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How is Nintendo successful?
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Ridley_Prime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And to be frank, all of the Mario games post-64 were just garbage for kids.

Definitely disagree. Super Mario Galaxy was great, Odyssey was solid too. SM64 was great for its time, but pretty aged compared to what came after. There was Sunshine also, but it was highly overrated imo. Outside of Mario Kart, never really cared for the spinoffs, but even that's gotten stale or sterile now.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Lastly, Super Metroid was amazeballs, but Metroid Zero was not.

Metroid Prime though? Apart from one unwanted mistimed spinoff on the 3DS, Metroid in general was never cartoony at least, which always helped it stand out for me amongst the other IP's.

I was otherwise similarly done with Nintendo for awhile around the Wii era, but yeah.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
Metal Gear Solid >>>>>>>>>> Mario 64 and Zelda combined.

I like me some Metal Gear too, but can't really compare a stealth action to a platformer like Mario. They're different beasts.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2021 08:58 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
The original Nintendo and Gameboy are well documented as cheaply made. Being "sturdy" does not equate to being more sophisticated, your clunky old brick cell phone could survive a drop out the window onto concrete while your modern phone cracks sitting in your pocket.

Right. Which is what I said.

We were talking about how polished the finished products are, not how sophisticated it is. Nintendo games aren't generally the ones needing to be bugfixed constantly after release.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2021 09:28 PM
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Stealth Moose
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Definitely disagree. Super Mario Galaxy was great, Odyssey was solid too. SM64 was great for its time, but pretty aged compared to what came after. There was Sunshine also, but it was highly overrated imo. Outside of Mario Kart, never really cared for the spinoffs, but even that's gotten stale or sterile now.


I didn't care much for Galaxy or Odyssey. Part of the problem is that Mario himself hasn't aged well and if the gameplay isn't really fun and innovative, why bother? I remember being so excited to play Mario 3 I convinced my mother to call me in sick for the day. Now, you could give me a copy of Galaxy and Odyssey or whatever new Mario game is coming out and I probably wouldn't waste my time installing it. There's just too much competition now and Mario was fun when I was a kid. I'm a grown up now.

As for spin offs, the Mario Kart games have done well enough up until 7, but the Mario Party games and other spinoffs have taken steps back. The Switch Mario Party actually has fewer maps and modes than MP1.

Now keep in mind I got tons of mileage out of the older Mario games, including the All Stars Remakes, Japanese Mario 2, etc. But I was also a lot younger back than and my expectations were lower on what I thought was a fun and acceptable game. You couldn't sell me any new Mario games at this point and for the full price sticker regardless of its age, Nintendo assures that I won't even touch the older stuff a few years after their release.

quote:
Metroid Prime though? Apart from one unwanted mistimed spinoff on the 3DS, Metroid in general was never cartoony at least, which always helped it stand out for me amongst the other IP's.


True, but they changed the formula up a few times and not always for the better. I think Super Metroid was probably my all time favorite.


quote:
I like me some Metal Gear too, but can't really compare a stealth action to a platformer like Mario. They're different beasts.


True, but MGS games aged better and can be remade. I had a discussion with a friend of mine about how I can't stand most of the retro pixel art games coming out on Steam anymore, and I realized it's because I expect game design to move forward and innovate. Going backwards sucks, unless you can really ride the nostalgia. Which is something I just can't do anymore.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
The original Nintendo and Gameboy are well documented as cheaply made. Being "sturdy" does not equate to being more sophisticated, your clunky old brick cell phone could survive a drop out the window onto concrete while your modern phone cracks sitting in your pocket.


In all fairness, my original SNES got a ginger ale upended into it by a vengeful mother, and a cartridge ripped in half down the seam, and both still work over 20 years since both incidents happen. They might be cheaply made, but for another time.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2021 09:52 PM
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NemeBro
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There is only a single video game I can think of that might exceed Odyssey in terms of gameplay versatility (Metal Gear Solid V btw). The amount of ways you can use Cappy to traverse the various levels and game worlds through capturing or as a jumping platform gives skilled players a depth of choice that exceeds any Mario game and possibly any platformer, at least that I can recall, for I haven't played many platformers of late so there could be a lower profile title I don't know of.


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Last edited by NemeBro on Sep 18th, 2021 at 10:11 PM

Old Post Sep 18th, 2021 10:05 PM
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Ridley_Prime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I didn't care much for Galaxy or Odyssey. Part of the problem is that Mario himself hasn't aged well and if the gameplay isn't really fun and innovative, why bother? I remember being so excited to play Mario 3 I convinced my mother to call me in sick for the day. Now, you could give me a copy of Galaxy and Odyssey or whatever new Mario game is coming out and I probably wouldn't waste my time installing it. There's just too much competition now and Mario was fun when I was a kid. I'm a grown up now.

As for spin offs, the Mario Kart games have done well enough up until 7, but the Mario Party games and other spinoffs have taken steps back. The Switch Mario Party actually has fewer maps and modes than MP1.

