Registered: Dec 2019
Location: Imperial Throne Room
"Anakin is considerably above Dooku"
-Like I mentioned proof? Dooku expending energy on Anakin does not mean he is considerably more powerful and aren't you the one who always denies the novelizations being canon?
"So placing Vader below Palpatine and Yoda doesn't leave much room for improvement"
-You have no idea how powerful Yoda is in comparison to Vader by this point. Same goes with Palpatine, his knowledge and likely power grew over those two decades.
Yes Vader was going for the kill, but he was specifically being cautious, that is why he gains ground slowly. It's still a one-sided fight.
I'm not arguing Ben/Ahsoka's levels I'm simply saying you can't downplay Vader. We don't know how strong they grew in the force. It's completely realistic that two prodigies gained enough power to resist Vader's TK with 20 years of experience.
You're downplaying Vader simply because he hasn't fought anyone stronger than who Anakin's fought but you're treating them as separate beings. Like Vader suddenly lost his memory after his accident. To me, it sounds like your logic is just because Vader hasn't fought an opponent who's above Dooku level he's not Anakin level when they're the same person.
If we follow a similar logic ROTJ Palpatine and ignore the fact that Vader didn't try to kill Palpatine. ROTJ Palpatine must be way worse than ROTS Palpatine because OT Palpatine doesn't have any feats. Or AOTC Kenobi is superior to TPM Palpatine because TPM Palpatine doesn't have any feats.
I also don't see any proof he ragdolled Maul with ease. Maul is kneeling/on the floor to him in two instances. Vader was able to ragdoll Sidious in similar circumstances, that doesn't mean he can ragdoll Sidious with ease. Sidious held Maul for all of about 2 seconds in the first instance and wasn't doing enough damage to warrant Maul trying to use the force to defend himself anyway and there's an argument to be made that it's harder to defend yourself once you're already being levitated and slammed into a wall. Just because Sidious butchered Maul with ease does not mean he can freely use the force on Maul. One the first case Maul is shocked as it comes out of nowhere. Second case Maul basically gets baited, and is completely wide open. We see force users employ force attacks when characters leave themselves wide open. This is a near equivalent to Vader pushing Ahsoka. The third time he is out of breath and already on the floor.
There are multiple reasons for Vader to be stronger:
1. He did not deteriorate therefore he is at least peak Anakin.
2. His suit 'amplified' his powers therefore he is at least above peak Anakin.
3. He has two decades more experience and time to hone his skills.
4. He is physically stronger than Anakin.
5. Sources say his potential grew.
6. Sources say he is a better duelist than Palpatine, at least technically.
7. He has far more durability.
8. His force power evidently grew. This means he can last longer in a fight, amplify his physicals more or employ telekinesis on objects to hinder an opponent. Anakin has not shown the ability to do this effectively.
Vader doesn't have a better showing than Anakin because no one other than Palpatine is available to give him a better showing, as I mentioned earlier.
The only way you can downplay Vader is by saying he has less mobility, but Galan has already mentioned that he centered his fighting style to overcome this issue and you cannot say that this one point > all the other 8 points that I made.
Last edited by Scizard on Mar 28th, 2020 at 04:07 PM
You brought up expending energy to defeat Kenobi which came from the novel. Without the novel it's just speculation that cost him considerable energy.
Proof is the databank which states Anakin grew vastly in power from S5 TCW to ROTS. We already saw they were near equals in S4 TCW.
We know Vader NEEDS Luke to overthrow Palpatine.
Didn't seem very one sided tbh. I presume you will provide your source how Vader was being extra cautious, hence defeating Ben extra slowly?
You are arguing Ben/Ahsoka's level by default.
It's only logical that if Vader is =/> Peak Anakin, then both Ahsoka and Ben would need to be >/= ROTS Dooku.
We do have an idea of Ahsoka's level given her confrontation with Maul and Inquisitors. So lets not act like she's a complete unknown at this point.
I'm not downplaying Vader at all. He's simply limited by plot. There's no reason to presume he's above Anakin for no reason except he claims his anger has made him stronger in LOTS.
I'm asking for evidence that he's > Peak Anakin for which I've not been convinced at all. As he simply doesn't have a combat feat on par with overpowering Dooku the way Peak Anakin did. We also know from the plot of the OT that Vader was still < Palpatine.
So again, for what reason should I give Vader so much credit to actually place him above Peak Anakin?
The way I see it, he's likely still above Dooku level, but still below Yoda/Palptine level. So where's the improvement exactly? In use of TK? Sure. As an all out combatant at his best? You've not convinced me.
There's no reason to presume ROTJ Palpatine is above or below ROTS Palpatine in combat. Though we know he's been gathering artifacts/knowledge e.t.c.
Sidious practically had both Maul and Opress frozen from the get go. And he was laughing while doing it. The only greater show of dominance I've seen is Yoda over Ventress. Except Maul and Opress combined are obviously >>>> Ventress.
