Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force confirmed they weren't the same. Furthermore, Sheev himself confirms that all the Sith holocrons in the Jedi Library were ellaborate forgeries. Welcome to half a decade ago.
The worst part is that you think this is new whilst literally everyone else already knows about this.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Last edited by AncientPower on Feb 3rd, 2019 at 02:15 AM
Yeah no. The quote you posted came out before Vitiate's creation so using that as an argument is incredibly disengenuous. Furthermore I love how you readily dismiss the Makak quote as having dozens of interpretations and calling it vague despite the quote you posting being even more vague (not that the Malak quote is actually vague). The word "darkest" could mean a great many things and might not even have anything to do with the Force. In fact OBM already made a thread about why Kun isn't the darkest power in the galaxy (if we take it to mean strength in the Force) which I know you've read and so far have not bothered to debunk.
And? Vitiate made his holocron when he was 10 years old for **** sake. This attempt at scaling is laughable. Congratulations AP you've successfully placed Kun above a 10 year old Vitiate.
This is me going under the assumption that holocron scaling is reliable as well which it isn't given if we took it as legit it would place 10 year old Vitiate above Darth Bane.
Yeah btw this is all going under the premise that Kun is stronger than MW Vitiate which he's not.
As for Kun having better feats that's up for debate but you'd have to succesfully prove Kun isn't below Malak in order for it to be viable.
Sorry AP I know you want Kun to be a top tier alongside Yoda and Sidious but no one sees him that way anymore. You may as well give up and accept his current placement (which isn't even that low anyway).
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Last edited by HP Legend on Feb 4th, 2019 at 11:35 PM
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Stop trying to claim retcon by time logic. That's not how it works. It's never been how it works. A quote isn't made any less viable by newer sources unless there is a direct contradiction. Ant's DeAgostini debunk regarding Windu and Revan is the exception, not the rule. I would've thought the Sheevites would remember this argument considering my stance is precisely the one you all took when people made the same argument regarding Sheev's supremacy quotes. What a wonderful selective memory you all have.
Leland Chee has made it emphatically clear that a retcon is the last resort taken, and that only occurs when a direct contradiction is made betwen sources. There is nothing contradicting the source material stating that he's the strongest. Your attemots to dismiss it are completely baseless.
LMFAO. Hold up, so when the Malak quote doesn't even mention the Force, it isn't vague at all. But when Kun's darkest power quote literally clarifies it refers to strength, it's vague. You are actually laughable.
I more than read OBM's argument, and it fell in on itself before it got to a 100 words.
Tenebrae didn't create it at all, that was Dramath. What Tenebrae did was corrupt the device and transform it into a weapon that could enhance the weilders power and destroy entities. The fact that it was measurable in any way to Tenebrae during his death indicates that the item itself outweighed Tenebrae's own power massively at the time he manipulated it.
I see that line as Tenebrae simply having a far greater natural aptitude for the scope of alchemies/sorceries than Bane had. Bane wasn't weaker than Zannah yet her esoterical abilities dwarfed Bane's.
Exar Kun per this quote was already the most powerful dark-sider in the galaxy at the time. Obtaining the holocron allowed him to fulfil his power growth far faster until he reached full potential. So Prime Exar Kun >> pre-prime Exar Kun > Pre-MW!Vitiate, add to that fact that the relevant Star Forge quote clarifies Vitiate's a far greater threat. Then they essentially overlap and render moot any kind of timeline discrepancies you're attempting to find.
No one has proven the quote is absolute. Not even at my invitation. So no, not really.
I don't need to want him when his feats prove he is up there with Yoda.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
1. Yeah sure normally I don't agree with retcon by time logic but let's look at your argument for a sec:
You're trying to argue that a quote which places Kun above a character that hadn't even been created retcons a previous source that is perfectly clear as to its meaning.
2. This is a faulty comparison as Sheev's supremacy quotes were created to place him as the best regardless of who was created later. He was intended to be the ultimate evil. This quote accidentally puts Kun above Vitiate as the writers had no idea that he was going to be created.
3. I'm not one of the Sheevites lol. What a wonderful non existent memory you have.
Not to mention this quote doesn't even prove Kun>Vitiate as it's meaning is rather vague.
Yeah and in this case there is a contradiction between two sources.
