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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Maul's potential


Maul's potential
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RealistRacism
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Unbowed
Sure he was. That's why he had that ridiculous dumbfounded look on his face just before Anakin chopped off his head, because he was such a good manipulator.

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Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 06:43 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism

Not that it matters, Fact Files > Witwer and Filoni.



Lmao no.

And in terms of written sources the official site > Fact files.

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 07:45 AM
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RealistRacism
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Christ, you're insufferable. Maul can be a schemer, but a blunt instrument as well. One of the quotes I posted earlier does suggest that he partakes in manipulations of his own, they're just insignificant and lacking the skill of his Master's. So clearly it's not a 'one or the other' situation. Nothing contradicts his vast inferiority to the Count and Sidious in that area I'm afraid.

And with that statement Thor, I'm going to be looking at all of the quotes made by lowly voice actors and put them higher than any source you bring up, if the occasion arises when such a thing is necessary.

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 08:16 AM
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Bentley
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Unbowed
Sure he was. That's why he had that ridiculous dumbfounded look on his face just before Anakin chopped off his head, because he was such a good manipulator.


Your random hate aside Dooku just lacked the knowledge of how close Anakin was to the dark side by the time of their fight. He was overwhelmed by defeat because he was otherwise confident that even if he lost the fight he'd still be able to rebound due to his abilities as a manipulator.

He just lacked critical information and was overconfident.


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Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 08:38 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Christ, you're insufferable. Maul can be a schemer, but a blunt instrument as well. One of the quotes I posted earlier does suggest that he partakes in manipulations of his own, they're just insignificant and lacking the skill of his Master's. So clearly it's not a 'one or the other' situation. Nothing contradicts his vast inferiority to the Count and Sidious in that area I'm afraid.




So what are your quotes supposed to be proving then? Another Maul < Dooku thread.

Mauls training clearly had much further to go before it was Cut short. Whereas Dooku had pretty much realised all his potential. And still the gap between them doesnt seem as massive as you like to make out.

But this thread is about potential. And whether TPM Maul was a placeholder like Dooku, or a legit apprentice like Skywalker.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism


And with that statement Thor, I'm going to be looking at all of the quotes made by lowly voice actors and put them higher than any source you bring up, if the occasion arises when such a thing is necessary.



Not the same. We trust that chain of discussions on Maul from Lucas to Filoni then from Filoni to Witwer.

At least pre Rebels that is, when Lucas was still the top dog.

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 09:08 AM
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RealistRacism
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This thread has obviously turned into another discussion, which isn't uncommon. What Witwer and Filoni say is just their opinion, they're not speaking on behalf of Lucas. Their words aren't Canon. Fact is, we have a source that covers both Canon and Legends, and reflects what we see on screen and in the comics; That Maul isn't a masterful schemer at all. The time we're supposed to see this skill of his, was during his commandeering of Mandalore. Let's look at it;

• First off, Maul failed at recruiting the Pirates because he and his brother were soloed by Kenobi, leaving them nearly dead in space.

• After that, he miraculously stumbles into an army of skilled warriors who save him from certain death. This army miraculously already has a Vendetta against the love interest of Maul's nemesis.

• Then he acts as the controlled opposition, taking over Satine's government with a combination of martial might and very simple planning.

• Maul kills the Leader of said army, taking the mantle of Ruler of Mandalore for himself.

• Gets stomped by Sidious, who captures him. This is simply to draw Talzin out, as later in SoD - after Talzin is killed - Maul on his own is deemed by Sidious to no longer be a threat. Even with his mini militia, Maul wouldn't be a threat to Sheev, as Grievous destroyed his army with some droids.

There are so many things just gifted to Maul by the plot to help him along, despite his failures. Real masterminds aren't given entire armies. Real masterminds don't have their forces wiped out in a single battle, whilst your unified movement splinters off into their separate organisations again because they see that you're getting your ass kicked. Maul takes everything through brute force (like a blunt instrument), or the necessary ingredients for success land in his lap. Even with all this it still backfires horribly, leaving Talzin to pick up the pieces.

In summary; Filoni's words aren't Canon, and neither are Witwer's. Maul has quotes stating he's blunt, and we've seen that he demonstrably is in a situation that was supposed to express how smart he was. Retarded character, brought back by retards thumb up

Last edited by RealistRacism on Dec 21st, 2018 at 10:07 AM

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 10:04 AM
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Darth Thor
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Urm... You do realise your interpretation of what happened isn't canon right?

