Glad you admit Yoda is a more powerful Force User.
Given all available evidence, Yoda is superior to Sidious in both sabers and Force Power and only lost due to environmental disadvantages. As for Mace never defeated Sidious in any sense of the word. Yeah sure he disarmed Sidious (whether or not Sidious let him is up for debate but I won't get too much into that now) however it's clear Sidious was still holding him off with Lightning and was on the verge of overpowering him before he pretended to be weak and powerless.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
“You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor” - George Lucas.
That suggests either one is capable of defeating him. So the fact that Mace won in 1 particular fight, and Yoda lost in another, should not be used to suggest Mace > Yoda (even against Sidious). Especially when multiple people involved in the films plus movie dialogue made it clear that Mace was under Yoda in both Force power and as a Saber combatant.
Not sure if I am correct, but this Lucas' line was an answer to Knoll's "Look at this - Mace brought the B-team!".
So it might be indeed treat as a statement that is about equality between Sidious and Yoda / Mace, but it as well may just means that both, Yoda and Mace are on mych higher level then any member of B-team or any Jedi overall. And that they can compete with him, hold their own, but in the end, they are not able to defeat him. Or just one of them.
Just like both, Anakin and Obi-Wan could compete with Dooku, as none of them was blitzed by him. But could Obi-Wan defeat him in a single duel? That's debatable.
Registered: Feb 2013
Location: On my lawn chair drinkin a beer
Gillard doesn't disagree - Gillard stated Mace was second to Yoda at the beginning of the Clone Wars - not at the end of the Clone Wars when Mace has become more powerful and Yoda's equal.
You should pay attention to which movie-timelines you're pulling quotes from:
Nick Gillard : ''We didn't see Mace fighting yet, but we know that he is second only to Yoda...'' Source: Star Wars Episode II: Action Featurette
Later in the Clone Wars, Mace becomes Yoda's equal:
''Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.'' Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
And of course Lucas doesn't disagree, either:
“You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor” - George Lucas.
I consider Yoda to have slightly stronger TK.
But Star Wars says Mace and Yoda are virtually equals:
''A respected Jedi with powers on a par with those venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council, and his wisdom and judgement were legendary.'' Source: Star Wars Fact File Remake #008
And so do I:
Superior?
Yoda and Sidious stalemated.
Mace and Sidious didn't stalemate - Mace beat Sidious.
(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
Sidious was getting killed: (please log in to view the image)
Go clean your glasses.
__________________ Asking about which Jedi or Sith that can defeat Darth Nihilus is like asking about which one of the X-Men can defeat Galactus.
Not what I was referring to. I was talking about Mace being "an 8 bordering on a 9" on Gillard and Lucas's tiering system compared to Yoda being a 9. It's clear both Gillard and Lucas view Mace as inferior to Yoda in Lightsaber combat. For Force Power, I'll elaborate in a bit.
Or alternatively, you shouldn't baselessly assume which quotes I'm referring to.
Kek. The quote you brought up is referring to Count Dooku being Mace's equal on neutral ground, not Yoda:
As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.
-Yoda: Dark Rendevous
The fact that Mace can compete with Sidious doesn't preclude him from being below Yoda.
The quote you referenced is in-universe making it more subject to scrutiny and if Yoda is blatantly portrayed as more powerful in other material the quote should be dismissed. Not that Fact File quotes even overrule G-Canon evidence anyway.
Well yes I'd say so given according to Gillard and Lucas Yoda is a better saber duellist and there's a comparison between the two in Force Power which clearly demonstrates Yoda is more powerful.
Because of environmental and other circumstantial factors beyond the control of the former as I've explained already in this thread. Yoda proved he was better when he overpowered Sidious in multiple blade locks, pushed him back in sabers, disarmed him and nearly overpowered him in two seperate Force clashes.
Yeah Lucas disagrees:
"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."
-Revenge of the Sith Commentary
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Last edited by HP Legend on May 2nd, 2019 at 11:32 PM
Registered: Feb 2013
Location: On my lawn chair drinkin a beer
No, they don't.
As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine[out of ten].On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious. The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:
Ultimately Gillard decided Mace and Yoda are both 9s and that Mace is equal with Sidious.
So does George Lucas:
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor." --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204
Or alternatively, you should still pay attention to where you're pulling your quotes from since you weren't aware of Gillard's final-judgement on Mace's tier-level as being a 9 and equal to Darth Sidious.
Kek - actually the quote I brought up implies that Dooku knew that he and Mace were on Yoda's level - implying that Yoda and Mace are also equals.
And Yoda: Dark Rendezvous takes place 19BBY - the very same year that Mace Windu defeats Sidious in combat and Yoda loses to Sidious. (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
Nick Gillard and George Lucas disagree with you:
As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine[out of ten].On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious. The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor." --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204
The Fact-File had George Lucas's blessing - and even George Lucas agrees that Mace and Yoda are equals.
