them - given Dooku does not have the No-Kill policy towards Anakin, right?



Actually he was clearly more interested in Obi-Wan at that point.

And he was Yoda's Palawan so has a strong connection with him.

There were 3 people at stake there so you can't just run with that as proof of a no-kill policy towards Anakin lol.

Besides he ordered the death of all of them in the arena before that lol



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Palpatine does not have to interject all the time. All he needs to do is to tell Dooku to back off and only beat the crap out of Anakin, enough to make him cross over the edge.



Urm okay. Nice conjecture. But thats all it is.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Of course, he did. Only then Anakin would be competent enough in lightsabre combat.



Yes competent enough to actually have a chance of beating Dooku. Ergo these contests were set up to see if Anakin is > Dooku yet. Would be a pointless test of Dooku was always holding back.

And if Dooku was always holding back, then Palpatine wouldn't have needed to wait until Mid-TCW to set them up.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I am pretty sure the reason Palpatine used Dooku is due to the fact that he is rooting from a noble and very wealthy family. Palpatine was essentially using his money to instill and maintain The Clone Wars. That was the reason he took Dooku under his wing.



He was using Dooku, but he's gonna make the most of his apprentices. And at the very least have them as a backup if their first choice doesn't pan out.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Of course, it is a big risk.



Exactly Palpatine wasn't bothered about risks. Because if Anakin didn't survive then he would brush it off as he wasn't worthy and it wasn't his destiny. Much like he brushed off Maul after spending a decade training him.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
When you have The Force with you, nothing is impossible. You can defend yourself from blasts, droids, etc



Urm no. Jedi can be killed by droids when heavily outnumbered. See the Geonosia arena battle in AOTC.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
You said it yourself. He didn't want Anakin to interfere.



And yet never ordered Dooku not to destroy his ship.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
First, Anakin was not alone there. huh

Second, the reason the Malevolence was destroyed is due to the droids that tried to reset the navicomputer, but they failed to do so, resulting in the destruction of the ship. erm

Or what are you referring to?



Talking a couple of episodes earlier. The first episode with the Malevolence. When Anakin and Ahsoka went searching for survivors, for Plo Koon. The Malevolence was ordered to leave no witnesses. No special exemption was made for Skywalker who barely escaped.

Old Post Nov 20th, 2018 10:54 AM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
That does not matter since he threatened to kill Jedi so his ideology does not change the fact he was aiding the separatists and trying to kill Jedi. If someone I knew tries to kill a few of my friends in the duress of combat do I need to sit them down and investigate their head space before I take action? Seriously just go sit in the corner with this pitiful thing you tried to call a point.



Yeah except you are no Jedi.

Dooku was his Padawan, his brother. He needs to assess the situation, if this is a political dispute or if he has truly turned to the darkside.

He was there to stop Dooku, but not to murder him like he attempted with Sidious.

Any buffoon can tell the difference in those 2 scenarios.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, but I am so glad you brought this up because you really did not even see it furthers my own point. The moment Vader learns the identity of his sister and threatens another he thrusts back into the fray and just destroys Vader. So it makes perfect sense for yoda to fight, defeat,or kill Dooku if he is threatening his friends and the galaxy.




Urm, that was Luke giving into his rage. You expect Yoda to give into his rage and go all out to kill his former padawan you Doofus?



quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Entirely different situation but lets go there. Kenobi defends himself just like yoda does as dooku tries to kill him. Self preservation. Jedi code to protect others, etc. at play here but your he did not want to fight his old apprentice holds no water here simply because you believe so. You need proof not just your opinion.



No, he begged Yoda to let him face the Emperor instead stating he can't destroy Anakin. But Yoda ordered him to otherwise.

I have provided plenty of proof. The fact that Yoda simply DID NOT attack Dooku in the Force battle. And even in the Saber battle gave him a chance to surrender.

Proof and comparisons are in their various fights. Understanding Star Wars is understanding character relationships.

You with your "Hulk is strongest" marvel mindset wouldn't get that.