Director's commentary has always been canon. What a random fact file says only goes so far, if it doesn't dictate how future writers and directors portray Maul.

What do you think is more likely, that future Maul directors/novelists listen to Filoni/Witwer, or read up on random fact files?

And as already pointed out the official site > fact files anyway. So Maul being a scheming mastermind is in fact canon, whether you want to fit the blunt thing in there on top or not is unto you, but him having been trained to be a scheming mastering, and him in fact being one is not disputable.

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 10:44 AM
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RealistRacism
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I’m so tired of repeating myself at this point. We have quotes stating he isn’t, and we know he isn’t based on the events of the Mandalore arc and SoD. It’s not my interpretation, it’s a simple recounting of events.

What relevance does future writing have? Witwer and Filoni intended to make Maul into a mastermind, but they failed miserably. And the Fact File quotes were made after the Maul episodes/commentaries...

So all you have is the official site stating something that’s contradicted multiple times by the new Fact files and the TV Program and comics. If one source says that Maul is a mastermind and another says he’s blunt (many times)... and then he goes out to set up a plan in a very blunt fashion that fails spectacularly, what do we choose? He’s demonstrably a blunt instrument and a complete failure.

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 11:36 AM
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BestDebaterEver
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism
"All sources" Being Witwer and Filoni.

Is it possible for one to be blunt and still a mastermind? Filoni and Witwer can't overwrite sources with their opinions. The video links you posted don't work, but the interview, Shadow Conspiracy, and Lockdown were all released before the Fact File quotes, so if there's an inconsistency we go with the latest material.

Not that it matters, Fact Files > Witwer and Filoni.
Yes, the people directly responsible for resurrecting and writing Maul, under the watchful guidance of Lucas himself, in addition to two different story arcs and the star wars website. And you just have a fact file you haven't even posted the full context of. Describing Maul as a blunt instrument is factually incorrect. Suggesting that one sentence out of a fact file overrides Lucas, Filoni and Witwer's statements of fact, the official Star Wars website and the primary source material - the stories themselves - is utterly autistic.

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 12:59 PM
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relentless1
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Maul died and Dooku was then chosen as a temporary apprentice until Anakin was of age, its pretty black and white and I can't really see how it could be interpreted any differently tbh

now had Maul lived and Anakin come along then Maul would be a placeholder for Anakin same as Dooku was


the ONLY placeholder spot is the Sith apprentice that came directly before the Chosen One

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 01:15 PM
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Unbowed
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bentley
Your random hate aside Dooku just lacked the knowledge of how close Anakin was to the dark side by the time of their fight. He was overwhelmed by defeat because he was otherwise confident that even if he lost the fight he'd still be able to rebound due to his abilities as a manipulator.

He just lacked critical information and was overconfident.

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I'm not talking about the fight, I'm talking about Dooku being stupid enough to believe Sidious' lies. Read Stover's novelization.

If he had a fraction of the cunning his fans claim he had he wouldn't have been completely blindsided by Sidious' betrayal.

Dooku was an arrogant moron, even more so than Maul. At least Maul had the excuse of being young. Dooku was the biggest useful idiot in the galaxy. Sidious recruited him for his family name, wealth and reputation as a Jedi, not for his "manipulation skills".

Last edited by Unbowed on Dec 21st, 2018 at 03:04 PM

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 03:00 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Realist
I’m so tired of repeating myself at this point. We have quotes stating he isn’t, and we know he isn’t based on the events of the Mandalore arc and SoD. It’s not my interpretation, it’s a simple recounting of events.



No, you are tired of people not just accepting your interpretation of events as some kind of fact.

It can't possibly be a FACT, when the directors/creators of canon see it completely differently.

FACT is something that can't be disputed (haters and trolls don't count).


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Realist
What relevance does future writing have? Witwer and Filoni intended to make Maul into a mastermind, but they failed miserably. And the Fact File quotes were made after the Maul episodes/commentaries...



Lol, does canon not dictate future writing? If not, then what the heck is canon?

No, Maul is a mastermind. You thinking him becoming the 3rd biggest power in the Galaxy in a matter of months, doesn't change the facts. The facts which are acknowledged by the official website.

You thinking Filoni failed, also doesn't prove anything. He set out his vision of a scheming mastermind, and the results (becoming a rival faction to Sidious in a matter of months) is factual.