Really? Let's review what they have to say on the matter:
As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine[out of ten].On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious. The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor." --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204
Nope, according to Gillard and Lucas, Yoda is not the better saber duelist and in fact Yoda and Mace are both equals.
__________________ Asking about which Jedi or Sith that can defeat Darth Nihilus is like asking about which one of the X-Men can defeat Galactus.
Registered: Feb 2013
Location: On my lawn chair drinkin a beer
Yeah - and Mace did all the same things - only difference is - Mace didn't get ragdolled like Yoda did. (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
And here's the additional George Lucas commentary that clears up the murkiness of the previous one:
"The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness. You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204
So according to Nick Gillard and George Lucas, Palpatine didn't throw the fight - Mace won and Yoda and Mace ARE equals.
HP, would you like some mayonnaise with that foot in your mouth? I can give you some of my mayonnaise - and it's non-dairy!
__________________ Asking about which Jedi or Sith that can defeat Darth Nihilus is like asking about which one of the X-Men can defeat Galactus.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Gillard didn't decide anything. He originally said Mace was a 9 sure but later clarified Mace was an 8 bordering on a 9 as I already said. He's nearly a 9 and is thus up there with Sidious though he isn't equal with him or Yoda.
Side Note: The fact that Mace, Yoda, and Sidious are on the same tier (if I acknowledge Mace is a 9 even though he isn't) in terms of Lightsaber prowess does not make them equals.
Also, I don't necessarily need the tiering system to put Yoda above Mace given there's already a comparison which puts Yoda ahead of him in sabers anyway. Mace fought Sheev to a standstill and was at an "impasse" with him for a solid minute and only won through using Sheev's fear against him while Yoda legitimately disarmed Sidious in under a minute.
For the last time, Lucas saying both Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious does not make them equals. It only suggests their on a similar level in terms of fighting prowess which is a notion I never contested.
Or alternatively, you should learn to read.
No, it doesn't. For starters, the quote you brought up is from Yoda's perspective not Dooku's. Secondly I'm not sure where you're getting the idea from that it says Dooku and Mace are on Yoda's level.
Here is the quote:
As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.
-Yoda: Dark Rendevous
It clearly says that Mace and Dooku are equals and doesn't make a single mention of Yoda being relative to either. Please underline where it implies Mace=Yoda.
1. Irrelevant detail I already knew where the quote was from.
2. Lol, imagine ignoring all context to both scenarios. I'm not even going to bother going over it again because it's a waste of time. Just read my previous posts in the thread.
Gonna skip over most of the irrelevant stuff where you bring up the same two statements again to avoid repetition and making these posts longer than they need to be.
Proof it had George's blessing? Regardless it's still in-universe and subject to scrutiny.
1. Mace never overpowered Sidious in a blade lock.
2. Mace did not push Sheev back in sabers. They were at an "impasse" before Mace used Sheev's fear against him. He didn't overpower Sheev through superior technical skill or Force Power.
3. The final Force Clash is brought up again at the end of your post. I'll go over it then.
This doesn't clear anything up. The quote regarding them competing with Sidious has been addressed and the start of the quote doesn't prove your point. It says Mace was winning when Anakin arrived which is a no brainer given Sidious was disarmed and on the floor. However, Sidious recovers with a blast of Lightning and was about to overpower Mace per the novelization before he feigned weakness so he could complete Anakin's fall as George said in both my quote and the quote you provided:
"The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness. You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
-George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204
This to tie back into my original point is in direct contrast to how Yoda was overpowering Sidious in both their Force Clashes.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
To be honest, it could just mean Palpatine lost, but he could have fought from there on, but chose not to.
That does not mean Palpatine was not bested. It just means he still had enough power to carry on the fight.
But then, these ranking systems s***k anyways.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Registered: Feb 2013
Location: On my lawn chair drinkin a beer
As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine[out of ten].On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious. The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor." --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204
Yeah, their tiering system doesn't say otherwise - their tiering system says Mace and Yoda are equals.
Gillard ultimately decided that Mace is a 9: As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine[out of ten].On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious. The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:
Gillard says you are wrong.
Also, your opinion means nothing.
And show me where "Yoda legitimately disarmed Sidious in under a minute."
Mace overpowered Sidious in a blade lock - successfully re-directed his Lightning and had him beaten - while Yoda got sent flying like a ragdoll.
That makes them equals - duh.
Or alternatively, you should learn to read, since you weren't aware of Gillard's final-judgement on Mace's tier-level as being a 9 and equal to Darth Sidious.
We already know Mace is relative to Yoda, since Mace beats Sidious - whereas Yoda can't.
Dooku says that Mace is equal to him, and Dooku was already shown to be equal to Yoda as a swordsman in AotC.
So if Dooku is equal to Yoda in speed, and Mace is at least equal to Yoda in speed, if not greater, then they are equals.
