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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Sidious and Vader??


Sidious and Vader??
Started by: Eli Vanto

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Eli Vanto
Tactical Prodigy

Registered: Jan 2020
Location: Chiss Defense Fleet


 

Sidious and Vader??

What evidence is there in new canon that Sidious was more powerful than Vader?

I ask because I've recently come across a few guides and bios that imply that Vader is the most powerful Sith. confused


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Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 11:42 AM
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Psychotron
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Registered: Jun 2011
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Vader needed Luke to overthrow the Emperor, remember? He would have done it himself otherwise.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 01:01 PM
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Eli Vanto
Tactical Prodigy

Registered: Jan 2020
Location: Chiss Defense Fleet


 

right right. But that have have also just been a way for Vader to get Luke to his side.

also, I'm more talking about canon info released since 2014.


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Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 01:18 PM
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Psychotron
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It doesn't get more canon than ESB. And if Vader could beat Sidious alone why hasn't he done it already? He's been his apprentice for 20+ years.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 01:23 PM
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Scizard
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Registered: Dec 2019
Location: Imperial Throne Room


 

You could argue knowledge, e.g. still didn't know how to transfer essence.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 01:51 PM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

Always found it strange that everyone assumes to overthrow a Sith Master you have to be able to beat them in a 1 v 1 or 2 v 2 face to face confrontation.

Vader is the best pilot in the Galaxy. And Luke not far behind. Would have thought thats far more useful in taking down the Emperor.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 02:18 PM
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Scizard
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2019
Location: Imperial Throne Room


 

Not sure how that'd work though, most of the places the Emperor resides in are probably heavily fortified. There's also a decent chance that Sidious could conjure a force barrier to lessen the injuries.

Maybe attack the Emperor with a transport ship? But we've seen Luke use the force on ships so Sidious would probably be able to do similar to Vader's ship. Unless I'm missing something.

Also there's a good chance Vader overestimated Sidious and is just being extremely careful. It's likely that Vader would've far surpassed Sidious if he just gave it an extra 10-20 years. But with Luke he wouldn't need to wait that time.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 02:43 PM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

Just seems more effective than using a Lightsaber to me, especially when Vader > Palpatine in that particular use of the force.

That said, I see your point, its probably far more effective leading an army of ships into battle against the Emperor. So would require Vader to have his own army loyal to him.

More effective for Luke leading Rogue Squadron.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 03:43 PM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

If Vader really believed that he had the power to kill Palpatine, he would have done it(or at least attempted it) himself... Especially given the rage/hatred he felt towards Palpatine at times.

But the very fact that he didn't suggests he couldn't. This is solidified by Vader wanting to team-up with Luke in order to overthrow Palpatine.


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Last edited by Galan007 on Mar 26th, 2020 at 07:45 PM

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 04:20 PM
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relentless1
Dark Overlord of KMC

Registered: Aug 2014
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Just seems more effective than using a Lightsaber to me, especially when Vader > Palpatine in that particular use of the force.


lol what? Sidious would destroy Vader in a saber fight too

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 05:44 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by relentless1
lol what? Sidious would destroy Vader in a saber fight too




Was talking about as a pilot.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 05:45 PM
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relentless1
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Was talking about as a pilot.


ah ok, misread that then, and yes you're correct on that one; would almost be comical to see Palpatine pilot a fighter tbh... it'd be so out of context lol

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 06:00 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by relentless1
ah ok, misread that then, and yes you're correct on that one; would almost be comical to see Palpatine pilot a fighter tbh... it'd be so out of context lol



He can definitely do that. Its a pretty standard use of the force for both Jedi and Sith.

Just no reason to believe any Jedi or Sith is on par with Vader or Luke in that regard.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 07:07 PM
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Scizard
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Registered: Dec 2019
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
If Vader really believed that he had the power to kill Palpatine, he would have done it(or at least attempted it) himself... Especially given the rage/hatred he felt towards Palpatine at times.

But the very fact that he didn't suggests he couldn't. This is solidified by Vader wanting to team-up with Luke in order to overthrow Palpatine.


My point mainly was that I don't think Vader had much idea how powerful Palpatine was sure he can tell force power, in which Palpatine outclasses (most likely) Vader, however, a lot would come down to skills as a duelist since neither would be ragdolling the other.

It seems likely that even if Vader's Sabers was > Palpatine's then I don't see how Vader would know that, it's also possible Palpatine bigged up his fight against Yoda. Which would make Vader even more wary of Palpatine then he already is.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 08:14 PM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

^ That's also assuming a battle between them would even come down to a saber clash.


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I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 08:33 PM
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Scizard
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Registered: Dec 2019
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Yes. What do you think would be the most likely? Disregarding Luke.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 08:38 PM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

If Vader tried to overthrow Palpatine?

Most likely outcome is that he gets dominated with FL.


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"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 08:48 PM
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Scizard
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I thought Vader would be able to just block it like Mace does?

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 08:54 PM
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Zentrex
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Registered: Jan 2018
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I think there's a few different ways to approach this.

In terms of canon quotes saying Sidious is more powerful, the book Lords of the Sith implies that Sidious is more powerful than Vader, though that book does take place in 14 BBY. It actually goes quite into detail about the relationship between Vader and Sidious, too. Another point is that in the 2015 Vader comic and the following Doctor Aphra comic, we've seen Vader get ambushed and tricked, whereas the same comic claimed that Palpatine's precog was so powerful that he could sense the very instant when hostility toward him turned into action.

The other point is that he clearly had a greater knowledge of the dark side and its powers, which may have given him a combative edge.

Of course, the OT also implies that he's more powerful - "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I MUST obey my master."


In terms of why Vader didn't kill him, while it's tempting to say that it's because Vader wasn't more powerful than him, I agree with Darth Thor that he still probably could have killed him. I think it's probably because he was so subservient to him. He was psychologically locked into obeying Sidious, even if that's not what he wanted to do. Him wanting to teach Luke was his first step toward independence. Him actually teaching Luke would have been the last. Much like Kylo stepping out of Snoke's shadow by teaching Rey.

In terms of out-of-universe authorial intent, Sidious is pretty much supposed to BE the Dark Side. He's the definition of giving into your hate. So if you were to kill him, there's no Dark Side to join. There's no one to kill to defeat the Dark Side. There's no way to really tell a story without Sidious, since his death means the end of the saga.
And it wouldn't make sense for anyone to be more powerful in the Dark Side than the Dark Side incarnate himself.


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Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 10:14 PM
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Psychotron
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Always found it strange that everyone assumes to overthrow a Sith Master you have to be able to beat them in a 1 v 1 or 2 v 2 face to face confrontation.

Vader is the best pilot in the Galaxy. And Luke not far behind. Would have thought thats far more useful in taking down the Emperor.


You have seen Vader's Star Destroyer. There's no way the Emperor isn't traveling in something at least as massive.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2020 10:55 PM
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