There's a difference between Sheev speaking loosely about future threats to his power (Ventress), a coup to remove him from power, or his underling taking an Apprentice of their own to overthrow him (Vader), and Sheev feeling threatened that someone could immediately draw him out to a confrontation (Like Dooku in the Plagueis Novel)- which he isn't sure he'd win.
This isn't the same as the Vader and Ventress situations.
The Jedi were at the height of their powers, in the PT era as a whole... Dooku, the really old man, was growing in strength throughout the Clone War, as was Ahsoka, Anakin, Mace, Kenobi etc. Obviously the rest of the Council aren't all prodigies, so the rate of growth wouldn't be as fast, but the fact that a man nearly on his death bed was still increasing - despite not being active on the battlefield - in power tells us that it's highly likely his younger comrades were also.
We can scale her off Fisto, Bulq and mid-TCW Kenobi + Anakin, who I'm sure you'd agree, are above a majority of the Council.
Studying his moves? Fisto's whole style is built around unpredictability, so he isn't going to be using the same exact moves against Ventress as he was against droids and X'Tings... So what did she really find out about Kit? That he uses Shii-Cho? Combatants are able to figure out the form of an opponent within the first few seconds of a fight, so her supposed 'advantage' is essentially non-existent.
Last edited by RealistRacism on Dec 6th, 2018 at 09:20 AM
Putting Asajj below Jinn means that Maul, even as of TPM, is easily above her, which is retarded. The obvious implication being; Maul's closer to Dooku than Ventress, which is hilarious.
Okay that's some crazy mental gymnastics, which my mind did not even go to. Like at all.
First of there's not much difference in the different incarnations of Maul. But TPM Maul would almost certainly be above Revenge Maul who could clearly hold his own against Ventress just fine.
Ergo Maul is above Qui-Gon and he's above Ventress and he's above Grievous (yes deal). ROTS Kenobi is also solidly above those guys, and easily =/> any version of Maul, yet he still couldn't do much against Dooku.
Fact is Dooku would most likely defeat Kenobi and Ventress together, whilst Maul can't even take ROTS Obi-Wan alone. So I see no need to get defensive over Dooku in a Qui-Gon vs Ventress thread. They are both in approx the same tier as Fisto regardless of who you put above who.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Dec 7th, 2018 at 11:58 AM
How could you possibly base Maul's superiority to Ventress on a fight like that? He was going against Kenobi for nearly the entirety of the duel... and we only have a few seconds of Asajj vs Maul to go off, so how do you reach a conclusion? You really can't. If we want to go into that, Asajj kicks Maul in the face twice and he doesn't land a single hit.
There's literally no line of scaling that indicates Jinn >/= Ventress >/= Grievous. If Asajj is in the same tier as Fisto, then he's at the bottom and she's at the top.
Last edited by RealistRacism on Dec 7th, 2018 at 12:10 PM
And who was she fighting for most that fight? Opress, to kind of a stalemate. No shame in that, as we know Opress can even take Plo Koon. But we know by the very next episode Maul > Opress. Point being even in Mauls first sword fight in over a decade, she still did not seem like she was beyond him or anything.
Well we have literally seen fights between Grievous and Ventress go back and forth. Obviously Qui-Gon is harder to pin down, but he has some hype and accolades, and I see no reason to put Ventress in another tier to him. But yeah you might be right about Ventress being top of her tier alongside Greivous.
Either way Dooku could quite comfortably take these guys double teaming him. So its got nothing to do with his placement.
She was on the losing end to Opress because of his monumental strength, which is something that Maul doesn't have. Sure, Maul knows how to undermine it - evidently better than Asajj - but there's no disputing that he doesn't share his brother's physical power and thus, can't dominate her in the same way.
This was Season 4 correct? The Maul that you claim is weak? So to top it off, Savage is probably better than him at the time of this fight, which renders your scaling useless.
Yes we have... and Grievous is always made out to be her superior. So where is Ventress >/= GG coming from?
That's fine then, but I still dispute Jinn/Fisto = Ventress.
Not many are given the accolade of being one of the best swordsmen in the order, which is on an entirely different level to, for example "greatest instructor" or whatever. How many other PT era Jedi are given such a definitive accolade? Maybe a handfull.
Sure, pretty much every Jedi frequently spars, but only the best can contend on the council level, i.e. Jinn. Dooku saw Jinn fight once and took him on as an apprentice, and Jinn would have frequently sparred with Dooku over the decades. Jinn is said to be a clear cut above Anoon Bondara, a Jedi Weaponmaster/Temple instructor who:
1. Presumably had a technical mastery of all seven forms;
2. Preferred Juyo for his personal style, the only form (IIRC) that can penetrate a perfect Soresu defence;
3. Was a master of Teräs Käsi;
4. Ambidextrous
And yet was still a clear cut below Darth Maul. Jinn on the other hand was considered by Maul as his first real challenge. As much as people want to make out how Jinn was completely and utterly inferior to Maul, you can't hide around the fact that Maul considered Jinn a real challenge, and was thrown off balance by Jinn's ability to predict his highly randomised Juyo style. A 60-year old Ataru user that can throw Maul off, even for a bit, is impressive. What's more impressive is that Jinn's skill was enough to predict and defend against Maul's offensive, with only his age and use of Ataru eventually slowing him down over time.