Now keep in mind I got tons of mileage out of the older Mario games, including the All Stars Remakes, Japanese Mario 2, etc. But I was also a lot younger back than and my expectations were lower on what I thought was a fun and acceptable game. You couldn't sell me any new Mario games at this point and for the full price sticker regardless of its age, Nintendo assures that I won't even touch the older stuff a few years after their release.

True, but they changed the formula up a few times and not always for the better. I think Super Metroid was probably my all time favorite.

True, but MGS games aged better and can be remade. I had a discussion with a friend of mine about how I can't stand most of the retro pixel art games coming out on Steam anymore, and I realized it's because I expect game design to move forward and innovate. Going backwards sucks, unless you can really ride the nostalgia. Which is something I just can't do anymore.

I think part of why Mario hasn't aged that well in general is because he's a corporate mascot like Mickey Mouse and thus isn't allowed to have a personality or much story or whathaveyou. I still have fun with the gameplay of his games though, and I play plenty different or more mature things too; doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. I get you though, and can understand having just outgrown a series like that.

With how non-innovative and bloated AAA gaming can also get, I don't blame people for being nostalgic for pixel art/sprite stuff made by Indies, but that's different markets for different people.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2021 10:09 PM
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Smasandian
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I would argue that AAA and indie titles have the same problem. In both categories, there is games that do something cool...and games that just follow the same outline as previous.

For instance, just have a Game Pass account and the amount of indie games that come on it....they all fall in the same type of categories....roguelike, survival, card based....then ....well..roguelike...well....this game is a bullet type rogue like with 16 bit type graphics....

Old Post Sep 19th, 2021 01:41 PM
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Stealth Moose
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I think part of why Mario hasn't aged that well in general is because he's a corporate mascot like Mickey Mouse and thus isn't allowed to have a personality or much story or whathaveyou. I still have fun with the gameplay of his games though, and I play plenty different or more mature things too; doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. I get you though, and can understand having just outgrown a series like that.

With how non-innovative and bloated AAA gaming can also get, I don't blame people for being nostalgic for pixel art/sprite stuff made by Indies, but that's different markets for different people.


That's fair. For my own thoughts, it's not the pixel art itself which I detest, but the lack of creativity when it comes to using them. If a game is pixel graphics but has some kind of awesome story telling element, or solid strategy behind it, etc. I'm fine with it. Actually, the lack of focus on the graphics means the devs can instead work on other important things.

But there's a LOT of mediocre to garbage tier pixel art top down shooters, platformers, and Castlevania SotN clones on Steam and elsewhere, and I'm done with that. Don't reinvent the wheel just to make ten bucks.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Smasandian
I would argue that AAA and indie titles have the same problem. In both categories, there is games that do something cool...and games that just follow the same outline as previous.

For instance, just have a Game Pass account and the amount of indie games that come on it....they all fall in the same type of categories....roguelike, survival, card based....then ....well..roguelike...well....this game is a bullet type rogue like with 16 bit type graphics....


I'm also kind of sick of rogue-like games. I played in the era of original NES hard titles, and beat my fair share of difficult ones like Battletoads, Ninja Gaiden trilogy, all three Castlevanias and Contra 1/2. But back then I was in single digits and had all the time in the world and four games to work on. Now I have a Steam library close to 500 and I just don't give a shit about how 'hard' your game is because I work full time and I want to relax and be a space man or a pirate, not strugglebus just to get the most out of your game.

Like, Darkest Dungeons has an amazing atmosphere, story, and combat mechanic, but the roguelike mechanics are just fake difficulty that detract from it. Same with Bloodborne; absolutely awesome storyline and atmosphere, with interesting combat, ruined by tryhard Dark Souls BS.


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Old Post Sep 20th, 2021 01:17 PM
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Smasandian
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Some are OK...I agree with you about roguelike games...but they are built for others that would have time.

Hades did a real good job allowing people who do not have the time to be able to beat it. It introduces a brilliant God Mode feature....where it gives a blanket 20% damage reduction bonus, which increases whenever you die by like 1% or something like that...

And then you can just turn it off at any time....so I was turning it on during boss fights.

Old Post Sep 20th, 2021 02:45 PM
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StyleTime
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I do actually enjoy a challenge in my games, but I am definitely more selective about which games I "git gud" at nowadays. This is especially true for Challenge Modes/Time Trials/Boss Rush/Speedrun features in games.

I'm not running through hyper enhanced versions of all the bosses or swarms of enemies when I could just move on to a brand new game. I get others like it, but that stuff barely registers as real content for me. With rare exceptions.

I've also become much more okay with cheese tactics and abusing A.I. blindspots when need be. Hell, in Catherine, I straight up skipped the actual battles and just played it like a point-and-click adventure game. I'm glad they included that option, because that puzzle battle system requires way more effort than I'm willing to give.


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Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 21st, 2021 at 07:03 PM

Old Post Sep 21st, 2021 06:49 PM
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