I'll also dive into Disney canon for a sec, where Filoni had Maul beat up by anyone in a fight. And yet he was still a massive threat due to his knowledge and intellect. In his first episode He was about to take over a Sith Death Star which would have given him Ultimate Power. In the episodes after that, he did what Vader and the Empire could not - Locate Kenobi.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Realist
So all you have is the official site stating something that’s contradicted multiple times by the new Fact files and the TV Program and comics. If one source says that Maul is a mastermind and another says he’s blunt (many times)... and then he goes out to set up a plan in a very blunt fashion that fails spectacularly, what do we choose? He’s demonstrably a blunt instrument and a complete failure.



Oh jeez. They were all (Sidious's) apprentices ultimately cucks and failures. All used by Palpatine.

Doesn't mean they had no Skillz

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 05:13 PM
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Bentley
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Unbowed
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I'm not talking about the fight, I'm talking about Dooku being stupid enough to believe Sidious' lies. Read Stover's novelization.

If he had a fraction of the cunning his fans claim he had he wouldn't have been completely blindsided by Sidious' betrayal.

Dooku was an arrogant moron, even more so than Maul. At least Maul had the excuse of being young. Dooku was the biggest useful idiot in the galaxy. Sidious recruited him for his family name, wealth and reputation as a Jedi, not for his "manipulation skills".


Dooku was also using Sidious to accomplish his personal goals and tried to set up his replacement. Comparatively Maul was a dog on a leash.

Being unable to foresee betrayal because of sheer arrogance is how the dark side users tend to die.


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Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 07:36 PM
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BestDebaterEver
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Sorry, but this has just been 4 straight pages of autism. What part of the Mandalore arc and particularly SoD gave off the "dog on a leash" vibe? Per numerous sources Maul actually posed some kind of threat to the Rule of Two and was considered a "rival" by Sidious, using third party resources he put together in the space of a few months to challenge the largest military forces in the galaxy. He had a blade at Dooku and Grievous' throats.

And what did Dooku do? Capitulate as soon as Sidious yanked the leash to kill Ventress? Plot in secret to maybe perhaps one day do something about being a lapdog, only to end up dying on his knees after his delusions of grandeur were shattered?

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 08:17 PM
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RealistRacism
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Considered a 'rival' as in 'not on his side anymore.' The capturing of Dooku and Grievous and all the events of SoD were Talzin's doing. Maul never challenged one of the largest forces at all, he was hopelessly outnumbered by a fraction of the CIS army, got stomped and was forced to flee.

He traded one master for another, and became Talzin's lapdog. Your responses show a complete disregard for facts and evidence, and it's truly sad that you've allowed yourself to white-knight for a character who's so beneath you. Come to terms with this; Maul is blunt and a failure.

Last edited by RealistRacism on Dec 21st, 2018 at 09:11 PM

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 09:08 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Yes, the people directly responsible for resurrecting and writing Maul, under the watchful guidance of Lucas himself, in addition to two different story arcs and the star wars website. And you just have a fact file you haven't even posted the full context of. Describing Maul as a blunt instrument is factually incorrect. Suggesting that one sentence out of a fact file overrides Lucas, Filoni and Witwer's statements of fact, the official Star Wars website and the primary source material - the stories themselves - is utterly autistic.

No. Lucas hasn't endorsed Filoni and Witwer's words. Even if that's the case, Disney has overwritten that and the Fact Files are indeed a reflection of how they view Maul. Since Legends material is referenced as actually happening, Maul has been and will be from this point forward, a blunt instrument.

Lucas' words are irrelevant if they've been overwritten, as is the case here. Disney can do as they please now, George isn't in control. G-Canon now exists in the sense that they try to stay within the parameters he set, but Disney haven't here.

Last edited by RealistRacism on Dec 21st, 2018 at 10:24 PM

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 10:22 PM
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RealistRacism
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@Thor

There's next to nothing of substance in your post, so it does not warrant any large response. Maul took over two crime syndicates and was gifted an army + another organisation. And without the help of said army, he wouldn't have been able to take over the Hutts. He was the third biggest superpower (maybe) but got decimated in one battle by the biggest. Multiply his army by thousands or even millions, and he still wouldn't be able to touch the Republic or the CIS.

He and his militia never rivalled Sidious. Maul became a rival in the sense that he wasn't on Sidious' side anymore, Talzin was always deemed the real threat.

Old Post Dec 21st, 2018 10:37 PM
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