One of them says Malak>Kun and the other said Kun>Vitiate>SF Malak and given this contradiction you would obviously take the source which takes Malak>Kun as when the second source was released Vitiate hadn't been created.
One of them is a direct compairson between 2 characters and the other is a source which accidentally puts Kun above Malak via scaling from a character that hadn't been created at the time of its release.
I wonder which is more reliable...
Where does it say it's referring to strength? Here is the quote:
Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.
If we were to take the word "darkest" to mean most evil for example it would read like this:
Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the most evil power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.
As you can blatantly see there isn't anything grammatically incorrect about interpreting it as most evil for example. Just because it says the word strength at the end of the sentence that doesn't mean the word "darkest" was referring to strength.
Meanwhile the Malak quote literally says he has powers far greater than Kun's which is pretty self explanatory as to its meaning. You're trying to look for alternative meanings to a quote that simplistic.
Also the hositlity here is kinda unwarranted and really puts me off from writing responses as I don't really want to waste my time writing a post only to get attacked for it. I mean this forum is kinda dead and I'm trying to give myself something to do and at least give you someone to respond to give literally no one on this forum really wants to discuss anything with you.
You know what I meant when I said he created it.
Also it being able to imprison Tenebrae's spirit doesn't mean its power is comparable to his as its purpose is literally to imprison spirits lmao.
Not to mention all this does is place Kun above a 10 year old Vitiate.
Eh this is fair.
I mean the timeline discrepancies are relevant in this instance given the other evidence. Normally I'd agree we take a quote regardless of when it was made.
Except for Ant.
Yoda>Revan>SF Malak>Kun.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Except it isn't 'clear' at all. No one, has been able to prove my assertions false.
Sheev's supremacy quotes are actually the only reason Kun isn't still considered the canonically most powerful Sith too. In fact, one of Kun's greatest quotes already debunks it. TCSWE states this:
Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.
And this is meant to mean, he was once the most powerful Sith until Sheev came along. Which completely defecates on Malak who has his own part in the Encyclopedia.
It's the furthest thing from vague.
The release of new characters doesn't exempt them from pre-existing canonical, objective sources. What's worse is I'm still not seeing any argument as to why the Malak quote isn't interpretable.
In Canon, nothing is an accident unless it gets directly rebutted.
I'd probably go with the original source material as it is supreme.
Because the sentence literally explains that he's going to get even stronger in the Force than that via a holocron which happens to be the most powerful in the mythos. It's obviously referring to the Force.
That's exactly what it's saying, it clearly refers to him getting even more powerful via the hllocron, which Jedi VS. Sith confirms he did.
Except it isn't at all, the quote says this:
He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?
Do you understand that not only does it not refer to the Force anywhere here; in fact it references something else entirely, but the sentence immediately prior makes it redundant via your logic?
An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies.
It's a list of things in a biography describing who Malak is. It doesn't make any sense at all reading it the way you are. It's also emphatically clear that Herndon understands that "Force power" and "powers" are very different statements.
What's worse for your argument is that everything to do with the blog is based on translating his abilities from the OG KOTOR into the RPG. One of the most important facets of his character is the plot-point revealed on the Star Forge prior to battling him. He has powers that allow him to feed on corrupted Jedi essences to increase his power as well as draining their life source to renew his own. Herndon can't say this outright because he goes out of his way not to spoil the game. Hence why he doesn't actually reference the Star Forge anywhere.
That's meant to be the major unique character trait for him in the RPG. That's the big secret. That's what gives him far greater powers than Nadd or Kun, he manufactured the Star Forge to allow him to do what he otherwise doesn't have the capability for. Two very difficult variants of Force drain.
The "other evidence" is far from the most reliable source. Unless you're okay with Lucien Draay; and everyone in the KotOR era who scales from him, giving prime Vader at the very least a good fight. As well as Bastila Shan; and everyone in KotOR who scales from her, being the equal of Count Dooku and Obi-Wan Kenobi:
While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.
She's clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.
He does not debate on the subject, of his own volition.
Exar Kun >> Spirit!Kun > Kyp & Luke > Yoda > Revan > SF!Malak
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Will hopefully respond tomorrow though I have an essay to write so I may not get down to it.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Feb 2nd, 2019 07:49 PM
