Cool to see Luke rather casually handling at least nine training remotes. I'm glad we're still getting glimpses of Luke's intensive training. We've not really seen any other Jedi from the Prequels training against more than one remote at a time, much less nine.
So Luke has finally come to the realization that if he is to defeat Vader, he needs additional Jedi training... So I'm curious what he learns from Yoda's holocron.
Also digging the Jedi garb he's wearing in those covers.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
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The comics make it clear that Luke's power has passively grown by a considerable margin since ESB. And that's with no real training to speak of. So the "lesson" might give him that extra nudge he needs to reach Vaders level.
That's what I'm saying. As of the latest issue Luke still fears Vader and knows he cannot beat him in another confrontation..And we have to be VERY close to the events of ROTJ at this point.
So whatever lesson Luke learns in these issues will need to give him a helluva boost to make him Vader's equal.
The fact Sidious could outright ragdoll Vader is ****ing monstrous.
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Especially when new canon has consistently shown Vader himself to be an absolute BEAST with virtually no low showings across all media. That in itself is extremely rare.
The "conflicted" argument doesn't hold as much water in canon as it did in Legends. Beware the Power of the Dark Side pretty much explicitly spells out that Vader is fueled by hatred during that fight, and eventually draws "additional strength" from fear once Luke snaps.
Besides, it's always been just as easy to argue that Luke is equally conflicted, if not more conflicted ("I will not fight you," "I can't kill my own father," "I will not fight, and you'll be forced to kill me," ect). The fact is, it was always George Lucas's intent for RotJ Luke to be Vader's equal. It's even just outright stated in the RotJ script. Does it cause weird inconsistencies? Definitely. But that's just how Star Wars is.
In Beware the Power of the Dark Side, Vader had to fight the urge to immediately slaughter Luke out of hatred, when they first encountered one another:
"There he is! Defenseless. No visible weapon. Dressed in black cloth, no armor. Ah, yes, the boy has two hands again. But the hands are bound. Vader could end all this right now. He could strike Luke down and be done--if not for his master's orders. He certainly feels enough hate to do it."
Moreover, during Luke's initial "I can feel the good in you. The conflict..." speech on the moon of Endor, the novel explicitly states that Vader was able to immerse himself in the dark side to suppress any emotional conflict he might've been experiencing at the time:
"The dark side is strong. Vader uses it to close off the questions, the memories, the hopes. The dark truths are true again."
And during their actual fight, the novel further notes that Vader was fueling himself with hatred(and later fear) the entire time:
"He blocks attack after attack but is pushed back farther each time. Always fueled by hatred, he now gathers additional strength from fear..."
...And this also aligns with what we are learning about Vader's current mentality in the comics(which are likely set just a few months before RotJ at this point): He fears Luke. He hates Luke. He wants Luke dead.
tl;dr
As of now, new canon hasn't really indicated that Vader's abilities were gimped as a result of his inner/suppressed conflict during RotJ. Quite the opposite, actually.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Oct 16th, 2021 at 02:51 AM
I mean neither Lucas canon, Legends or Disney Canon can change the film. The film where Luke senses Vaders conflict during the fight. And even Palpatine suspects that conflict earlier on in the film.
Lukes conflict was to a much lesser extent though. Because Luke wasnt conflicted over which side he should be on. He was certain he wanted to be a Jedi and protect the Rebellion. Otherwise yeah, in terms of fighting each other, both were holding back to an extent.
There also is evidence in Disney canon to suggest Vader was conflicted over Luke.
Also if you want to bring up George Lucas intent, no point in doing so without bringing up that he makes clear in the ROTJ commentary (scene where Luke vists Yoda), that Luke hasnt had enough training to rival Vader.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Oct 16th, 2021 at 01:24 PM
Honestly I dont get whats to argue here. Vader was conflicted. Obviously. Thats why he turned.
I also dont see the need to make Luke equal to Peak Vader so early on. We have Mandalorian Luke now and Sequel Luke. He had plenty of time to surpass Vader later. So why does he need to be equal to Peak Vader at the time of ROTJ?
