Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
It really surprises me that in 2020 there are still people around not understanding at all how DB functions in terms of power.
What I am reading from some posts here is a completely unjustified DB lowball that actually hurts my eyes.
I wanted to intervene to set things clear, so, spolier alert, this is going to be quite a long post divided into two parts.
PART 1)
The series really is easy to understand in its basics, dare I say simpler than almost anything else in the anime but also comics world.
Basically, it is like this: 99.9% of the times, having a higher power level means that you are stronger, faster, with greater energy/power output, more resistant than anybody with a power level lower than yours.
Moreover, Toriyama really helps a lot in simplifying this concept to the maximum for the reader by setting milestones and benchmarks in every saga. Example:
- Kid Goku, in DB, defeats King Piccolo who was far more powerful than anybody before him, full-power Roshi included
- The same kid Goku goes to Kami for training and cannot even see or perceive Mr Popo moving
- Mr Popo is actually nothing to Kami, who literally finger-flicks Goku away
- At 23rd Budokai, the very same Kami is no match anymore (in speed, power, reflexes, strength etc.) for both Piccolo and Goku
- Years later, an even stronger Piccolo is capable to casually blow up the Moon on panel
- Yet Raditz arrives and he proves to be capable to completely tank the same blast from Piccolo without even moving
- When Vegeta and Nappa arrives, the level of Raditz, which was top tier before, is shown to be the new low-baseline as each Saibaman is as strong as he was. Yamcha defeats one of them, this is AT telling the reader that from now on the level of power of Raditz will be completely outclassed
- Vegeta, on the other hand, is the new benchmark, capable with a stated battle power of 18,000 to completely blow up a planet of the size of the Earth
- Now, on Namek what is the first thing to happen? Cui, with the same power that Vegeta had on Earth (18,000), gets literally exploded by a strong ki-wave from Vegeta himself. This is AT telling the reader: "Look, from now on everyone is so strong that the level of power possessed by Vegeta on Earth is now a joke"
- Then there is Freeza, who, with a battle power of 530,000, is capable to effortlessly blow up a planet with 10 times the gravitational force of the Earth (meaning that, or it was much bigger than the Earth, or its core was much denser) while literally sitting on a chair laughing
- We now discover that this was the weakest form of Freeza who, at his maximum, he is actually more than 226 times stronger
- There is then the Super Saiyan who at the end defeats the most powerful version of Freeza
- Now, back on Earth, Freeza is back in Mecha form. He never goes full power again (he doesn't have the time to do it), but his Mecha form is said to be more powerful than his final form was on Namek
- Before going back to Earth, Freeza survives a planet much bigger than the Earth exploding in his face while being cut in half by his own attack, while being energy-depleted and after having being hit by a full-force Kamehameha in the face by an enraged Ssj Goku
- Well, Freeza on Earth gets cut in pieces and then atomized in few seconds by Ssj Trunks. This is AT telling the reader: "Hey, do you remember how mighty Freeza was? Well, from now on that level of power is a joke"
- Goku (i.e., Toriyama) then shows the reader (in case few tards didn't quite still get the basic concept even at this point..) that is the power (and especially Ki) which really makes the difference, by blocking Ssj Trunks's sword with one finger.
- Oh, also, Freeza being cut in half by the same Ssj Trunks' shows that level of speed and reaction is way beyond anything that we saw before, so now Goku is blocking Trunks's sword at a new, higher level of speed and reflexes that nobody with a lower level of power could replicate
And so on, on and on... I don't have the time nor I feel like it to go on with this, the concept should be quite clear at this point.
Just a quick fact: at the beginning of the Boo saga, Dabura is stated to be equal to Perfect Cell, stil he is nothing to the eyes of Boo saga Goku (who, in his own way, will just be a middle tier at best in the saga).
Ssj2 Gohan, who was the absolute benchmark during the Cell Games, gets surpassed right away before Fat Boo even has the time to weak up.
Now, within this context, it is clear how power, speed, strength etc. work in DB.
So, back to the argument of this topic, it could also be possible to understand how the speed and the reaction times, during combat (which is what matters the most in DB) evolve during the different sagas.
Anyone can go, read the manga and check these facts by himself.
Nothing so complicate really, on the other hand it's even quite fun actually.
A normal human has an average reaction time of 0.25 seconds at best for a visual stimulus, i.e. it takes a normal man at least 0.25 seconds before he can react to the stimulus (https://backyardbrains.com/experiments/reactiontime).
This of course implies that the actual overall reaction time is greater, since after 0.25 seconds the person would start to move and it would take another delta-Time to perform the physical movement.
For example, the average human speed of moving the palm of a hand to block something would already take more than 0.5 seconds (https://www.quora.com/How-fast-woul...your-hand-after).
This means that, under perfect conditions, it would take you 0.25 seconds to react to the visual stimulus and another 0.5 seconds to move a hand, for a total of 0.75 seconds.
i.e., 33% of the whole time is due to reaction, while 67% is due to the movement. Let's keep these values as a reference from here on.
