This is quite true actually. There's no shame in losing to even an exhausted Starkiller given he's still above 99.9% of the mythos when operating at less then full capacity.
Last edited by Beelzebub on Dec 1st, 2018 at 06:45 PM
When power can be heavily influenced by severe emotional and physical circumstances... it kinda is. It degrades the feat utterly. Similar circumstances have caused Luke to drop several tiers. And the same goes for Anakin on mustafar. Which is why I don't compare Vader to Starkiller. The latter is probably some order of magnitude more powerful. This is apparent in the circumstances of their fight and their feature limitations.
In the TFU II novel Vader attempts to TK his personal TIE Fighter before it flies off. But he can't and gets figuratively left in the dust as he watches it disembark from the platform. This was on Kamino. Starfighters do not accelerate past around 1000kph in atmosphere - a safety mechanism in response to air friction. So he loses both in comparison and in features. The next big contender Vader faces is Maul in Legends. He wins a less-than-gratifying victory with a trick unworthy of TPM Kenobi's final ploy. And that's probably where he is as a combatant by this time.
Like I said Prime Obi Wan lost to an exhausted Dooku with the help of Anakin. While Vader lost to an exhausted Starkiller in an incredibly heated duel. Are we going to start calling Obi Wan "pathetic" now? Also Vader still won that duel against Maul no matter what.
"Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions" -Dooku
"He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being" - S'killer
One is in the beginnings of fatigue. The other is utterly pooped out. More pooped out than he has ever been. Even when he was starved for 14 days in the same story. You're also undermining the emotional hinderance. S'killer is unbalanced but trying not to use the Darkside at the same time while being haunted in PTSD fashion by flashbacks. The mental clarity that allows the Force to flow so strongly though him when he atomises frigates is not present. And he's running on an empty tank anyway.
I hope you get the picture. Dooku being used is a false equivalence. Galen's situation is more comparable to Grandmaster Luke at Sinkhole station where he puts himself on the same tier as Cilghal (utter fodder)
The intent was to capture, yes. But I see that as less (much less) of a factor than Kiiller's condition. I also doubt he'd hesitate in killing the clone if it meant his life could have been ended.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Last edited by HP Legend on Dec 1st, 2018 at 08:35 PM
Wow... This double standard though. You say Vader cannot deal with Galen's rage and bring up an instance of Vader being unprepared for Galen's attack. If you want to go down that route I can do that too.
"He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise. A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely."
-The Force Unleashed
You've always argued against this because of the premise that Galen was unprepared for Vader (which I agree with) but your also failing to apply your own logic to Vader as well. Once again please don't deliberately make this favourable to Starkiller and ommit context.
Next the below passage you cited shows favour to neither unlike what you want to believe.
Deliberately bolding everything that favours Starkiller does not make him better lmao.
"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision. Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses. The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits.
The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its [ the Dark Side's ] call, seeking a better way to finish the job.
- The Force Unleashed
The text specifically notes how brilliantly Darth Vader was fighting and how the only way Galen could beat him was giving to all the anger he had for his former master. They were equals. Starkiller dodging his master does not make him better especially given Vader's fighting style.
Basically Galen and Vader are equals.
Now of course there is the part where Galen gains clarity and beats Vader. However this isn't some one sided stomping that people make it out to be. Vader being pushed back and eventually overwhelmed does not mean Galen is miles better.
Let's look at the below passage:
"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."
Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.
"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."
The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound."
- The Force Unleashed
Nothing in here points to a stomp. People have claimed it does just because Vader was being pushed back but look at the text:
The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for.
Despite pushing him back Galen had gained no notable advantages and only finally managed to find a chink in Vader's armour right at the end. He was looking for that over the course of the duel and while it is true that the clarity he gained allowed him to push Vader it didn't magically allow him to stomp Vader.
In fact the clairty really only gave him a slight push just like when Galen used Dun Moch on Vader and the latter nearly killed him:
"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?" The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father." The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain."
- The Force Unleashed
Now that I've established the two were near equals with a slight push either way allowing the other to press them and the chink in the armour Starkiller discovered was because of the whole fight not just his clarity I'd say we can scale Vader to Starkiller.
They're equal IMO and I feel like that was what was potrayed in TFU.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Nah, it says Vader was fighting cautious which directly goes against that idea and then it specifies later that Vader is going all out.
"They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him." - The Force Unleashed II.
Actually, I never mentioned anything about Galen's rage. It wouldn't make sense to since Galen wasn't enraged at the time.
The difference being that once Galen got a measure for Vader's ability, he adjusted accordingly and was able to deal with his strength no problem. As I showed in my quotes, the same cannot be said of Vader's ability to deal with Galen's speed.