Anyone can drivel like you do but it doesn't mean much.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, he did because he did not want to have to do this to him due to their personal relationship but when the rubber meets the road he left him for dead. His own words, I WILL DO WHAT I MUST. Same applies to Yoda but if you feel his emotions would supplant his obligation to duty you do not know this franchise at all.



And yet it did, when he let Dooku escape to save Ani and Obi erm

The evidence contradicting your drivel is literally there in your face.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
My left nipple could put debate you in Star Wars. I do not need a life long obsession like I do with marvel for Star Wars. I never cared that much for the Ot. Still do not. I adore Disney Wars but these are just a few films. One does not need a lifetime of study unless you are slow. By reading your thoughts I can safely believe this to be the case.




Yeah yeah we get it. You love sucking Mickey Mouse's cock.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
He was not expecting a choke so he fell victim to it. At no point does he defend himself but again we have other examples of force chokes working. Look at ventress force choke Kenobi and Anakin simultaneously in the heat of combat. Neither were able to break free until the ship broke her concentration. So you really do not have a point just wishful thinking. You debate based off your opinion alone which is generally just conjecture you get emotional over. Fanboy.



And you have actual evidence of this right?

I mean you're not just randomly posting drivel or anything right?




quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
laughing out loud



Now this is where it's appropriate to say:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Concession accepted.






quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Different situation. Do you ever think about what you post? Honestly. Firstly, there are not two fallen Jedi he has to protect and be mindful of in rots. Secondly, he is not in a senate room with pods. Dooku would not doubt probably hurl a pod or two at yoda. This false premise of lifting heavier objects in a feat being indisputable proof of going all out in a scenario is more conjecture. Yoda did the best he could in two entirely different environments and situations. He failed in both cases for different reasons.



Ah so what you're saying is he was FORCED to hold back because there were 2 Jedi he was concentrating on protecting. Interesting.

And also hilarious as that again means he was letting his feelings get in the way of the bigger picture.

Funny through this debate with me you've completely changed your tune from "YODA WOULD DO ANYTHING TO STOP THE WAR"..

It's almost as if you're coming around because you can see yourself I'm clearly making the superior points.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
You hid. At least you came back for your ass whopping at my hands.



This post decimated yours. Condolences to your argument.




Hmm funny, given I'm right here taking on 3 of you.

Just maybe unlike you I have a life on the weekends.

Oh please, you can't even outdebate Fly. Trolling and spewing drivel is your one and only trick.

Old Post Nov 20th, 2018 11:14 AM
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RealistRacism
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I remember when you started copying Nai with “Emphasis Mine” and had no clue what that meant laughing out loud

laughing out loud

Old Post Nov 20th, 2018 11:14 AM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism
laughing out loud



Oh you should have seen that. It was hilarious.

He wasn't even quoting a passage and just randomly saying it trying to sound as intelligent as Nai.

Old Post Nov 20th, 2018 11:24 AM
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quanchi112
Junior Member

Registered: May 2007
Location: Avengers base


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You seem to have no idea what that means.

Stop copying other peoples words all the time.

I remember when you started copying Nai with “Emphasis Mine” and had no clue what that meant laughing out loud

That was hilarious.
You conceded then posted after your concession when you suddenly found courage.

I was mocking both you and Nai simultaneously you ignorant drone.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2018 02:42 PM
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Trocity
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He wasn't even quoting a passage and just randomly saying it trying to sound as intelligent as Nai.


LOL.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2018 03:05 PM
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quanchi112
Junior Member

Registered: May 2007
Location: Avengers base


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah except you are no Jedi.

Dooku was his Padawan, his brother. He needs to assess the situation, if this is a political dispute or if he has truly turned to the darkside.

He was there to stop Dooku, but not to murder him like he attempted with Sidious.

Any buffoon can tell the difference in those 2 scenarios.

Yoda already knew Dooku was allied with the separatists when he initially showed up. He sees him try to kill two fellowjedu right in front of him. Maybe you would need more intel but yoda is not an idiot. He knew the stakes and Dookus murderous intent by his actions in that scene alone.