Back in DB, Master Roshi was shown to be capable to casually catch all the bullets of a machine gun. If you go and search, you can find that Roshi was at about 6.6 meters
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from the man shooting at him, while the machine gun appears to be very similar to a real-life S1-100, which shoots bullets at a speed of around 410 m/s and at a rate of 600 bullets per minute.
With reference to one bullet, and simplyfing with constant linear speed, it would take the bullet 6.6/410 = 0.016 s to hit Roshi, who has thus 0.016 s to first visually react and then move his hand to block the bullet.
So, for Roshi 0.016 s are the same of the 0.75 s for the normal human. By applying the 33%-67% proportion, we have around 0.0053 seconds as a visual reaction time for Master Roshi.
However, if you look at the following picture:
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you can see that Roshi actually caught 9 bullets. With the assumed fire rate of 600 bullets per minute (i.e. 10 bullets per second), this would mean that it took overall 0.9 seconds for Roshi to perform the feat.
This implies that Rohsi's reaction time is even much lower because, for every bullet, he had to react to it and identify its trajectory first, and then move at a very fast speed one of his hands in the correct position to catch it.
However, let's lowball and keep 0.0053 seconds as the reference reaction time for a casual DB Master Roshi.
In real life, it appears that the quickest kick ever recorded has a time reaction of 0.3 seconds.
That means that in 0.3 seconds the kick was performed.
Even more, from the following video, at around 26 seconds, you can see Bruce Lee performing an incredibly fast kick:
If you slow the video down at 0.25 speed, it means that 1 second of video is actually equal to 4 seconds in real life.
If you look at Lee's kick at around 0.26, and count the 4 real life seconds from the slowed-down range 0:26 - 0:27, it appears that Bruce Lee performs the kick in around 1 second out of 4.
Fact which, translated into normal real-life time, it means 1/4 of a second, i.e. 0.25 seconds. In short, Bruce Lee actually peformed the kick in around 0.25 seconds.
Now, remember that for a human in an optimum condition, 0.25 seconds is the best measured visual reaction time.
It means that by the time the normal man perceives Bruce Lee's movement, Bruce Lee already basically hit him hard in the face with his kick.
We can thus consider this condition as a definition of "speed-blitz" which would perfectly fit in DBZ (or any other manga/comics), when someone is hit by somebody else without even having the time to react.
Now imagine this: if you can react to something in 0.25 seconds, and then it would take another 0.5 seconds to move your arm/hand (making 0.75 seconds in total), how much would it actually take to you to move a leg (like a kick, for example) instead?
I don't know about you guys but I consider myself in the range of normal humans and, if I would react visually in 0.25 seconds, it would for sure take me more than a whole second to then also perform a leg movement and/or kick.
But let's just assume we would all be particularly fit and fast (we are not, actually, so this will be another lowball of the estimate at the end) and say it would take to us 1 second to first visually react, and then move our leg.
It would mean 0.25 seconds of visual reaction time and 0.75 seconds to perform the kick.
This means that, out of 1 second:
- 25% of the time is the visual reaction
- 75% of the time is due for the leg movement/kick
Well, our 1 second is actually 0.25 seconds for Bruce Lee, of which ideally becomes for him:
- 0.0625 seconds of visual reaction (25% of the overall time)
- 0.1875 seconds for kicking (75% of the overall time)
So, according to these very simplified estimates, Bruce Lee would speed-blitz and murder me (or you...) with a visual reaction time of 0.0625 seconds, against my visual reaction time of 0.25 seconds at best.
This means that Bruce would be 4 times faster in reaction than a normal person, which is a plausible as well as a probably even underestimated guess.
Now, we can assume this value as a reference benchmark for a DBZ speed-blitz as well.
At this point, you have to remember that we estimated (and lowballed...) Roshi's casual reaction time at 0.0053 seconds.
We can thus say that, if people speed-blitzed him so fast that they could actually hit him without him even perceiving them, those guys could be considered as well to have reaction times 4x lower than his.
So, now we have all the instruments and we can finally start referring to DB characters.
1) During the 22nd Budokai, Goku moved so fast that Roshi couldn't see him. That makes Goku have a reaction time of 0.001325 seconds.
2) Chin Han, who was equal to 22nd Budokai Goku in speed, was not able to see Goku's movement during the King Piccolo saga. This puts Goku's reaction time at 0.00033125 seconds.
3) Yet, as said before, this Goku was too slow to even touch Mr. Popo, who was so fast that Goku was literally unable to see him moving. This fact would put Mr. Popo's reaction time at around 0.000083 seconds.
4) Now, 23rd budokai Goku and Piccolo were so fast that not even Kami who, was much faster than Popo, was capable to see them. Considering that Kami's reaction time would be far smaller than Popo's, this would put 23rd Budokai Piccolo and Goku's reaction times at lower than 0.0000207 seconds.
5) Then during early DBZ Raditz was blitzing both a stronger Goku and a stronger Piccolo at the same time. This would put Raditz's reaction time at better than 0.0000052 seconds, or 5.2 microseconds.
