Vos has quite handily stomped General Grievous, an opponent who Ahsoka has never successfully matched.
On top of that, Vos has fought on par with Count Dooku, who has held his own quite evenly with Mace Windu in a canon duel. Not to mention Dooku's duels with Yoda, or general superiority to Anakin all the way up until Revenge of the Sith.
Ahsoka's circumstantial victory against Maul is her best feat to date, and even then the duel makes it clear that Maul was Ahsoka's superior as a martial artist, with him disarming her three times over the course of their fight, and only losing when she exploits the environment they're on.
Maul is generally held to be a step below Count Dooku, and by extension, I'd hold him a bit below Quinlan Vos as well. Ahsoka loses.
I'd say she took advantage of his frustration (of her not joining him) and his overconfidence that he'd already won. So his psyche more than the environment.
Because in terms of environment, he'd already slashed one side of that beam, he only had to slash the other, when he stopped and gave her a last chance to join him.
But I guess it's an ongoing joke for Maul that it doesn't end well for him against inferior opponents when fighting on a cliff edge.
I agree for the most part. Though OP specifies "peak" versions of these characters, so it's worth noting that Rebels Ahsoka was stated to be "vastly more skilled" than TCW Ahsoka: https://i.ibb.co/m89L3V3/2.jpg
...So I'd assume that would be her peak?
But the obvious problem with that is Ahsoka's lack of quantifiable feats in that era. She did clown the Inquisitors with ease, and contended with Vader decently enough for a few minutes(which is, imo, her best feat in canon, given how heavily Vader has been wanked across the board)... So I guess the only real question is if we think that a peak Vos could match(or exceed) those showings?
Of course he could rape the Inquisitors endlessly, but could he do better against Vader than Ahsoka did? That's harder to say.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 1st, 2021 at 02:49 PM
I don't know how I've never seen that image before! What's the source on that one, if you don't mind me asking? I thought I'd seen all the Ahsoka accolades out there, but this one has eluded me, I guess.
As for Ahsoka's fight against Vader, there are too many circumstances around that one for me to consider it her best canon feat (despite Vader's enormous wanking in canon). But hey, to each their own. This is all subjective anyway.
As for Quinlan Vos vs Vader, I'm honestly hoping we'll get to see that play out at some point. Vos is implied to still be alive in Soule's 2017 Vader run (appearing on a list of surviving Jedi that are being sought by the Inquisitors), but I'm assuming he's dead by the time of A New Hope. Which leaves a nearly 19 year window in which Vader and Vos could eventually cross paths.
Personally, I think his performance would at least match Ahsoka's, considering how he acquitted himself against the likes of Ventress and Dooku. There's an ongoing debate about Dooku vs. Vader in canon (personally, I'm firmly of the belief that Vader is the superior), but I think it's fair to say they're at least in the same tier. Considering Vos fought roughly on par with Dooku multiple times throughout Dark Disciple (with circumstance playing a large role in which of the two would come out on top in any fight), I'd say that at least puts Vos in the same ballpark as Vader.
Ahsoka, on the other hand, was pretty much stuck on the defensive for 90% of her fight against Vader, with only a couple moments when she was able to push back at all. Despite her advantages of having two weapons and being considerably more mobile, it was all she could do to just defend herself from Vader's onslaught. And ultimately, Vader had her beat fair and square when Ezra intervened.
I hold Rebels Ahsoka basically a step down from Vader. Still capable of fighting him, but not really his match. While I can't say Vos actually stands much of a chance of beating Vader, I do see the fight being more even. Probably more similar to Vader's fight against Eeth Koth, with both trading blows back and forth, getting hits in on one another until Vader ultimately wins out through a combination of durability, superior skill with the Force, and sheer tenacity.
Come to think of it, Eeth Koth vs. Quinlan Vos could be a good match up...