Also dont get the logic of how a newly Knighted Luke would be equal to Peak Vader with his decades of mastery. Unless Luke has vastly higher potential than Vader.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Oct 16th, 2021 at 01:32 PM
I don't think anyone is saying that Vader wasn't conflicted to some extent. Luke sensed it in the film, and Palpatine had sensed the "flickering light" within Vader for years prior to RotJ.
The argument, however, is that said emotions hadn't reached a point where they were inhibiting Vader's abilities during RotJ, because no material released thus far has really painted that picture... As mentioned above, per new canon Vader was still channeling the dark side almost exclusively against Luke:
-Vader found a new "resolve" after ESB. He came to both fear and hate Luke, and as such, wanted to kill him.
-Vader nearly slaughtered Luke out of pure hatred when they first met on the moon of Endor(in the film.)
-Vader was capable of immersing himself in the dark side to suppress/bury the 'good' that Luke sensed, and regain his dark-sided clarity(in the film.)
-Vader was attacking Luke with nothing but anger/hatred/fear during their actual battle(in the film.)
How Luke rises to Vader-level by RotJ is indeed the bigger question, though. At this point in the comics, we have got to be getting very close to RotJ in the timeline, yet even though Luke's power has grown considerably since ESB, he still readily admits inferiority to Vader. However, Luke is fully cognizant of the fact that he needs to receive additional Jedi training before he faces Vader again, which is why he embarks on his upcoming quest(wherein he will find Yoda's holocron, and receive training/lessons that "take and give more than young Skywalker could have ever imagined")... So hopefully we'll get some definitive answers on that side of things soon enough.
Of course, since we're not yet caught up to RotJ in the timeline, the writers still have the opportunity to make Vader out as a conflicted mess and nerf his abilities... But I can only speak to what we have been told as of right now.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Oct 16th, 2021 at 07:01 PM
I think this suggests it from Secrets of the Sith:
"Lord Vader had believed his child had died with Padme. It was the fear, pain and suffering stemming from that loss that powered him for so long. But now a different emotion began to surface within him, one he had not experienced in ages-love."
Because it specifically mentions his emotions being the source of his power, so introducing Love would clearly screw with that.
Plus there's loads of examples from canon where conflict hinders abilities. It's just mentioned in Secrets of the Sith about that hindering Kylo.
And of course there's Lucas's commentary. I know he's not involved with SW anymore but that is still the official audio commentary of ROTJ.
Then there's Filoni's (who is still involved) comments comparing Luke's training to Ahsoka's hinting Ahsoka has the better training.
Now THAT I would like to see
Last edited by Darth Thor on Oct 20th, 2021 at 11:23 AM
I'm just saying that as of right now in the comics(which are currently set shortly before RotJ), Vader's dominant emotions have been made abundantly clear: Vader fears Luke because of his potential to replace him as Palpatine's apprentice. Because of this, Vader has come to hate/resent Luke and wants him dead. This is further cemented in the aforementioned novelization, wherein it is explicitly noted that Vader was using dark-sided emotions against Luke during their confrontation in RotJ, with no mention of this inner conflict inhibiting his abilities. Hate and fear are what Vader was actively tapping-into during their battle.
Sure, but Kylo was incapable of suppressing his emotions to the point where they weren't hindering him. Vader, on the other hand, was capable of doing so, and actually did so during RotJ: "The dark side is strong. Vader uses it to close off the questions, the memories, the hopes. The dark truths are true again"... So there evidently can be exceptions to this 'rule'. /shrug
I know what Lucas said, but his word is no longer the end-all/be-all of the franchise, and as such, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. He can be(and has been) contradicted in new canon.
Aside from the fact that Filoni's comment is ambiguous, we also know that he has never held a very high opinion of OT Luke, while he is obviously Ahsoka's biggest fangirl... So his [biased] implications really aren't surprising. However, if indeed Luke's skill with a saber was on par with Vader's during RotJ(as has been stated in new canon), then he *should* become Ahsoka's technical superior by default. But again, only time will tell here.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Oct 22nd, 2021 at 12:45 PM
May 8th, 2021 11:13 AM