I could skip over your entire response - since it's pretty much gibberish.
It's already obvious that with Vapaad, Mace and Yoda are equals - you're so rusty with your Star Wars Lore that you didn't even know that Mace overpowers Sidious during their duel.
__________________ Asking about which Jedi or Sith that can defeat Darth Nihilus is like asking about which one of the X-Men can defeat Galactus.
Registered: Feb 2013
Location: On my lawn chair drinkin a beer
If it's in Canon, it has George Lucas's blessing.
1:00 to 1:10
Mace Windu overpowers Darth Sidious in a blade lock.
Wow, HP you are clueless.
Nah - your assertion is that Sidious threw the whole fight.
Now you're admitting Mace disarmed Sidious and had him beaten on the floor.
- Now you're trying to say that Sidious was deliberately having lethal-amounts of Lightning bounced back into his face.
Vapaad already exists for that technique to occur - Sidious getting hit with lethal amounts of Lightning that could kill him wasn't part of the plan - unless you can prove Sidious knew about Vapaad.
Sidious was dying (lethal Lightning) - he just wanted Anakin to intervene.
So Mace with Vapaad is equal to (or greater) than Yoda.
And Mace did indeed defeat Sidious.
Yoda tried to overpower Sidious with the Force and got ragdolled. (please log in to view the image)
Mace successfully overpowered Sidious with the Force and was killing him. (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
__________________ Asking about which Jedi or Sith that can defeat Darth Nihilus is like asking about which one of the X-Men can defeat Galactus.
Apparently simply re-posting your original claim is legitimate evidence...
I'll get down to addressing this next weekend. I don't have the time or energy right now.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
No, this is ridiculous. It is a matchup or style issue with the terrain being different. Anakin was more powerful than Kenobi yet still lost. Quit trying to headcanon the facts away so you deal with reality.
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
Only the biased think they are not equals in force power. Winning a fight is not always proof of superior power just superior fighting ability in that particular situation.
Been working on other posts. I'll get down to a response sometime during the week.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Finally got down to responding. This might be my last response on the topic as well because quite frankly I've lost any enthusiasm I had during this debate and I'd rather spend my time doing other things. Anyway enjoy:
Mace and Yoda being on the same tier doesn't make them equals. For example, Jinn and Kenobi circa TPM are stated to be on the same tier yet we can clearly see based on their performances against Maul that they aren't equals. The same holds true for Yoda and Sidious.
Gillard said this in 2008 yet clarified in 2017 that Mace was an 8 bordering on a 9. If you treat the statements as contradictory then the later one takes precedence which would be my quote. So no Mace isn't on Yoda's tier.
It's referenced in both the ROTS Script and Junior Novelization.
1. Mace didn't overpower Sidious in a bladelock. He pushed Sidious's blade downwards while the latter was in a poor position. Sidious recovered and actually matched Mace's augmentative strength.
2. Mace's attempt to re-direct Sidious's Lightning wasn't a smashing success. He strained massively to do and was on the verge of getting overpowered per the novelization and comic.
3. Yoda got sent flying because their power overloaded. Before this however, Yoda was clearly beginning to get the better of Sidious.
Entirely unsubstantiated. The fact that they can both keep up with Sidious does not make them equals given that we can clearly see one of them (Windu) is Sidious's combative inferior and that the other (Yoda) is Sidious's combative superior.
Utter nonsense as I previously explained.
The quote is from Yoda's POV for starters not, Dooku's. Secondly, Dooku isn't equal to Yoda in AOTC. Dooku gets stonewalled by Yoda, pushed back and then retreats. Not to mention the quote in question suggests Dooku is potentially better than Windu by noting that Windu is "perhaps" equal to Dooku. The "perhaps" in the sentence indicates uncertainty of Windu is equal to Dooku implying Dooku's superiority.
Lucas doesn't even know like anything about the EU or Fact Files lmao. It being canon doesn't mean it has Lucas's blessing. Regardless it's still an IU quote and subject to scrutiny as I previously stated.
Addressed previously in my post.
When did I ever say this? My original quote was this:
"Yeah sure he disarmed Sidious (whether or not Sidious let him is up for debate but I won't get too much into that now) however it's clear Sidious was still holding him off with Lightning and was on the verge of overpowering him before he pretended to be weak and powerless."
I said whether or not he legitimately disarmed Sidious is up for debate and there isn't conclusive evidence either way. My claim with concrete proof is that Sidious feigned weakness in the Lightning clash which is corroborated by Lucas himself as you've so kindly quoted. Not to use your own words: "go clean your glasses".
I never said that Sidious getting hit by lethal Lightning was part of the plan. I said that Sidious was on the verge of overpowering Mace (corroborated by two sources) and feigned weakness to the Lightning to get Anakin to join the Dark Side.
Addressed and debunked.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Last edited by HP Legend on Jun 23rd, 2019 at 10:43 PM
May 2nd, 2019 04:42 PM