This flows onto the next part of your argument:
This sentence feels weird, I don't know what you're trying to prove. Ataru and Niman isn't a difficulty for Jinn (unless it's Yoda Ataru), heck, even as an Ataru specialist with no dedicated defense he was capable of being (1) definitively better than Anoon Bondara and (2) contending with Maul's Juyo and throwing Maul off with his capability of doing so. I really fail to see how Asajj's Makashi/Niman/Ataru hybrid is going to penetrate Jinn's defenses unless the fight drags on.
I highly doubt that Ventress "mastered" Ataru. Even then, Jinn would have been definitively better at it than her. And Ventress fighting a few Ataru users and using it without formal training doesn't come close to Jinn's understanding of Makashi. You know, because he was apprenticed to the Makashi king, and he frequently sparred with technical masters of the form, and Dooku himself. Anyway, sparring against a Juyo user like Anoon Bondara was probably a lot more taxing on Jinn's defences than Makashi, because he clearly knew the ins and outs of fighting against the form, whereas Juyo can be a lot more unpredictable.
Therefore, Jinn's knowledge of Makashi trashes Ventress' knowledge of Ataru easily.
Not really familiar with most of these fights, but the ones I'm familiar with weren't straight up duels to the death. I mean, if we compare a lot of the TCW duels with Ventress against Jinn and Maul's duel on Tantooine, there's a major difference in the pace. Ventress may have been able to "contend" with Kenobi and Anakin to some degree, but she always ends up running or escaping. If forced to fight either of them to the death, she would lose, so the most we can gather is that TCW Kenobi / Anakin > Ventress, not equal to them.
You're gonna have to go into more detail with the examples, I feel like there's a lot of context being ignored there. And come on, Windu >>> Ventress. Windu was the only Jedi on the council or in the order who realisticaly had a chance against Yoda in sabers, and he'd definitively crush Ventress, either with the force, or with sabers.
Cin Drallig was also a great instructor, as was Anoon Bondara, but the latter (as presumably the former if the two are somewhat equal) were below Qui-Gon in sabers.
Huh? Jinn also contended with Maul on Tantooine, and Maul was thrown off by his ability to predict Maul's movements. As for the "meditation" argument, didn't Maul also have time to gather his strength and prepare? Even then, Jinn almost killed Maul, and made him fear for his life, and that is clear cut in the book. It's not like Maul was just sitting there daydreaming, he was clearly also gathering strength and preparing. Jinn's gamble of restricting the saberstaff almost paid off, but it wasn't enough.
The only good argument you have, which I'll admit you do have, is that Ventress could *potentially* draw out the duel.
This is probably shit, so I'm probably gonna get trashed by everyone ah well.
Last edited by Meatpants on Dec 9th, 2018 at 10:03 AM
To just add to my points in a more summative matter, we know that TPM Maul > Jinn, and I haven't seen anything that shows Ventress > TPM Maul, so it isn't as clear cut.
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
The only curious thing about your post was the reliance on sparring with Dooku, and learning from the man who’s undoubtedly the best Makashi duelist we’ve seen... as if Ventress didn’t? We know Dooku spreed his Sith apprentices, and often too. Not to mention far more ruthlessly.
As for the Bondara point though, there’s always that fightsaber quote about a Juyo master having to master a handful of other forms before being able to control the form, so you’ve got that going for you which is nice.
__________________ "i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel. at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that" - Inturpid.
Dooku undoubtedly regarded Qui Gon extremely highly. We have quotes from the likes of Obi Wan who IIRC has stated that he doesn't know of anybody stronger than Qui Gon aside from Yoda or Mace as a padawan, so it is likely Dooku too thought of Qui Gon as a legitimate apprentice( kind of how Banite Sith masters view their apprentices), not a pawn like Ventress there. Also, the way their sparring is mentioned in the ROTS novel, it is a lot like how Obi Wan and Anakin sparred( i.e. thousands of hours to the point where you know the other's movements intimately).
In conjunction with everything, and how Dooku himself remarked on Qui Gon when he was the padawan and the simple observation that Dooku and Qui Gon sparred during many decades, I think meatpants has some merit to this claim.
I mean, Dooku can grill Ventress all he wants there. I don't view that grilling advancing Ventress to nearly the same degree a true master would instruct his apprentice, in a way that maximizes their learning and helps them achieve their potential. By everything we know on their interactions with each other, Dooku most likely thought of Qui Gon the same way Qui Gon thought on Obi Wan or Obi Wan on Anakin or how a Banite Sith master would view their apprentice( in the Jedi way) and trained or sparred with him likewise
Dec 6th, 2018 08:55 AM
ah well.
