Judges, public vote or whatever can be decided on later down the track.
Let's keep it simple to start off with. I won't be dumping many, if any, feats or accolades, I'll just refer to the important ones and dump them down later when we get more into specifics. For now I'll just present a handful of paragraphs that open up my arguments, and we'll go on from there.
The best way to establish the foundation of where Traya is at power-wise is to demonstrate her relative parity to Meetra Surik. By the end of Kotor 2, Surik is an insanely powerful combatant. Even very early on into her journey while she was still regrowing her strength in the Force and before she had even built a lightsaber, she defeated Visas Marr in one-on-one combat. Marr was Nihilus' shadow hand (i.e. apprentice), and therefore stronger than any other Sith in the triumvirate apart from Sion and Nihilus himself. These include converted Jedi and Battlemasters, who are attributed as "experts in more melee styles than most beings know exist." The Jedi and Sith of this era were highly trained for combat with each other, and are suggested as being at some sort of parity in overall combat effectiveness, if not arguably greater, than the PT era Jedi Order. This is quite early on in Surik's growth back into the force as well. Her growth in power from then on is exponential, to the point where she fights through the Malachor temple full of the deadliest Sith assassins and Battlemasters, then fights Traya on a DS Nexus whilst the whole time being simultaneously pulled apart from the planet itself. Oh, and many of the Sith she has to face in the academy had to have killed a minimum of ten Jedi to receive their rank and Tremor sword, called masterblades. Traya is stated to be more powerful than Surik, but lost due to her former apprentices' combat prowess. Even Mandalore says toward the end of Kotor 2 that he thought Revan was a one man army until he met Surik and battled with her, hence placing Surik at a parity with Jedi Knight Revan, who is > SF Malak, which could also arguably mean that Traya could potentially be > Exar Kun, but that's a relatively long and arguable chain. The point here is that Canderous believed there was a parity with Revan and Surik in combat prowess.
In terms of Force feats, Traya just outclasses Tyrannus definitively. Some of her cooler and badass feats include being able to teleport, TK'ing Jedi Master Zez-Kai Ell without even gesturing, manhandling Hanharr, ragdolling Visas Marr and Surik's other companions with ease, completely dominating the Jedi Masters Surik brings to Dantooine and draining them all of the Force simultaneously, ragdolling Darth Sion, killing a dozen or more deadly Sith Assassins of Revan's teachings in one attack, hiding her presence from the Jedi Council, overriding the dozens of Sith holocrons at Telos to attack Surik from across the galaxy (while admittedly on a DS nexus) etc.
Traya's combat abilities are not to be trifled with either. It's implied that she gained leadership of Revan's converted Jedi and Sith by the blade, and could arguably mean she was the most skilled of all the Sith in lightsaber combat. Traya also admits to Surik on Malachor that she was Traya's equal in lightsaber dueling; and as established above, Surik is ridiculously skilled in this area. This suggests that Traya, according to Canderous' potential scaling, could mean that Traya is >/= Jedi Knight Revan in lightsaber combat.
Traya also has incredible sense and foresight, and potentially possesses Shatterpoint. Another more generalised feat is mindtricking the council. IIRC the DE sourcebook describes such feats as astronomical, or something along those lines.
Your move
Last edited by Meatpants on Dec 20th, 2018 at 12:58 PM
Will respond within the next few hours. Nice opener MP.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
All 3 of you are now judges. We'll probably make it 5 judges so just 2 more are required.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Last edited by HP Legend on Dec 20th, 2018 at 05:37 PM
You want to judge? Sure okay. Guess that's 4 then.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Apologies for any poor formatting as I'm still not used to formatting here.
Dooku vs Traya
Alright so I'm to start off by establishing a relatively solid case as to why I believe Dooku is superior in terms of force power to Traya.
First off we have an indisputable scaling chain which puts Dooku above Nyriss:
During AOTC Dooku would fend off the attacks of Master Yoda for a full minute and 20 seconds before retreating and while it's true he was losing he still managed to last a decent bit of time (link) and even pressures the latter with his Force Lightning at the start of the fight.
"Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily."
-Attack of the Clones Novelization
By contrast Nyriss's force lightning gets casually blocked by Revan who then proceeds to one shot her. Please note that was after years of being injected by Force hindering drugs and torture which makes things worse for Nyriss.
"A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss’s hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.
Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.
“I am Revan reborn,” he said to Nyriss. “And before me you are nothing.”
Nyriss’s eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan
Now of course as you all are aware Yoda is labelled as the most powerful Jedi in the order and also has feats and scaling which put Revan to shame.
"The greatest Jedi: Yoda, defender of the galaxy, master of the Force, and the greatest Jedi who had ever lived."
—Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda
&
"This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... "
-Revenge of the Sith Novelization
So now we have established that Dooku is indeed more powerful than Nyriss let's look at Nyriss's fight with The Jedi Exile:
"A burst of purple lightning arched down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks...
She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.
Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive.
Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even think about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust forced him off balance and he staggered backward.
Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra’s defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.
In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest.
An ordinary foe would have been thrown clear across the room, but Nyriss instinctively threw up a Force barrier to protect herself, absorbing and redirecting the brunt of the impact. Even so, Scourge’s attack knocked her off balance just enough to send her lightsaber wide of the mark, giving Meetra the opportunity she needed to scramble away to safety.
Scourge rushed forward, hoping to drive Nyriss back into a corner, but she met his charge with an invisible wave of rippling energy. It picked Scourge up and tossed him head-over-heels, sending him crashing to the wall.
Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.
'Did you think I would be as easy to defeat as Xedrix?' Nyriss shouted, raising her lightsaber triumphantly above her head.
The air around her began to crackle and grow hot as she gathered herself for the killing blow. Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong.
'Gaze upon me and see your doom!” she declared. “I am Darth Nyriss, Lord of the Sith. I am the conqueror of Drezzi, the destroyer of Melldia, and a member of the Dark Council!'
Scourge braced himself for the end."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan
As you can see here Nyriss overwhelms both the Jedi Exile and Scourge and would have killed them if not for Revan's intervention.
And of course the Jedi Exile defeated Traya at the end of KOTOR 2 after having fought through an army of Sith assasins (link).
So we have Dooku>Nyriss>The Exile>Traya.
To address some of your points:
Counters
Now this would be great if you could actually scale Traya to The Exile which you can't because the latter killed her while on a Dark Side Nexus after depleting her Force Reserves while fighting through an army of Sith assasins which you actually made note of here. There is no way to scale any of Meetra's showings to Traya because they're not comparable in the slightest.
The next part of your post is fine and I don't take particular issue with it so I'll just leave it for now as I don't feel the need to bring up comparable showings for The Count as he already scales above Traya as established.
Traya isn't equal to Surik lmao. As you said before Traya was more powerful than Meetra in their final confrontation which would mean Meetra would have to be etter as a lightsaber combatant to win. And given Traya was her equal early/mid game it's not really that surprising Meetra surpassed her.
The paragraph after this is fine.
So overall as I've established scaling Meetra's showings to Traya is faulty and Dooku is more powerful than Traya. While Traya is powerful she simply isn't a match for The Count.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Just realised there's quite a few typos in my post which I can't edit because of KMC's editing system. Oh well.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Dec 20th, 2018 06:20 AM