Sidious also force choked Count Dooku over a hologram.
So why are we assuming Vader is his near equal again?
There's nothing concrete there. You are basically saying he logically should be > Anakin. But he is not, because that's not how Lucas designed the OT to be. Even when Disney retcon that, they are still beholden to the plot of the OT.
By all showings and feats, he's definitely Anakin's superior in the use of TK and his consistent control of the Force.
But there's nothing to place him above Peak Anakin in combat.
Oh and by the way Anakin's still got the greatest force feat as well on Mortis. But he wasn't consistent in his use of the Force, which is why I say Vader had better mastery and consistent use of his TK. Didn't seem to help much against any notable opponents though for some reason.
No that's wrong. Because he's fought both Ben and Ahsoka. You can argue special effects for Ben (but Disney used that fight to determine how Rebels Ben fights Maul, so they are beholden to that fight being complete canon). But Ahsoka was recent and in animated form. He force pushed her at one point, and had her potentially defeated. But it was hardly a rag doll.
Except I'm not even attempting to downplay Vader. At all.
Jeez saying someone at their best is on par with Peak Anakin is not a downplay. The only people above that are Luke, Palpatine and Yoda. Aside from that only Windu might be on par with that level. How on Earth is that downplaying? He's still in both his Anakin and Vader incarnations > both of Sidious's previous apprentices, probably > than any previous Sith and greater than all other Jedi.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Mar 28th, 2020 at 05:19 PM
And though you could rightly argue that "light years" isn't exactly quantifiable, the obvious intent of the dialogue is that Vader was FAR above Dooku and Maul.
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Registered: Dec 2019
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Wasn't talking about the novel. Of course it requires energy to use the force.
Obviously not that much vastly in power considering he gets pushed back by Dooku in S6 and kicked while Kenobi is on Dooku. Anakin is also getting visibly outskilled in ROTS. Dooku rising both Anakin and Kenobis blade and then kicking them. I'll agree to Anakin>Dooku but not that he is vastly or considerably more powerful than Dooku considering his fights at the moment. My mind is open to change on this.
And so what? He's likely still a very similar level to Palpatine. That's growth.
Pretty sure Galan has the source.
I'm not arguing Ahsoka/Kenobi > Dooku at all. Anakin wasn't able to just ragdoll Dooku either. So I think there's a misunderstanding. I'm saying that Vader not being able to ragdoll Ahsoka/Kenobi doesn't mean his force powers are weaker than you think.
If you're referring to sabers then, there's an argument to be made for Ahsoka/Kenobi to be near Dooku, but they're both struggling against Vader. You can visibly see it for Ahsoka and as soon as they re-engage you can see Vader is far more aggressive and Ahsoka would've died had she not been saved by Ezra.
This is what you don't understand. It does not matter than Vader does not have a feat that is superior to overpowering Dooku because he has not deterriated. It's like arguing can the Anakin who was on Coruscant during ROTS do the same as Invisible Hand Anakin and the suit enhances Vader.
"Vader is peak Anakin an enhanced suit and two decades more experience.
here's nothing concrete there. You are basically saying he logically should be > Anakin. But he is not, because that's not how Lucas designed the OT to be. Even when Disney retcon that, they are still beholden to the plot of the OT."
You're literally just saying here. Logically Vader is stronger but I'll choose to ignore that because Lucas says so. Lucas doesn't own Star Wars anymore. Disney can make Vader as powerful as they like.
I'm not sure what's so hard to understand. I'm not saying Vader is LIGHT YEARS beyond Anakin. Just that he is peak Anakin but better. All the sources point to this.
"Vader doesn't have a better showing than Anakin because no one other than Palpatine is available to give him a better showing, as I mentioned earlier."
"No that's wrong."
What's wrong about it? I'm not arguing ragdolling here. I'm saying that no one Vader can fight is CONFIRMED above Dooku which means Vader CANNOT have a better showing than Anakin because there is no one to give him a better showing.
Palpatine had 20 years to practice the dark side so it's logical that atleast his force augmentation has improved, however I will agree that there's nothing absolutely concerete on this matter that I'm aware of.
And yes there's plenty concrete in my 1-8 points. Most of them are facts and Mortis is literally a one off situation so I hope you are not using that in your defence.
You are trying to argue that Vader is not superior to Anakin. He is superior to Anakin. Having a suit that enhances and having more force power is enough to say Vader > Anakin. Let alone all the wank that say he is above Sidious "the most powerful sith lord", best red lightsaber duelist, slamming Sidious into a wall....
If you're saying Vader is an equal to Anakin. Then you're implying that Vader did not grow at all in two decades and yes you tend to go off by what is logical within reason and when it does not contradict other stuff.
Regarding Maul like I said, Maul was not expecting to be flung against a wall. He was not defending himself. The same applies to Dooku. If you want to go by that logic then Vader > Sidious because Vader was able to do the same thing.