Killing Jedi who are defeated is not hard to figure out. What you say requires any reasonable person to shut their brain function off.

He was there to stop/defeat/kill both. Yoda attacked Dooku with his lightsaber so unless I am mistaken that does not scream he is worried about killing him. Yoda does what he must. He is not some emotional goof like Anakin.






quote:


Urm, that was Luke giving into his rage. You expect Yoda to give into his rage and go all out to kill his former padawan you Doofus?
[/B]
This is why it is impossible to debate with you because you pivot about as often as Trump. Point is as soon as someone was threatened he engaged Vader. Yoda engaged Dooku as well. I expect yoda to defend himself against someone trying to kill him and his Jedi who were already defeated. Yoda is not emotional and let his feelings cloud his judgment.






quote:


No, he begged Yoda to let him face the Emperor instead stating he can't destroy Anakin. But Yoda ordered him to otherwise.
[/B]
Kenobi was able to do so abd he is far more emotional than yoda but somehow you believe yoda was compromised despite a Kenobi leaving Vader for dead when he initially expressed his uneasiness with the situation.

What in that scene shows yoda lets emotion override his Jedi obligation.

quote:

I have provided plenty of proof. The fact that Yoda simply DID NOT attack Dooku in the Force battle. And even in the Saber battle gave him a chance to surrender
[/B]
That is conjecture. You sadly are not even aware of your opinion not being anything based in reality. Your opinion of what he could have done does not make it a fact.

So? Yoda did not even draw is light saber initially with Sidious. That is not proof of anything other than him being ill prepared for the conflict initially. Just as your points are not proof of him holding back he just failed in defeating Dooku but with the Jedi there as helpless one can see why this happened. Yoda is a failure. I have said it for years.


quote:

Proof and comparisons are in their various fights. Understanding Star Wars is understanding character relationships.

[/B]
They are but you fail to recognize the differing variables to reach your biased conclusions. You create false equivalencies all the time.
quote:

You with your "Hulk is strongest" marvel mindset wouldn't get that.

Anyone can drivel like you do but it doesn't mean much.

[/B]
my point stands as it is more than reasonable. Your attacks are a sign you have no real counter.




quote:

And yet it did, when he let Dooku escape to save Ani and Obi erm

The evidence contradicting your drivel is literally there in your face.

[/B]
His obligation is to protect others especially Jedi. If you do not believe Jedi protect others you need to watch more Star Wars. You watched this your entire life and you just said protecting other Jedi is ignoring his obligations. Learning disabilities.



quote:

Yeah yeah we get it. You love sucking Mickey Mouse's cock.
[/B]
Make no mistake I swallow and enjoy every moment of it.




quote:

And you have actual evidence of this right?

I mean you're not just randomly posting drivel or anything right?

[/B]
So you believe Dooku expected to be force choked? You just said the natural reaction is to defend yourself now you abandon that line of logic. No, this is an example of Occams razor.


Just as with the other examples prove that if you are not ready for a force choke you will fall victim to it. Ventress executed a successful force choke in combat against two more powerful opponents. Sidious imploring one against a weaker subordinate who was not expecting it is the simplest explanation. If you could think you just might be dangerous.





quote:

Now this is where it's appropriate to say:
[/B]
What a delusional little man you are.






quote:



Ah so what you're saying is he was FORCED to hold back because there were 2 Jedi he was concentrating on protecting. Interesting.

And also hilarious as that again means he was letting his feelings get in the way of the bigger picture.

Funny through this debate with me you've completely changed your tune from "YODA WOULD DO ANYTHING TO STOP THE WAR"..

It's almost as if you're coming around because you can see yourself I'm clearly making the superior points.
[/B]
He had ample time prior to defeat Dooku. He failed. Yoda had time to attack and did not break through his defenses. Jedi protect the fallen.

If you do not think they do so I suggest watching Star Wars with an adult present.

