Goku was referring to when both of them ended up in the afterlife after their fight. Goku got a body and continued his training, widening their gap.
As I pointed out above Goku in the movies underwent additional training after returning to the afterlife which could explain his power boost. And it's not like there's no precedent for Toei making Goku look stronger than Gohan in their material. Goku was stronger than Gohan in movie 8 and in movie 9 Goku decked Super Bojack while in base. And there's Goku looking strong in anime filler.
Last edited by Marikina on Jul 4th, 2021 at 10:28 AM
Movies 10-13 are all set during the same general period as the Boo saga(with most of them literally taking place days apart.) So when did Goku have an opportunity to significantly level-up?
Oh, I'm well aware of the fact that Goku routinely looked better than his peers in the movies. Hence why I said this:
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
The movies are only loosely based on the anime timeline. Movie 12 after all did have an ongoing second afterlife tournament that wouldn't have jived with the anime.
But again: the Daizenshuu gives us a timeline in which these movies take place, and it's all during the Boo saga...
M10: takes place just before the 25th WMAT.
-Videl has the hairstyle she adopted after Gohan taught her to fly.
-Goku is still dead.
*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set around the start of the 25th WMAT.
M11: takes place just before the initial showdown with Boo.
-#18 presses Mr. Satan to hand over the Tournament prize money.
*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set around the conclusion of the 25th WMAT, and the initial conflict with Fat Boo.
M12: takes place just before the climax of the battle with Super Boo.
-Goku is dead.
-Vegeta is dead.
-Boo is mentioned.
-Gotenks appears and uses his Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack(meaning this is post-RoSaT Gotenks.)
*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set at some point in the middle of the Boo saga -- likely around the battle with Super Boo/Bootenks/Boohan.
M13: takes place just after the conclusion of the Boo saga.
-Both Goku and Vegeta have living bodies.
-Peace has been restored to earth.
*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set right after Pure Boo's defeat/death.
So again, even though the movies are non-canon, they still adhere to the same general timeline of events as the canon/manga timeline... Meaning that all of the movies literally take place a few days apart(per the Daizenshuu.) So like I mentioned earlier: I'm not sure when Goku would've have the chance to significantly level-up between these films..?
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Imo, it makes more sense to assume that Gohan and Gotenks were nerfed(relative to manga canon) for the sole purpose of allowing Goku to take the spotlight again, than it does to assume that Goku was SO much more powerful in the movie-verse that his SS2 form is on par with Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks... Because in the manga, the duo were far beyond even SS3 Goku.
Anyway, I said from the start that the movies(in particular) are a broken shitshow when it comes to "scaling", and y'all are welcome to assume that movie Goku IS that powerful without question. I'm just trying to rationalize things the best I can. /shrug
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 5th, 2021 at 10:31 PM
Again, it's literally the same thing, just flipped around. It doesn't make sense for Goku to suddenly get stronger, and it doesn't make sense for everyone else to suddenly get weaker, either. I don't understand what's giving you this confidence that your side of the coin is any more reasonable of a rationalization.
Well, that's your interpretation, at least. Maybe Toriyama would agree, maybe he wouldn't; I can't comment on that.
I am pretty confident, though, that the folks at Toei Animation would disagree, given that that Goku fared just fine against Buutenks in the anime. Clearly not everybody involved in the production process was operating under the same assumptions as you. If you'd still like to insist that your interpretation is more true to the manga, that's fine, but then it's necessary to acknowledge that Toei's productions don't have to comply 1-to-1 with Toriyama's vision.
Like I said, that's why the movies are only loosely based on the anime timeline and clearly do their own thing. If we're strictly adhering to the anime timeline then yes, Goku shouldn't have any time to train with Grand Kaio again to get stronger anymore than he would have enough time to fight in a second afterlife tournament, but for the purposes of movie 12 he does.
Again, to me it's more reasonable to assume that Gohan/Gotenks were nerfed(relative to manga canon) for the sake of the plot, than it is to assume that movie-verse Goku is just SO powerful that he can match the aforementioned in his SS2 state.
You're welcome to disagree, as neither side of the coin can be definitively proven. I'm simply voicing my opinion on the matter, just as you are voicing yours.
Pretty sure Toriyama would agree(back when he originally wrote the Boo saga, at least), given the abundance of evidence that points to:
Ultimate Gohan >> SS3 Gotenks >>> SS3 Goku >>>> SS2 Goku.
I agree that Toei, in and of itself, really doesn't give a shit about established canon/Toriyama scaling. The movies are also set in an alternate, non-canon timeline where anything could be possible. That's why I keep reiterating "relative to manga canon" and such... Because that has historically been the measuring stick that just about everyone has always used to gauge characters from the movies.
But again, you guys are welcome to assume that movie-verse SS2 Goku ~ non-nerfed/full power Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks. That's just not how I view things, is all. /shrug
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 9th, 2021 at 05:29 PM
Or maybe... just maybe... Gohan and Gotenks suck really bad, Tori felt pity for them, so he gave them five minutes of fame he immediately forgot about?
I mean... SSJ3 Gotenks (manga), Mystic Gohan and Good Mister Buu all got trashed on the beginning of DBS, proving once and for all they really can't hold a candle to the top dogs such as Goku and Vegeta.
I understand what you're trying to say, but again: the Daizenshuu outlines the timeframe in which the movies are set, and it's ALL during the Boo saga... So literally days apart.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
It's really weird. Because already in the Saiyan Saga we're introduced to the idea of Gohan having greater potential than Goku, this is reinforced in the Cell Saga.
When Gohan had his potential unlocked by Elder Kai, he wasn't able to transform to increase his power further. Effectively he was as powerful as he could be in his base form.
Gohan's "Ultimate" form essentially made all of his latent power/potential accessible in his base form. In that respect it was the most efficient powerup in DB history, as he no longer had to waste ki/stamina with transformations and whatnot.
We also know that Gohan was well above SS3 Gotenks, who, in turn, was implied to be significantly above even SS3 Goku. That's the original canon/manga scaling, at least.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 9th, 2021 at 05:30 PM
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