If Broly is possibly stronger then Beerus, and Goku and Jiren are probably just a bit weaker, how does this 2 on 1 go?
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The only reason we have to believe that MUI and Jiren are below Beerus is the quote stating Goku is approaching the level of the Gods, which imho is obviously within the context of the movie and not referring to MUI, especially when we KNOW factually that the likes of Jiren are on par with or surpassing the level of the Gods. People also believe the quote is referring to MUI because it says Vegeta is far behind and “desperately trying to catch up,” but that was a poor translation. The accurate translation more or less states that Vegeta is right behind Goku, not vastly behind, which to me is the usual comparison of their abilities and not a comparison involving MUI, given we now know that [SPOILER - highlight to read]: MUI isn’t even in the movie, and the quote is in the context of the movie.
Beerus claims 129 MUI is possibly stronger than him, and that’s the same MUI that got thoroughly overpowered by LB Jiren, who was subsequently overpowered by a further amped MUI. Furthermore, [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Goku never states Broly is the strongest enemy he’s ever faced AFAIK, he just comments that Broly is far stronger than himself, and probably stronger than Lord Beerus.
It’s honestly next to impossible to prove with any certainty that Broly is above Jiren or MUI, so I think both of them together can handle Broly.
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No concrete evidence at this point suggests that MUI Goku is > Beerus. The only legitimate/canon evidence we have suggests the exact opposite, in fact.
And the Director's quote must have been referring to MUI, given that SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta have been most consistently portrayed as equals(in both the manga and anime.) MUI is really the only thing that puts Goku above Vegeta these days.
That said, I think MUI is really close to Beerus, but I think Beerus would ultimately nudge it out.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 19th, 2018 at 10:48 AM
I know Broly happens post ToP, but the way so much emphasis was placed on the basic god and blue transformations made it seem like this was sometime before that.
Plus Vegeta didn't even use his advanced form, did he? Just regular blue.
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Both Goku and Vegeta just used their regular SSB forms. No KK or SSBE.
Given Toriyama's direct involvement with this film, I think it was geared more toward manga continuity, tbh. That would certainly explain why those forms weren't used here -- they were mostly Toei inventions.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 18th, 2018 at 04:05 PM
The advanced forms existed in manga, though. Vegeta had that funky super blue he pulled out against Toppo, and bull rushed Jiren with. And Goku technically achieved a Super Kaioken like form, according to Whis.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
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Vegeta's boost wasn't a different transformation in the manga, though -- it was just a zenkai'd/powered-up SSB. And Goku briefly tried to stack KK on top of SSB in the manga, but quickly realized it was all but worthless in a battle because of the physical toll it took on his body.
Obviously this is a sharp contrast to the...'additions' Toei made in the anime, wherein Goku routinely stacked KKx20 on top of SSB, and Vegeta actually gained a completely new transformation in SSBE(of which made him equal to KKx20.) /shrug
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Ah, that was a zenkai boost? Thought those were done with, good to see they're very much a thing.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
No way. Even if Freeza joined in, team work can only get you so far against overwheming power. Broly isn't Kale. (Points to the movie for not mentioning Kale.)
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
As far as Broly's power goes, could he beat a fully mastered MUI that never tired out?
Trunks was stronger then Perfect Cell. Enough to one shot him, probably. He never had chance of actually tagging him.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
I mean, if Goku had infinite stamina(ala #17), then he'd ultimately win through attrition, I guess. But in a standard battle it's been proven in both the anime and manga that if you're at least close to the MUI-user's level, you can overcome its 'untouchability' factor.
USSJ Trunks was only stronger than an immensely suppressed Perfect Cell, but that's neither here nor there. Trunks couldn't hit Cell because he was bulky and slow -- Broly's speed is not hindered in any way.
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Not fanboyish at all, given the astronomical gains Broly made in this film.
In just a few hours, Broly went from Freeza-henchman-level to many, many times beyond SSB-level, and showed no real signs of slowing down. This was his first true fight ever and look what he was able to accomplish.
Jfc.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 18th, 2018 at 09:58 PM
Like Galan said, it really depends on how you take the comments made in the movie. If he's stronger then Beerus (Or any lifeform alive, like Freeza said), then that means MUI loses.
Have we ever even seen a full power, going all out Beerus?
In the manga, when the God of Destruction tourney happened, maybe. But does that apply to this movie, and to Goku's comment?
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
As mentioned, I think this movie is more rooted in manga canon -- from Vegeta using SSG(and Goku not being the least bit surprised by it), to the lack of KK and SSBE, etc. That said, the *only* time we've seen Beerus really cut loose was in the manga, when he outfought all of the other GoDs simultaneously -- and Goku witnessed that battle, so he would have it as a benchmark by which to compare Broly.
Anywho, if we take Freeza's statement from the light novel literally, then it puts Broly above FP Jiren at the very least. Don't know for sure if Freeza can sense Godly ki, but he could definitely sense Jiren's ki: https://i.imgur.com/PMve4F9.jpg https://i.imgur.com/nvYPWXx.jpg
...And remember, Freeza was referring to normal SSJ Broly's power when he claimed him the strongest in the novel(ie. this was before Broly had attained his vastly more powerful FPSSJ state.) Couple that with all of the other promo material citing Broly as the most powerful being they had ever fought(along with established DB-logic, which dictates that each new major enemy must be the most powerful), and it makes sense that FPSSJ Broly was beyond the likes of Beerus, MUI Goku, and Jiren.
Not saying it is 100% irrefutable, just that it shouldn't be a surprise for people to think Broly was operating at such a level. /shrug
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Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 19th, 2018 at 05:12 PM