He tried he just failed. Just as he failed against Sidious for different reasons. The guy fails but I give him credit for the attempts.





quote:

Hmm funny, given I'm right here taking on 3 of you.

Just maybe unlike you I have a life on the weekends.

Oh please, you can't even outdebate Fly. Trolling and spewing drivel is your one and only trick. [/B]
If you consider baseless conjecture taking people on go nuts, Trumper.

We both know that is not the case. I imagine you are busy doing the chore list your wife sets out for you.

Hilarious since both you and fly debate based off your opinion alone.


__________________

Old Post Nov 20th, 2018 03:28 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote:
Actually he was clearly more interested in Obi-Wan at that point.


No, sir, he was not clearly more interested in Obi-Wan at that point. You literally see him in Attack Of The Clones that he is about to kill him when, suddenly, Anakin interferes and saves his master.

quote:
And he was Yoda's Padawan so has a strong connection with him.


Obi-Wan also had a strong connection with Anakin, but that did not prevent him from fighting Anakin.
And before you use the argument of Obi-Wan letting him to burn because he cared about him; you would be wrong. The reason being that Jedi do not kill the defenseless. Obi-Wan had a code, and he respected it.
Was he devastated by what happened with Anakin? Absolutely. Was he willing to kill Anakin? Of course. He states that much.

quote:
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes, I will do what I must."



quote:
There were 3 people at stake there so you can't just run with that as proof of a no-kill policy towards Anakin lol.


What do you mean by "stake", honestly? Dooku was bent to kill them all if what you say about Dooku's No-Kill Policy is not true. He could have just crushed them all when Yoda was preoccupied with saving Obi-Wan and Anakin from the fallen pylon.
Don't you think Dooku would have killed all three of them if Palpatine ordered him to test Anakin even up to the point of literally killing him to prove himself worthy? And if he died, then Dooku would be the "true" apprentice, and not Anakin. But for some odd reason, that never happened.


quote:
Besides he ordered the death of all of them in the arena before that lol


You are missing context here:
1. He gave them the chance to surrender
2. It was not just Anakin there, it was Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto, and Mace Windu(and other Jedi)
There were a lot of Jedi. Surely Anakin would survive through this if he had beside him someone like Kenobi and Windu to help them.

quote:
Urm okay. Nice conjecture. But thats all it is.


Nice way of saying: "I don't know how to respond to that."


quote:
Yes competent enough to actually have a chance of beating Dooku. Ergo these contests were set up to see if Anakin is > Dooku yet. Would be a pointless test if Dooku was always holding back.


Competent enough to survive Tyranus in better words. And it would not be a pointless test since Palpatine always wanted a loyal and blind follower who would do all his needs. Dooku fit this criteria too, but only to a certain extent.

quote:
And if Dooku was always holding back, then Palpatine wouldn't have needed to wait until Mid-TCW to set them up.


It's become very obvious to me that you do not understand why Sidious wanted Anakin. The reason Sidious wanted Anakin was due to his role he would play in bringing the Sith to power.
Sidious did not choose Anakin because he was "strong", he chose him because Anakin was the weak link within the ranks of The Jedi. To put it in simple words: he was the Trojan Horse of The Jedi.

quote:
He was using Dooku, but he's gonna make the most of his apprentices. And at the very least have them as a backup if their first choice doesn't pan out.


Is not what any Sith does? You are using this as an example to prove Dooku did not hold back?

quote:
Exactly Palpatine wasn't bothered about risks. Because if Anakin didn't survive then he would brush it off as he wasn't worthy and it wasn't his destiny. Much like he brushed off Maul after spending a decade training him.


Totally false! Sidious always had a reason for using his "apprentices".