6) Nappa was much faster than Raditz, but Goku after King Kai's training was able to easily blitz him. This would make Saiyan Saga Goku's (without Kaioken) reaction time at considerably smaller than 1.3 microseconds.
7) Without Kaioken Goku couldn't even see a serious Vegeta (BP of 18,000). This would make their reaction time smaller than 0.325 microseconds.
8) On Namek, Burter was capable to speed-blitz a much more powerful Vegeta, who had already killed Cui (who was as powerful as Sayian Saga Vegeta himself), Dodoria and Zarbon.
Burter has been capable to speed-blitz this Vegeta so hard that he picked up a thrown Namek Dragon Ball so fast that Vegeta didn't basically even realize it. This would make Burter's reaction time considerably smaller than 0.08 microseconds (he was the "fastest in the universe", after all).
9) The problem for Burter was that Goku showed up with his casually 60,000+ battle power after his training on the spaceship under 100G. Goku was so fast that he easily blitzed Burter and even Jeice at the same time. This would put early Namek Goku's reaction time considerably smaller than 0.02 microseconds.
10) Piccolo after King Kai's training and merging with Nail, became so powerful that he could match 2nd form Freeza, whose power level was stated to be equal to 1 million, so much higher than anybody else in the game.
Yet, when Freeza went into his 3rd form, he was easily capable to speed-blitz Piccolo. Now, this is the chain in power, speed and strength between 3rd form Freeza and the Goku who blitzed Burter:
3rd form Freeza > Piccolo >= 2nd Form Freeza > 1st form Freeza >= Vegeta (after killing Jeice) > Goku > Ginew > Burter.
First form Freeza is still almost 5 times more powerful than the Kaioken version of Goku who blitzed Burter without Kaioken. 1st Form Freeza would blitz this Goku so hard that he would be a statue to him, 1st form Freeza's speed is incosequential to 3rd form Freeza's speed.
So, starting from early Namek no-Kaioken Goku's 0.02 microseconds reaction time, and considering the previous power chain, we would have:
- Kaioken Goku (120,000 BP) blitzing his non-Kaioken version: probable reaction time = 0.005 microseconds
- 1st form Freeza (530,000 BP): probable reaction time at the very least of 0.0012 microseconds, or 1.2 nanoseconds
- 2nd form Freeza: probable reaction time at the very least of 0.3 nanoseconds
- 3rd form Freeza: probable reaction time at the very least of 0.075 nanoseconds
11) Vegeta, after his final Zenkai, is stronger, more powerful and faster than 3rd form Freeza. This means that his reaction time would be lower than the 0.075 nanoseconds of 3rd form Freeza.
Yet, final form Freeza, while just being a little bit more than casual, can completely blitz him and then murder him to death.
Then, 60,000,000 BP final form Freeza is just a statue to Ssj Goku (150,000,000 BP), who could blitz him and break him casually like a Kit-Kat bar (cit.).
So, do you guys get the point, besides those fun and (still) lowballed calculations?
And this is "only" Namek Ssj Goku.
The trend continues in the same, exact way: the Android saga, the Cell saga, the early Boo saga, the late Boo saga, Super Vegetto...
Really, it is clear as sunlight.
A fair point could be made for DBZ characters about their flying/travelling speed being considerably slower than their fighting/close-range/bursting speed (and thus, reaction time).
And I'd agree with it.
However, by the time DBS came in, this concept really got surpassed.
In fact, casual Jiren was stated to fly in the Universe on his own because he considered MFTL spaceships to be too slow.
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Then, in the anime (both are canon obviously) a serious Jiren, during the last part of the ToP, couldn't even see/sense/perceive MUI Goku's movement.
And that would be DBZ only, let alone Super for God's sake, and let alone current UI Omen Goku who trained head-to-head for 6 months with an Angel.
If, still, you can't or don't want to accept DB combat speed and reaction times, just three are the possibilities:
1) You never, ever read the DB manga or saw the DB anime once in your liftime
2) You just blatanlty refuse to accept the reality of a series of which you are just a hater
Peace.
__________________ Morning, Detective. Miss me?
Last edited by Sj_Sharp on Mar 25th, 2020 at 06:57 PM
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Flash is so fast, he could play act as the entire DCU population on Earth, AND all extraterrestrial races on their home planets, while taking time out to dress up in highly detailed individualistic outfits and makeup, and you'd swear it's a bustling universe.
Even though it's all just Flash.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Aside from all the retards saying otherwise, SJ's deduction is really the most accurate, albeit a bit overstated.
Only Wally West Flash at his fastest could realistically blitz MUI Goku, and even then- we have outliers of Goku in SSJB KKX10 being faster than time too, even when he was much weaker/slower.
__________________
"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
Dragon Ball lacks feats. And power scaling is bullshit.
The numbers of power levels are completely meaningless! How much is a power level worth? How can you measure it? How do you know how power levels scale?
It's all fan head canon. Toriyama himself is fan head canon, as his words are constantly contradictory and he clearly makes it up as he goes, making his statements worthless.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
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Mar 23rd, 2020 06:36 PM
