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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Nick Gilliard: "Palpatine could have creamed [Windu] every time"


Nick Gilliard: "Palpatine could have creamed [Windu] every time"
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Stealth Moose
Umbrella Elite

Registered: Apr 2011
Location: In Ur Raccoon City


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's a good point.


It's come up in the past. Sourcebooks or encyclopedias with grand claims, end up being written from the POV of some in-universe historian or such, which makes all claims subject to bias, assumptions, and incomplete knowledge.


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2022 06:51 PM
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NewGuy01
perpetual

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yay for revisionism. GL stated that Mace actually won,

What George said is no less vague than what was on-screen, because all he did was describe what was already on-screen. That's why no one ever took this argument seriously.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
To clarify, Yoda did beat Sids in sabers. Per the original script (and implied in the movie finished version), Yoda disarmed Sidious entirely. This is supported also by a frame-by-frame watching of the office fight, because Yoda is clearly superior and Sidious is struggling to keep his defenses up, much less get in any actual offensive swings.

Yes and no. To be a little more specific, the script says that Sidious was nearly pushed off the podium, and dropped his lightsaber. It's debatable whether this is evidence of superior skill on Yoda's part; he had the advantage of much greater mobility on the platform owing to his size, whereas Sidious could only remain stationary, which isn't conducive to his fighting style.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I still can't explain how Mace got off an easily-telegraphed front kick and disarmed Sidious. Perhaps the Sheev has butterfingers and was snacking hard before his arrest crew came to get him.

I thought the novelization provided a reasonable enough explanation for how it could have happened. Mace intentionally lead the fight to the window, knowing that the Sith are relatively undisciplined and fearful of death. Palpatine's attention was split between the fight and not falling from the ledge, whereas Mace remained laser-focused, allowing him to gain the upper hand. The scene is from Mace's perspective, though, and the text implies that his read of the situation was incorrect. So as always, it's intentionally ambiguous, hence the controversy.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I mean, Dooku's got the most refined lightsaber fighting form in the PT era, and was trained by Yoda himself. The only reason he's ranked lower in general is because Anakin took him out in Episode III.

Aye. This would all be much simpler if people could accept that Anakin is just the best, but alas. ¯\_( ツ )_/¯


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2022 07:45 PM
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Tzeentch
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
If he doesnt want to risk his life against an equal or near equal then that is a form of concession. He forfeits because hes not confident enough of winning.

Certainly hard to put Dooku > Mace from that.

Anyway if they are equals thats fine with me as it would put ROTS Anakin above Mace. Heck it would put TCW Anakin equal to Windu.
I really don't understand why you're not appreciating that time was against Dooku in this situation.

If Dooku was more powerful than Mace and could defeat him with 5 more minutes of dueling time, he still would have had to flee as he didn't have 5 more minutes.

Your argument here literally boils down to "if Dooku was stronger than he would have stayed", which ignores every other strategic factor in this situation. Do you not understand the difference between a tactical victory vs a strategic one?


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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Old Post Jun 29th, 2022 08:56 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Tzeentch
I really don't understand why you're not appreciating that time was against Dooku in this situation.

If Dooku was more powerful than Mace and could defeat him with 5 more minutes of dueling time, he still would have had to flee as he didn't have 5 more minutes.

Your argument here literally boils down to "if Dooku was stronger than he would have stayed", which ignores every other strategic factor in this situation. Do you not understand the difference between a tactical victory vs a strategic one?




I understand you seem to just be saying things without anything to back it up.

Name every other supposed strategic situation which suddenly meant Dooku had to leave mid fight. Conveniently after Windu gives him a chance to surrender and threatens him otherwise.

If not then quit pretending theres any obvious in our face reason why Dooku fled. Instead accept that its merely a possibility it was a strategic retreat.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Jun 29th, 2022 at 09:31 PM

Old Post Jun 29th, 2022 09:27 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bentley
I think the important lesson to take from this development is that Windu has no feats over Dooku when it comes to sabers now shifty

GIllard still states mace is an 8 bordering 9 while dooku is merely an 8.

and disney canon still has an abundance of quotes putting him on a similar playing field to yoda.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Jun 29th, 2022 at 10:46 PM

Old Post Jun 29th, 2022 10:40 PM
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Stealth Moose
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
What George said is no less vague than what was on-screen, because all he did was describe what was already on-screen. That's why no one ever took this argument seriously.