First, he used Darth Maul as his personal Sith assassin and Jedi decoy to make the Jedi Council believe that Maul was the(only) Sith Lord and that he died, that he was the "Phantom Menace".
Second, he used Darth Tyranus as means to use his wealth, then instill and maintain The Clone Wars, enough to seize power to ascend to the rank of Supreme Chancellor. Then he kept pushing Dooku to cause wars against The Republic to distract the Jedi from himself
Third, he used Darth Vader to kill Windu, and all those present at the Jedi Temple. He was basically the living version of Order 66. Now we return back to Darth Tyranus - who is now revealed as an "evil" Jedi. And now, suddenly, the Jedi are evil, and Sidious is good.


quote:
Urm no. Jedi can be killed by droids when heavily outnumbered. See the Geonosia arena battle in AOTC.


Are you really comparing Anakin and Windu to fodder Jedi?

Is this your best argument you could come up with? erm

Kyle Katarn faced numerous stormtroopers or pirates, and yet he was never killed.


quote:
And yet never ordered Dooku not to destroy his ship.


What are you talking about? huh

I don't remember Dooku nor Grievous ordering the destruction of the Malevolence.

quote:
Talking a couple of episodes earlier. The first episode with the Malevolence. When Anakin and Ahsoka went searching for survivors, for Plo Koon. The Malevolence was ordered to leave no witnesses. No special exception was made for Skywalker who barely escaped.


And you would expect Grievous to purposefully leave everyone alive if Anakin is with them? That is now how it works.
Even then, the ion canons merely disable ships' power source. They don't tear ships apart.

quote:
"A weapon that neutralizes all power to our ships, rendering the targets defenseless."
―Plo Koon


On top of that, Grievous does not even know he is serving the Sith and that he is one of the villains.
Also if Dooku or the "shadowy figure" told him not to harm Anakin in any way, don't you think it would make Grievous suspecting that something wrong is going on?

You may have a point about Dooku desiring to kill Anakin. We know that Dooku is not very fond of the idea that Anakin should join the Sith. There may have been instances when he wanted to kill Anakin(but those involved not facing Anakin in combat)


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Old Post Nov 20th, 2018 07:20 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
No, sir, he was not clearly more interested in Obi-Wan at that point. You literally see him in Attack Of The Clones that he is about to kill him when, suddenly, Anakin interferes and saves his master.



He asked Obi-Wan to join him in destroying Sidious.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Obi-Wan also had a strong connection with Anakin, but that did not prevent him from fighting Anakin.
And before you use the argument of Obi-Wan letting him to burn because he cared about him; you would be wrong. The reason being that Jedi do not kill the defenseless. Obi-Wan had a code, and he respected it.
Was he devastated by what happened with Anakin? Absolutely. Was he willing to kill Anakin? Of course. He states that much.




He begged Yoda to let him fight Sidious over Anakin.

He saw the evidence of what Anakin had become, yet still tried reasoning with him first.

Yoda on the other hand was still analysing the situation with Dooku when confronting him "Powerful you have become Dooku, the dark side I sense in you."




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
What do you mean by "stake", honestly? Dooku was bent to kill them all if what you say about Dooku's No-Kill Policy is not true. He could have just crushed them all when Yoda was preoccupied with saving Obi-Wan and Anakin from the fallen pylon.
Don't you think Dooku would have killed all three of them if Palpatine ordered him to test Anakin even up to the point of literally killing him to prove himself worthy? And if he died, then Dooku would be the "true" apprentice, and not Anakin. But for some odd reason, that never happened.



Speculation. He clearly used that as a distraction to escape, and was not going to risk his escape at that point.

Point being he did try to kill Anakin and Obi-Wan and all the Jedi earlier.


Realist's claims makes more sense that Dooku was given the no-kill order post AOTC. Your theory is just not adding up at all.

However you are both lacking a vital thing named proof. Proof that:

1) This no-kill policy existed througout TCW
2) Dooku was abiding by this supposed no-kill policy and massively holding back on Anakin as a result.

It just seems to me like you are both reaching and attempting to make this idea be consistent with the facts, simply to avoid the notion that perhaps Anakin > Dooku.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
You are missing context here:
1. He gave them the chance to surrender
2. It was not just Anakin there, it was Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto, and Mace Windu(and other Jedi)
There were a lot of Jedi. Surely Anakin would survive through this if he had beside him someone like Kenobi and Windu to help them.



