Problem is if its hard to prove then its hard to prove. Thats why its vital for victims to understand to go to the police right away and show any signs of bruising with DNA evidence e.t.c. But why do you need millions of dollars? I dont believe in monetary compensation for these crimes. To me that will just encourage more accusations.
Look at it this way, if its difficult to prove and know for sure then youre potentially tainting an innocent man. If we do know for sure then there should be criminal action taken. So again the whole civil thing without criminal charges just doesnt make sense to me. Unless they can show they werent able to work all these years due to the trauma. That might make sense.
People get monetary damages because the event derails their life in so many ways that can't be undone, and money is an imperfect way of "righting" things, but it's often the only means practically available.
I think damages awards get out of control in the American system, where there's a greater emphasis on punitive awards versus purely compensatory... but it's a different context in America. Maybe you need awards of that size to dissuade particular categories of bad actors.
As for your second paragraph: civil trials don't have a risk of jail time, so the defendant gets fewer procedural advantages, including a lower burden of proof. The burden is still on the plaintiff to make her case.
I don't really disagree with that as without compelling corroborative evidence or a particularly unlikeable accused, rape cases are notoriously difficult to prosecute. That said, the concept of too much renumeration to a victim if the accused is a billionaire politician is somewhat ridiculous.
My friend, I have seen reporting and articles during, I think, the Johnny Depp witch hunts where the jury is instructed they may find a verdict based on nothing but how well a story is told, without any evidence at all.
Our legal system is a joke. It's nothing to rig a case here, jury stacking, kickbacks/bribes, intentionally saddling someone with an incompetent defense attorney (That one is obviously more done in criminal cases)
Then you hear the stories about one juror basically bullying everyone into agreeing with an outcome, or just wearing people down. It's all about money or attacking them with a weapon, and the general public is hopelessly compromised by too much Trash TV and disgruntled underpaid neurotic educators under the thumb of w soulless bureaucracy, the US sucks.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Intentionally leaving out any mention of Trump because not really my point.
Republican politician, Republican administration, railroad hatchet job, prosecutor gets no punishment but commits suicide.
US history is riddled with examples of corruption and realpolitiks, I really have no faith in our government or business leaders.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Except of course in the Depp case, the legal systems worked. Most everyone assumed Depp was guilty at first, Disney and other studios backed away, then in court the truth came out that Depp was actually the victim, his name was exonerated and he was awarded the damages.
She should have received a lot more than just 5 million. Trump smeared her name, putting her in danger from his cult as he's done many times before with others who speak out against him.
She received death threats from Trumpers after the accusation was laid, to the point she started keeping a loaded gun next to her bed.
You know Depp was found guilty before he was found innocent right?
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
You mean when he lost to the Sun? That wasnt a guilty verdict. IIRC He was suing them and harder burden to prove when going against freedom of the press.
Absolutely, it's the lack of acknowledgement of that part of the argument from poster: designation "Smurph" that makes no sense, he has said before he has a legal background which is possible and I have no reason to disbelieve him, which is why I am hopeful he will add another layer of information to his comments, so we can see where the hell he is coming from.
Last edited by Old Man Whirly! on May 11th, 2023 at 07:51 AM
I have no idea what point you think you're making. I never commented on the fairness of Carroll's verdict or award. Designation "Smurph" made me lol tho.
So I assumed prosecutor. Or something not defense oriented.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
So, do you see financial renumeration awarded in the low millions as punitive when the individual being asked to pay it has literally billions. Could awards rather than being punitive, perhaps still be ill equipped to cope with or dissuade the criminal ultra wealthy. Perhaps this is where civil law in and of itself is not a process that will have any affect at dissuading the likes of Trump from criminality, instead more often than not it is a tool to be used by them against their enemies.
Compensation and punishment are just two overarching principles (among others) that a legal system might rely on in developing its system for damages.
In a purely compensatory system, Trump's wealth would be irrelevant. Compensation is entirely about the harm done to the plaintiff. Of course, if Trump had no money, there would be no point in suing him, so his wealth is still a part of the overall narrative.
Punitive principles might increase an award to dissuade particular conduct. Then the focus shifts from solely about the harm done to the plaintiff, to the condemnable conduct of the defendant. To my mind, that's when Trump's resources and power become relevant.
well aware of all content in your first two paragraphs as they really only dovetail into mine. You raised the point about us damages being punitive for a purpose of dissuading certain groups. I gave an answer as to why that wasn't and couldn't be the case, this was in a discussion about Trumps verdict in a thread about Trumps legal problems for context. To be fair the concept of "compensation", for rape is equally floored. One truth in your unusually constructed conversationo, is that civil cases are easier to win and that's in many ways a good thing, the bar of
"is it more likely that an event happened" does though have understandable flaws and could never be used where life or liberty is at stake.
Last edited by Old Man Whirly! on May 11th, 2023 at 07:07 PM
Also at least in the US system punitive damages are as much about giving a lesson to the party that wronged as it is about restitution to that who was wrong. So money or wealth very much does make a difference and an awards in a civil case. Nothing I am a lawyer but this is just something every American knows at this point.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Fair criticism. Yes they say asses assume but the other side of that is at least in my experience asking questions could get you in as much Social trouble as assuming wrong so I have to learn to keep my questions to a minimum the same way one learns not to take a biscuit from a dog in case you get bitten even if you're a dog never seems to have a problem with it. Not to compare you to a dog LOL just saying.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
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