^ cool but hasn’t it been stated canonically Maul is a better light saber duelist than Dooku ie ranked higher . The person that wrote the canon novel or Comic on maul he even stated he thinks that maul is superior then Dooku In his opinion.. Also Savage seemed to disarm Dooku and did pretty well against him and Dooku had to resort to using force lightning on savage, savage also force pushed Dooku easily .. also maul as we know is savages superior ..
and mother Talzin she seemed equally Matched with mace windu in their light saber duels.. In the comics when maul was on a ship he briefly fought mace at the same time he kicked some other jedi then there was some explosion maul dodged it easily while windu and the others couldn’t pick it up fast hence got knocked back by it ..
When maul fought sidious in the beginning it looked like Sid’s was taking it easy like a cake walk but towards the end of the fight it Almost looked like Sid’s was kind of struggling a bit as maul got in a kick and got Sid’s on his back foot etc till he got disarmed .. so Iam thinking maybe maul could be equal to Vos in sabers or slightly better .. because didn’t Vos beat Dooku when Dooku was injured ? Hence didn’t seem fair and square ?
^ A case can be made for Maul putting up a decent fight against Dooku, but most would agree Dooku is the better combatant, although Maul likely had the potential to be > Dooku.
You threw out a ton of points in one post, so I'm going to try to tackle them one by one.
The same source also has Darth Vader above Darth Sidious. This leads to either two conclusions: Either the "top 5 red lightsaber wielders" was referring to their infamy/popularity instead of their actual in-universe skill, or it was referring explicitly to technical skill with a lightsaber and not overall combative ability. You could argue that Darth Vader has greater degree of skill with a lightsaber than Sidious due to Vader using his blade far, far more frequently, but Sidious is unquestionably a greater combatant than Vader. By that same token, Maul may very well have a higher degree of technical skill and knowledge with the lightsaber than Dooku (unlikely in my opinion, however), but Dooku is still widely considered to be the superior combatant.
I believe the source you're referring to here was actually Sam Witwer, though I may be mistaken. Either way, the quote isn't to be taken as canon. It was just the opinion of a writer or voice actor stated outside of any in-universe story telling. It literally has no worth.
Savage at the time was experiencing a massive rage boost due to the exact circumstances, and he already had a considerable raw strength advantage against Dooku. One of Makashi's biggest flaws (Dooku's preferred fighting style) is overwhelming brute strength against Makashi's rather delicate one-handed grip. Savage's ability to disarm Dooku in that one instance was largely due to how their fighting styles matched up against one another, and Savage's circumstantial boost. For further evidence of this, recall that Obi-Wan managed to fight off both Savage and Maul at the same time, and even sever Savage's arm. And Obi-Wan at the time was below Dooku as a combatant.
And sure, Dooku ultimately just dismissed Savage with Force lightning because... Why wouldn't he? If you were fighting someone who was far, far physically stronger than you, but you knew you could casually dismiss them with an ability they simply had no answer for, why wouldn't you spam that ability against them?
Maul beat Savage through skill and finesse, which Savage was severely lacking in, coupled with Maul's unique and unorthodox cybernetics at the time. Yes, I do rank Maul at that time above Savage, as a general combatant. But the advantages Savage held against Dooku (namely his brute strength and raw, rage-enhanced Force might) would not be shared by Maul. Maul quite simply is not as physically powerful as Savage, which is what made the difference when Savage fought Dooku.
That fight was incredibly, incredibly brief and mostly happened off-screen. To say that Talzin seemed equally matched with Mace would be disingenuous based off of what very, very little we have to go on.
It's much more fair to look at Talzin's duel with Sidious, where Sidious very, very swiftly disarms her while also remarking how she does not share Dooku's level of skill (she was currently possessing Dooku's body at the time). That's two characters Mace has fought evenly with (Dooku and Sidious) who Talzin simply doesn't measure up to.