Point is the order was given to kill them. Which would contradict Palpatines supposed No-Kill Order on Anakin.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Nice way of saying: "I don't know how to respond to that."



Or maybe I just don't see the need in addressing your own interpretation of events not backed by any facts.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Competent enough to survive Tyranus in better words. And it would not be a pointless test since Palpatine always wanted a loyal and blind follower who would do all his needs. Dooku fit this criteria too, but only to a certain extent.



It's become very obvious to me that you do not understand why Sidious wanted Anakin. The reason Sidious wanted Anakin was due to his role he would play in bringing the Sith to power.
Sidious did not choose Anakin because he was "strong", he chose him because Anakin was the weak link within the ranks of The Jedi. To put it in simple words: he was the Trojan Horse of The Jedi.



What was the point of these Dooku vs Anakin contests Palpatine set up twice?

Yeah strange I never got that. Because I thought Palpatine was interested in Anakin due to his unmatched potential in the Force. And the opportunity to continue the Banite goal of each generation getting more and more powerful.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Is not what any Sith does? You are using this as an example to prove Dooku did not hold back?



Totally false! Sidious always had a reason for using his "apprentices".

First, he used Darth Maul as his personal Sith assassin and Jedi decoy to make the Jedi Council believe that Maul was the(only) Sith Lord and that he died, that he was the "Phantom Menace".
Second, he used Darth Tyranus as means to use his wealth, then instill and maintain The Clone Wars, enough to seize power to ascend to the rank of Supreme Chancellor. Then he kept pushing Dooku to cause wars against The Republic to distract the Jedi from himself
Third, he used Darth Vader to kill Windu, and all those present at the Jedi Temple. He was basically the living version of Order 66. Now we return back to Darth Tyranus - who is now revealed as an "evil" Jedi. And now, suddenly, the Jedi are evil, and Sidious is good.



He used them, but they were still his Apprentices. If Anakin hadn't worked out you don't think he would have kept Maul or Dooku?




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Are you really comparing Anakin and Windu to fodder Jedi?

Is this your best argument you could come up with? erm

Kyle Katarn faced numerous stormtroopers or pirates, and yet he was never killed.




The film made it clear the Jedi would have been wiped out there. Legends is full of inconsistencies.

But okay, for arguments sake lets go with that. Even if the elite could have survived, are we forgetting Anakin, Padme's and Obi-Wan's public executions were already ordered before the other Jedi arrived to rescue them?

There was clearly no "No-Killing Anakin" order at the time of AOTC. You will need to switch to Realist's stance to continue this.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
What are you talking about? huh

I don't remember Dooku nor Grievous ordering the destruction of the Malevolence.



And you would expect Grievous to purposefully leave everyone alive if Anakin is with them? That is now how it works.
Even then, the ion canons merely disable ships' power source. They don't tear ships apart.



On top of that, Grievous does not even know he is serving the Sith and that he is one of the villains.
Also if Dooku or the "shadowy figure" told him not to harm Anakin in any way, don't you think it would make Grievous suspecting that something wrong is going on?



The episode is "Rising Malevolence". Second episode of TCW (not including TCW movie).

No one knew of the Malevolence and its Ion Canon, as any witnesses were killed.

Although Palpatine tried asking Anakin not to intervene, no order was given to Dooku not to destroy Anakin's ship.

Dooku and Grievous were both on board. Grievous would not have questioned it if Dooku said, I want the survivors of that ship alive.

And and more proof of how risky fighting in a war is for Anakin. But the risk was worth it as it ultimately makes him much stronger.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
You may have a point about Dooku desiring to kill Anakin. We know that Dooku is not very fond of the idea that Anakin should join the Sith. There may have been instances when he wanted to kill Anakin(but those involved not facing Anakin in combat)



Exactly this is what it all comes down to. It's really down to Dooku himself. Like if he did kill Anakin, what would Sidious do to him, I mean really?

