I mean, this is probably the best way to consolidate things, so I'm not really disagreeing.
I'm just saying that repeatedly pushing Kylo to kill Rey --and even threatening Kylo with death if he didn't do so immediately-- still seems like a very illogical risk for Palpatine to take, imo. After all, if Kylo had followed his orders, and actually killed Rey(which it *seemed* like he was about to do during their fight on the Death Star wreckage, until Leia intervened), Palpatine would have been left without a suitable vessel to transfer his essence into, and without a dyad to heal his existing body with.
So in the grand scheme of things, it would have made a lot more sense for Palpatine to have ordered Kylo to bring Rey to him alive, imo. Why take irrational risks if you don't absolutely need to?
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Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 29th, 2020 at 01:58 PM
Plenty of TROS can be handwaved or reconciled on careful consideration, but Sheev's usual shtick of "pit intended candidate against useful placeholder in order to test their power/resolve" is a suboptimal strategy here since he's not, in this case, looking for an apprentice he can comfortably live without but a recepticle for his spiritual essence that he literally needs to survive.
My guess is that Palpatine just didn't trust Kylo Ren, and believed that the quickest/easiest and probably the only way he could get Kylo Ren to do what he wanted in terms of Rey, would be to order Kylo Ren to do the exact opposite by making Ren believe that he feared Rey. After all, Palpatine's threats only made Kylo Ren pursue Rey and try harder to turn her to the dark side, it's not what made Ren seemingly attempt to kill her. And if Palpatine could read Vader's intentions, and Snoke Kylo Ren's, then I'm sure Palpatine could read Kylo Ren's.
But yeah, the story could have been written so that Palpatine ordered Ren to bring Rey to him alive, but making Kylo Ren into a simple 'yes man' would have done no justice to his character arc. They were trying to establish that as of TROS, Kylo Ren was an independent boss (or so he thought), with the message being that when you do selfish things, you're really still serving evil(Palpatine representing the embodiment of evil in SW) more than yourself, and you just end up f*cking yourself over in the end. The problem is that the story didn't show this message all the way through with Kylo Ren because he was redeemed before he brought Rey to Palpatine, it's just implied that that would have been the case when Sidious tells Rey that he actually never wanted her dead and that he actually wanted her to kill him in anger all along.
I do think that as of the final product, that is what they were intending to convey, but with the lack of planning and all the rushing and reediting, it made things a mess.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Last edited by Dominis on Jul 29th, 2020 at 04:25 PM
My overall point, without delving too deep into interpretation, is that I don't think there is a problem with Palpatine's characterization or plan in TROS. A simple line from the novel like "for Palpatine knew that Ren would do anything to try and prevent him from having Rey and retaking the galaxy, even if it meant killing her... yet Ren was the only person who could bring Rey to him yadayadayada" could have cleared up any confusion as to why Palpatine felt that the only way to get Ren to bring Rey to him was by pretending to fear her and want her dead (or hell, even by having Palpatine imply it in the movie some way). But even without such a line, I still believe that it's the most logical assumption.
Did Palpatine overdo it? I mean maybe...but the novel does say he appeared to be a lot weaker as of the time he communicated with Ren telepathically, so maybe he was even more desperate.
Personally, I think the real issue was with them not knowing where and how they were going to conclude Kylo Ren's story or how they were going to connect it with the overall narrative.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
That's different though. He was saying "Kill your father and you can take his place as the number 2 guy in the Empire". Here Palpy is outright saying he will possess Rey if she kills him. I doubt Rey wants to be possessed by a 100-year-old man.
It's true that the scenario isn't literally identical, become my dark side servant vs. become my dark side meatsuit, but fundamentally the Emperor's error is the same.
In both situations, the Emperor attempts to coerce a victim into doing something that is clearly antithetical to the victim's goals and well-being.
Luke lashed out at Vader not out of ambition, but righteous fury. He stood on the precipice of the dark side and rather than let the situation play out, the Emperor arrogantly demands that Luke murder his father in cold blood and take his place as the Emperor's servant and possession. (Recall Sidious's line to Luke earlier in the meeting: "It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now... mine.")
Not much of a sales pitch and it prompts Luke to reconsider at the critical moment.
Likewise, the Emperor overplays his hands by arrogantly demanding Rey cut him down in anger so he can outright possess her. If he'd simply kept his mouth shut, odds are she might well have done that. Instead, he shatters the illusion by telling her what will happen if she follows through with it and then tries to blackmail her with her friends' lives hanging in the balance.
If anything, you might be able to make the argument that he was less foolish with Rey simply because he thought he had the means of compelling her obedience (telling her if she kills him she could save the Resistance fleet from certain death by becoming their leader) regardless.
Still, both scenarios are arrogant and cartoonish, which is the Emperor to a Tee.
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Which is all the more reason for him to not keep prompting Kylo to murder Rey. His body was breaking down and he had no other clone bodies that we know of that were prepared to receive his essence. He needed Rey as soon as possible.
The thing is that Sidious already managed to goad Luke into strking him in anger. He was already half way on the dark side. So I can see him getting cocky with Luke. There was no reason to tell Rey what his true plan was. He should have just goaded her into strking him like Luke did (this time with no Vader to intervine) and his plan would have worked. It's just bad writing.
I mean, yeah, Palpatine could have ordered Ren to bring Rey to him, and they corrupt her together. But Kylo Ren has no reason to trust or want to serve Palpatine, and Palpatine knows this. So if he orders Kylo Ren to kill Rey, he knows Ren would want to do the opposite, thinking he would be outsmarting Palpatine, when it's really the other way around.
It seems Kylo Ren was just pretending to trust Palpatine (which Palps can sense), but doesn't actually believe that Palpatine is going to just hand over his empire, which is why he thinks he needs Rey to help him take it by force, and that is what Palpatine is counting on.
Threatening Kylo Ren served two purposes... one, to make Kylo Ren believe that he fears the possibility of Ren using Rey against him, hence the line "perhaps you have betrayed me," so that Ren would want to do it even more... and two, to speed up the process because he is dying and desperate.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
But remember, Palpatine didn't have the same influence over Ren and Rey that he had over Vader and Luke in ROTJ. Palpatine had Vader right under his direct control. And out of Luke's compassion for Vader and desperate want to redeem his father, he had control over Luke.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
But that's assuming Ren fully believed Palpatine would just hand over his military power, and considering how Ren seemingly believed he needed to take it from Palpatine by force using Rey, I'm guessing he didn't.
If Palpatine is aware that Kylo Ren doesn't trust him, how could he trust Ren to bring Rey to him alive?
Kylo Ren would be on to Palpatine, knowing Palpatine needs/wants Rey for a reason, and would probably do anything to prevent that.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Jul 29th, 2020 01:38 PM