On top of that, it's very likely that Vader put more power into his initial opening blow in order to catch Galen off guard as this seems to be a common practice amongst Djem So practitioners as seen in Bane's fight with Zannah.
"Zannah expected Bane to come at her aggressively, but even so she was caught off guard by the ferociousness of his attack. He opened with a series of two-handed overhead chops, using his great height to bring his blade hacking down at her from above. She easily blocked each blow, but the momentum of the crushing impact caused her to stagger back, throwing her off balance." - Dynasty of Evil.
Not sure what you're trying to suggest here. The section you underlined simply notes that Vader fought well and only needed a single opening to kill Galen. The fact is, Galen didn't provide him with that opening and even went so far as to push Vader to his absolute limits with his own offensive, which was my point ( that's why I highlighted that portion of the text ).
I'm going to need you to substantiate that claim. Where in the text does it note that it's necessary for Galen to give in to his anger to beat Vader? Throughout the entire fight it shows Galen actively resisting the urge to draw on the Darkside.
As I've already shown, Vader is barely managing to block Galen's blows and being pushed to his limit by Galen's offensive BEFORE Galen comes to his realization that Vader is to be pitied rather then hated. After Galen comes to that realization, he utterly dominates Vader.
Gained no notable advantages? The passage you posted literally shows Galen driving Vader into full retreat and piercing his guard by slicing off parts of his cape. Vader's incapable of even disengaging with him at this point.
The problem with this idea comes when you consider the fact that Galen is capable of ragdolling Vader after achieving this clarity.
"Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued." - The Force Unleashed.
Also, your theory doesn't account for the moments in the fight where Vader was just barely manages to defend himself against Galen's offensives.
Sorry, where did you provide evidence for this being the case?
Even if everything you said had been correct ( hint: it's not ), you still wouldn't be able to scale Vader off of Starkiller since the clone is confirmed to be more powerful then his template.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 1st, 2018 at 10:20 PM
Based on what? Galen dancing around his defences? That's just Galen being his equal. Give me one instance of Galen's speed being a problem. Heck give me a quote that insinuates that. Nothing in the text does besides Galen catching Vader off guard which Vader did to Galen as well. And yes I acknowledge the context to that so the counter wasn't needed. I'll skip over it.
1. What you highlighted shows Galen was able to defend against Vader not push his offensive to it's absolute limits.
2. I cited the passage to show Vader fought well and was a relative equal to Galen.
The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.
The passage literally said here The Dark Side was what he needed to overwhelm his master and that he's resisting it and trying to find a better way to finish the fight. This implies that Galen is unable to beat Vader without calling upon his hatred for his former master.
Based on what?
Let me cite you the first part of the fight before Galen's clarity.
"Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master's belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader's helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely. They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily. The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential."
-
"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision. Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses. The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits. - The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its [ the Dark Side's ] call, seeking a better way to finish the job."
The only part here where any of what you suggested happened is the start where Vader is caught off gaurd. Vader is not barely able to block Galen's blows and in fact nothing suggests this. Vader is described as fighting brilliantly (cited before) which shows he's fighting well. If Vader was barely blocking Galen's blows surely the text would have noted it.
And as for his offensive being pushed to it's absolute limits once again it's not noted at all. Galen defending against Vader does not man his offensive was being pushed to it's absolute limits. You're deliberately exaggerating things to fabour Galen.
Vader retreating does not mean he's getting stomped lmao. And near misses are still near misses. Vader's cape is not something that is of particular value unlike his head or his arm. Vader was losing but the amount is exaggerated and Galen needed to find a chink in his armour to finish him off (something which he was looking for whole fight).
You mean a beaten and weakened Vader. Lol okay. And no your rebuttal to this was not adequate. Just because there was no blood does not mean Vader wasn't injuired especially since lightsabers should cauterize wounds.
How many times are you going to say this without proof? All you have is the opening exchange where Vader was taken by surprise.
I didn't because I thought the quote made it fairly obvious they'd both been looking for a chink in the armour for the whole fight.
"The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for."
"That both of them had been waiting for." Seems fairly self explanatory.
Also it's noted Vader was looking for a chink in the armour at the start:
"All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses. "
And Stakiller was stated to be testing his opponents defences:
"He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits."
There I'm done.
I know. I'm just establishing a baseline. I'm not going to get into TFU 2 as I don't have the energy for that lol. It get's to messy.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Last edited by HP Legend on Dec 1st, 2018 at 10:14 PM
Dec 1st, 2018 06:41 PM