Perhaps Vader was 'weaker' right off the operating table in RotS(which is what that quote seems to be referencing), as he basically woke up in a new body that he was obviously not used to... Though that also may not be the case, depending on how you interpret the opening scene from Soule's series: https://i.imgur.com/BdZRqrt.jpg https://i.imgur.com/FMv6cNg.jpg
...Along with the fact that Vader fought Kirak Infil'a(who was stated to be more powerful than any Jedi he had ever fought in the solicits for issue #3) just a few days after the events of RotS.
But either way, in Lords of the Sith it was explained that when Vader was forced to wear the armor, he initially hated it and viewed it as foreign. After growing accustomed to his armor, however, Vader's power and overall connection to the Force became stronger than ever:
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
I guess it's also worth mentioning that during an interview with Charles Soule and Giuseppe Camuncoli regarding the events of Darth Vader v2 #3(set just a few days after RotS), Giuseppe stated this about Vader:
"[Vader's] armor is just new to him, so of course you have to make him feel a little less confident then he is when he's in his older days [...] But somehow he is such a great fighter. He is a being of great power. He was a great Jedi before, and he's become maybe the most powerful Sith around."
Granted that's the artist talking, but he obviously worked very closely with Soule on the plots/scripts, and Soule didn't opt to correct him in the interview... So take that for what it's worth. /shrug
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Vader's potential being curbed by the suit was something that never made sense to me. I get what Lucas was trying to do, but it ties the Force to the mundane to much and seems to really contradict Yoda's "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" speech. And, yeah, like I said earlier it just doesn't make any sense.
That Vader's issues were mental rather than physical was always a better idea.
But I digress that quote should put him at Peak Anakin level. Still not convinced hes progressed much beyond that level though. Except in consistency of his high showings and control.
But why wouldn't Vader be beyond Anakin by a significant amount? Because of his fights with Ahsoka and Ben? Please.
As mentioned, Ahsoka is Filoni's pet character. No one is going to casually ragdoll her under Filoni(not even Palpatine did) -- so that's a moot argument as far as I'm concerned. And tbh, I'm not sure why you'd even try and faux-lowball Vader by cherry-picking this one showing..? Especially when Vader beat her in both 'rounds' of their fight. /shrug
As for Ben- he three-pieced Maul, yet the novel From a Certain Point of View makes it abundantly clear that he had absolutely NO chance of beating Vader:
Again:
-Vader didn't lose any of his potential.
-His injuries made his connection to the Force stronger than ever.
-His lightsaber skill was just as good, if not better, than ever before(a canon source puts him above Palpatine in sabers, for what it's worth.)
-He had 20+ years of near-constant battle to further hone his abilities.
-He was massively(ie. "light years") beyond the likes of Dooku.
-And a few sources imply that he was in Palpatine's tier from the get-go.
...Given all of the above, why on earth would we assume that Vader plateaued at RotS-level power/skill?
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Mar 29th, 2020 at 12:49 PM
Registered: Dec 2019
Location: Imperial Throne Room
Significant isn't the right word. Not sure how I'd describe Vader's superiority to Anakin. Probably something on the lines of if Anakin was the top of A tier, Vader would be around the bottom of S Tier.
Again whats with the accusations of lowballing Vader? How is placing him somewhere in between Dooku and Palpatine lowballing exactly? Id argue you guys are lowballing just how powerful Peak Anakin already was, with his utter dominance over Dooku. Not to mention him once overpowering The Son and Daughter combined ffs.
-The databank has made it clear Palpatine KNEW Vader would be weaker after his injuries. He wasnt talking about needing recovery time after coming off the operating table.
-Ahsoka did run from Palpatine. Her and Ezra combined could not hold Palpatine off. And I dont recall pretending Vader didnt beat her.
- Vader needed Luke to overthrow the Emperor. This was according to Lucas himself, because Vader possibly lost the potential to do so. Nothing in the new canon has changed that. The plot of the OT has not been retconned.
- Exactly where was this room for improvement when Peak Anakin was already beyond Maul and Dooku? There was even a quote from Lucas implying he was already Palpatines equal.
Vader improved in his use of TK. And in consistent performances. So that is an improvement, and power up of sorts. But aside from that hes not levelled up one from Anakins peak performances. Nothing shows that anywhere.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Mar 29th, 2020 at 09:52 PM
While the intention behind the RotS fight was that Anakin was significantly and distinctly more powerful than Dooku, since no other source supports that in Canon, Disney could be trying to spin the fight to mean that Dooku was tired after fighting Obi-Wan, and his loss to Anakin was circumstancial.
And since so many authors and sources seem to insist (despite logic and Lucas' original intention) that Vader has improved significantly, it's reasonable to assume that if he's >Dooku now, he wasn't before.
In other words, Anakin (at his peak) could potentially lose to Dooku or Windu, whereas Vader would always win.
Mar 28th, 2020 03:55 PM