Yes and no. To be a little more specific, the script says that Sidious was nearly pushed off the podium, and dropped his lightsaber. It's debatable whether this is evidence of superior skill on Yoda's part; he had the advantage of much greater mobility on the platform owing to his size, whereas Sidious could only remain stationary, which isn't conducive to his fighting style.


I thought the novelization provided a reasonable enough explanation for how it could have happened. Mace intentionally lead the fight to the window, knowing that the Sith are relatively undisciplined and fearful of death. Palpatine's attention was split between the fight and not falling from the ledge, whereas Mace remained laser-focused, allowing him to gain the upper hand. The scene is from Mace's perspective, though, and the text implies that his read of the situation was incorrect. So as always, it's intentionally ambiguous, hence the controversy.


Aye. This would all be much simpler if people could accept that Anakin is just the best, but alas. ¯\_( ツ )_/¯


1. GL is however in a position of canon authority. Nick Gillard is the fight choreographer, and the guy doesn't even appear to have any real swordfighting expertise compared to say, Bob Anderson who did the OT.

2. I've done an extensive frame-by-frame on this fight, and came to the conclusion that in sabers, Sidious is woefully put about. Yoda, despite far inferior reach and stature (not to mention weight) manages to unbalance Sids and trap his saber in a bind in less time then it would take for me to fill a glass of water. At one point, Yoda actually flips behind Sidious and attacks at an awkward angle from behind his head, an attack the Emperor barely deflects.

Really, I could extrapolate a lot from this. One, Yoda is augmenting his fighting style using huge Force power/reserves and Sidious can barely keep up. Two, Yoda is not only augmenting it to be more powerful/faster than the Emperor can deal with, but he's doing it in spite of being the size of a toddler. Three, when the pod rises, and Sidious has less room to work with, Yoda is still hammering him from various angles. The script notes Sids is unbalanced and loses his saber. This is conclusive superiority in terms of sabers.

And that's ignoring the Force battle, where at no point does Sids overpower Yoda, but the poor guy loses do to a ring out. The real MVP is the handrail Sidious grabbed on to, and whoever installed it basically caused the fall of the Republic.

3. I mean, yeah, that passage is ambiguous, and the ROTS novelisation has been a canon nightmare for a long time. You know, Kit Fisto's head on a desk levels of canon nightmares.

Stover is an excellent writer, and I loved Shatterpoint. There's probably parts of the novelisation I actually liked, but everyone around here just debates the fights so that's all I recall in any manner. The problem is that Stover's version of events often contradict the film version of the same events, and GL's final vision always trumps secondary sources exploring the same content. Which makes sense, because he wrote it, and under the old canon rules, his level (G-canon) was the end-all, be-all. It would be like if Tolkien came back from the dead and declared that Legolas would be unable to solo Mordor like he nearly did in the movies.

4. Anakin isn't the best. He's the most aggressive, and he has incredible strength in the Force, which correlates into powerful, aggressive battle moves. But he's young, stupid, myopic, largely untrained unlike Obi-Wan/Dooku/Mace/Yoda/Sids and doesn't seem to use his Force powers offensively to compensate.

Really, Anakin's edge on Dooku centers on two things: he's objectively stronger in the Force, and Dooku was trying to work him up into a Dark Side frenzy instead of capitalizing on the openings he made fighting the Jedi up until that point. Comparatively, Dooku's got decades more training, an objectively better saber-to-saber dueling style, better mastery over the Force powers he does display, and a cooler head.

Anakin's head-on rage fighting style is best displayed later in Mustafar, where he fails to make headway with an opponent entirely on the defensive and utilizing the environment to their advantage. Obi-Wan isn't stronger than Anakin or necessarily a more talented fighter; he's a wiser, defensive fighter and he took Anakin apart. Dooku is a wiser fighter as well and had he been playing for keeps, I'm pretty confident he could have won.