The fight you're referring to lasted for the entirety of a single comic panel, in which Maul and Mace crossed blades while Maul kicked Aayla Secura in the head. All that can be gleaned from that single panel is that Secura wasn't on the same playing field as Maul and Mace. As for dodging the explosion, the rocket fired was actually aimed at the two Jedi, not at Maul, and he was warned by his comrades that they were firing the rocket to begin with. Of course he would have an easier time dodging an attack not meant for him than the two Jedi would have dodging an explosion actually targeted at them.
Sidious, at any point in that fight, could have just stopped fighting and ragdolled Maul with the Force. This was proven both at the very start of the fight and the very end of the fight. The entire lightsaber duel as we saw it was quite literally just Sidious flaunting his superiority and showing off and having fun. Sure, Maul made Sidious try just a little by the end of the duel, but Palps was never in any danger of losing that fight. The only time Maul ever pressured Sidious was right after Sheev killed Maul's brother, which logically would have given Maul a significant rage boost. Up until that point, Sheev was toying with both brothers at the same time and knocking them both around with physical strikes and Force abilities. Even with the rage boost, the most Maul managed to do was land a minor kick on Sidious before getting physically overpowered, then disarmed.
I'm not disputing the idea that Maul and Vos might be in the same rough ballpark in terms of ability with a lightsaber. But I still very much hold Vos above Maul. As someone else pointed out, Vos beat Dooku when Dooku was perfectly healthy in their second duel in Dark Disciple. He also held rough parity with Dooku in both of their other duels in that novel. That's just more impressive to me than anything Maul has done. Maul has also struggled more consistently with Grievous than Vos did.
Vos bested Grievous in an extremely short fight in the novel, while Maul lost his first duel against Grievous, won the second by ambushing Grievous before Grievous could fight back, and "won" the third by Force pushing Grievous out of a hole in the wall, only for Grievous to walk right back into the room and stab Talzin.
So overall, I still hold Vos above Maul, even if there's not an enormous disparity between them. Couple that with the fact that Maul very, very much should have won his fight against Ahsoka, had it not been for his overconfidence and the environment, and I come to the conclusion that Vos should logically be above Ahsoka.
Last edited by Underachiever59 on Dec 3rd, 2021 at 07:17 AM
^ His source was Jeremy Barlow (writer of Son of Dathomir comic).
In an interview he said Mail isnt as powerful as Dooku or Vader but rivals them by sheer will (not an exact quote).
But when asked on Twitter who would win a fight between Maul and Dooku, he said Maul, but stressed it was just his opinion.
As for Maul vs Vos, if its peak Vos who beat Dooku, then no reason to think he wouldnt also beat Maul. However on any given day Maul probably has the edge.
Potentially a great fight though.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Dec 3rd, 2021 at 08:44 AM
Well, Hidalgo stated that Vader was at his peak during Rebels/ANH(though I think we can safely say that Vader's power increased even further by ESB/RotJ, given the more recent revelations in the comics...but that's neither here nor there.) This is only important because a few different sources note that Vader was Palpatine's most powerful apprentice... And not by any small margin either, as one source notes that Vader was the most powerful apprentice by "light years" -- implying a very significant gap between he, and the likes of Dooku/Maul.
So I personally believe that Vader would have been comfortably above Dooku by Rebels. I mean, he was already above Dooku during RotS, and as we know, Vader's power/skill has only been stated to have increased in the wake of his 'loss' on Mustafar(in canon). So I really see no reason to believe that he wouldn't absolutely throttle Dooku... But that's just my two cents. /shrug
Regardless, Vader was obviously superior to Ahsoka, but she still managed to hang in there for an admirable length of time(all things considered) during both 'rounds' of their fight. That being said, on one hand we have Vos, who was =/> Dooku during DD. On the other hand we have Rebels Ahsoka, who managed to contend decently against a guy who was, in all likelihood, a good bit above Dooku.
My opinion: if Vos wins, it would be an extremely hard-earned victory.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 3rd, 2021 at 02:05 PM
Nov 29th, 2021 05:00 AM