Sidious might choke him a bit, but ultimately would just decide it wasn't Anakin's destiny because he wasn't strong enough to survive.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Nov 21st, 2018 at 12:11 PM

Old Post Nov 21st, 2018 12:06 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yoda already knew Dooku was allied with the separatists when he initially showed up. He sees him try to kill two fellowjedu right in front of him. Maybe you would need more intel but yoda is not an idiot. He knew the stakes and Dookus murderous intent by his actions in that scene alone.



I take it you don't realise that Separatists are not inherently evil.

Dooku also gave them a chance to surrender. None of this automatically makes Dooku a Sith.

The situation had to be assessed, before just murdering his former padawan and former highly respected Jedi lol.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Killing Jedi who are defeated is not hard to figure out. What you say requires any reasonable person to shut their brain function off.

He was there to stop/defeat/kill both. Yoda attacked Dooku with his lightsaber so unless I am mistaken that does not scream he is worried about killing him. Yoda does what he must. He is not some emotional goof like Anakin.



Actually it was Dooku who drew his lightsaber first. It was Dooku who kept attacking Yoda with the Force, Yoda was just there to defend himself, his fellow Jedi and to CAPTURE Dooku, to assess what the heck is going on with his former Padawan.

The dialogue makes that clear.






quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
This is why it is impossible to debate with you because you pivot about as often as Trump. Point is as soon as someone was threatened he engaged Vader. Yoda engaged Dooku as well. I expect yoda to defend himself against someone trying to kill him and his Jedi who were already defeated. Yoda is not emotional and let his feelings cloud his judgment.



Yeah I don't compare Master Yoda to Padawan Luke attacking Vader in a fit of rage LMAO






quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Kenobi was able to do so abd he is far more emotional than yoda but somehow you believe yoda was compromised despite a Kenobi leaving Vader for dead when he initially expressed his uneasiness with the situation.

What in that scene shows yoda lets emotion override his Jedi obligation.



Kenobi was given time to assess and accept the situation, but still begged Yoda not to make him kill Anakin, and still attempted to reason with Anakin first.


Which obligation? The obligation to the republic, the obligation to Anakin and Obi-Wan, or the obligation to his former padawan?

There were multiple responsibilities there for Yoda. It's not for you to decide that trying to fulfil all 3 of them makes him an emotional wreck.






quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
That is conjecture. You sadly are not even aware of your opinion not being anything based in reality. Your opinion of what he could have done does not make it a fact.

So? Yoda did not even draw is light saber initially with Sidious. That is not proof of anything other than him being ill prepared for the conflict initially. Just as your points are not proof of him holding back he just failed in defeating Dooku but with the Jedi there as helpless one can see why this happened. Yoda is a failure. I have said it for years.



Actually Yoda was the first to draw his Lightsaber against Sidious, unlike the Dooku vs Yoda fight.

Yoda force slammed Sidious as his first move, unlike against Dooku.

It's clear from both fights and from the story that Yoda went all out to Murder Palpatine, whereas against Dooku he was merely trying to bide time to prevent him from escaping.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Make no mistake I swallow and enjoy every moment of it.




Its about time you admitted not only your sexual preferences but what motivates all of your trolling. Corporate fandom, and not any actual sense of reasoning.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
So you believe Dooku expected to be force choked? You just said the natural reaction is to defend yourself now you abandon that line of logic. No, this is an example of Occams razor.


He's probably always on the guard for that yes.


Just as with the other examples prove that if you are not ready for a force choke you will fall victim to it. Ventress executed a successful force choke in combat against two more powerful opponents. Sidious imploring one against a weaker subordinate who was not expecting it is the simplest explanation. If you could think you just might be dangerous.



OR maybe Palpatine is just that much more powerful.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
What a delusional little man you are.




LMAO

You've already been called out on your insecurities today. We both know who the shorty is here. And who the fatty is sitting there eating donuts all day tossing off to Mickey Mouse.

Old Post Nov 21st, 2018 12:32 PM
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