But Anakin has plot armor thicker than a Buick, so he can't win. Enter PIS.


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2022 12:40 PM
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JediMaster97
Senior Member

Registered: May 2011
Location: Germany


 

While it feels kind of nonsensical to revisit this over a decade old debate - especially since, apparently, we now have that recent canon quote that explicitly claims that Sidious was toying with Mace - there is still something interesting people seem to have missed.

As others have said, even the novel, which at this point probably isn't even canon anymore, is kind of vague when it comes to this fight.

But there is this one moment from the fight that I recently (re)discovered:"His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside."

Maybe I'm mistaken, but to me it seems like Plapatine was trying to force push Windu out of the shattered window and Mace barely avoided it by doing a force push himself.

Doesn't this imply that Palpatine was actually trying to kill Mace?

I know this is outdated and completely different than what actually happens in the movie anyway. But since we're bringing up old quotes, I though this might be interesting to share.

Old Post Jun 30th, 2022 01:36 PM
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Tzeentch
#gottem

Registered: Dec 2009
Location: Morgan's Maxim


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I understand you seem to just be saying things without anything to back it up.
What is there for me to back up? You're making the positive claim assertion that Mace is stronger than Dooku based off things said and done in this fight. My response is that your evidence is nothing more than an inference.

quote:

Name every other supposed strategic situation which suddenly meant Dooku had to leave mid fight.

- Dooku is a more important asset to the CIS than Mace is to the Republic Army, ergo losing Dooku or trading 1 for 1 is a strategic victory for the Republic
- Dooku does not know if/when Clone reinforcements will arrive
- The solar eclipse that allowed the ghosts to exist on the surface passed seconds after Dooku left (you almost certainly didn't actually read the entire issue), meaning Dooku was losing his tactical advantage over the Clone army

quote:
Instead accept that its merely a possibility it was a strategic retreat. [/B]
It being "merely a possibility" supports my argument more than it supports yours, so thank you for agreeing with me I guess?


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Old Post Jun 30th, 2022 03:37 PM
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Stealth Moose
Umbrella Elite

Registered: Apr 2011
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JediMaster97
While it feels kind of nonsensical to revisit this over a decade old debate - especially since, apparently, we now have that recent canon quote that explicitly claims that Sidious was toying with Mace - there is still something interesting people seem to have missed.

As others have said, even the novel, which at this point probably isn't even canon anymore, is kind of vague when it comes to this fight.

But there is this one moment from the fight that I recently (re)discovered:"His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside."

Maybe I'm mistaken, but to me it seems like Plapatine was trying to force push Windu out of the shattered window and Mace barely avoided it by doing a force push himself.

Doesn't this imply that Palpatine was actually trying to kill Mace?

I know this is outdated and completely different than what actually happens in the movie anyway. But since we're bringing up old quotes, I though this might be interesting to share.


I mean, if it's novelization content, again, I'd take it with a large grain of salt. We don't see any TK on behalf of Windu in the final film edit, so it seems unlikely that such TK occurred. It is shameful that GL's final vision of the fight was lackluster and kind of slow because he wanted to use the real actors instead of doing what he did with Dooku (painting their faces on far better fighters). There's some shots where it's clearly stand-ins or CGI (Sids leaping IIRC) but the fight has no real meat to it, and Force powers don't come into play until Sidious pulls out his lightning card. I think this is part of why it's so ambiguous, because it's badly shot and you can't easily tell who's better as a result.

If the concept is that Sidious planned the whole thing and knew Anakin would come, so he decided to lose the fight, it's one hell of an asspull. But then again a lot of movie-Sids' cunning comes from other people in the plot doing dumb shit and then he goes "I HAVE FORSEEN THIS BRUH" after the fact. Sids had no contingency plan if Skywalker turned on him, or Mace took him out before Skywalker got there. If Kit Fisto was a secret badass, or the other Jedi Masters didn't huddle up in the door. Maybe if they decided to amass more knights before they attacked, or went to the police instead. Hey, maybe if they just remotely looked at the camera in his office, or planted a wire on Anakin.

And it goes on and on. IF the assumption is that Sidious planned to throw the fight so he could press Skywalker's guilt button and win somehow, THEN it stands to reason it's utter contrived shit and doesn't make sense. It also doesn't conclusively prove that he would have won either, and I'd argue it's extremely implausible for him to have a greater understanding of lightsaber fighting than the second-in-command of the Order who invented the first new saber style (Vaapad, based on the complex Juyo form which itself borrows from many other forms) in centuries.


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2022 04:05 PM
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Dominis
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Physically nowhere.....


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. GL is however in a position of canon authority.


GL never contradicted that Sidious may have threw the fight tho. In fact, he kinda implies it when he says Sidious pretends to be weak and lose his powers the moment Anakin walks in. And from the movie alone, it's made clear that Sidious always planned on Anakin showing up, hence his line "if the jedi destroy me, any chance of saving Padme will be lost."

If Sidious felt that he needed Anakin's help from the beginning and couldn't defeat Mace on his own, why would he sit there by himself so relaxed waiting on Mace and the jedi to show up? Why would he even convince Anakin to go tell Mace, knowing it would lead Mace right to him? That would make less sense.

Initially, it does seem that GL was going to make Windu legitimately win the fight (I'm guessing because of Samuel L. Jackson's demands to not go out like a punk, not necessarily because GL meant for Sidious to be some mid-tier fighter who has to rely mostly on manipulation), but in the commentary he explains how he changed the context to that scene, and made it more of a situation Sidious manipulated in order to force Anakin's hand. At least that's how many of us interpreted Lucas's commentary. Now it seems that we have a source which confirms that's exactly what Sidious did.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
when the pod rises, and Sidious has less room to work with, Yoda is still hammering him from various angles. The script notes Sids is unbalanced and loses his saber.



Iirc, the script also says that Yoda left the chancellors podium first, whereas in the movie we see him leaping from it following Sidious right before the hurling of the senate pod sequence. So really, the script doesn't align perfectly with the movie either or Yoda should have been in Palpatine's position having the high ground.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And that's ignoring the Force battle, where at no point does Sids overpower Yoda, but the poor guy loses do to a ring out.



There are two times in their fight where Sidious could have killed Yoda had he not stopped his attacks to laugh taunt and gloat. The first is when he KO'd Yoda with lightning, the second is when he stopped throwing numerous senate pods to laugh as Yoda was preparing to throw the one.

Not to mention, if your opinion that the anti-gravs on the pods were on is true, then that would make Sidious look even more superior in the force than Yoda than he already does. Even if gravity is not applied to an object, in order to move it, it would still require a force greater than the object's mass (unless you think ships in space are light and you'd be able to push them with your body?), and Sidious wasn't just moving the senate pods, he was literally ragdolling them with such force that they were shattering on impact, WITHOUT the force of gravity to aid him. Yoda, on the other hand, required far more effort with just one (remember if the anti gravs were on, then gravity wasn't working against Yoda while throwing it in an upward direction, so it'd require the same amount of force to throw upward as it would be to throw downward, and yet Sidious was throwing several far faster than Yoda managed to throw one.)

The anti gravs being turned on also does not mean Sidious was using controls to move them. The movie shows sparks when being ripped from their restraints, suggesting force. Sidious also aims the pods in the direction of his hands, suggesting a force throw, he's not focusing on some controls.


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Last edited by Dominis on Jul 5th, 2022 at 12:32 PM

Old Post Jul 5th, 2022 12:29 PM
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Trocity
Undefeated and Undisputed

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People think he was manipulating the controls of the pods to move them? LOL.

No bias there.


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Old Post Jul 6th, 2022 04:31 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Tzeentch
What is there for me to back up? You're making the positive claim assertion that Mace is stronger than Dooku based off things said and done in this fight. My response is that your evidence is nothing more than an inference.



No I didn't. I said Dooku "seemed" to concede. But they seemed even before then.

English is your friend.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Tzeentch
- Dooku is a more important asset to the CIS than Mace is to the Republic Army, ergo losing Dooku or trading 1 for 1 is a strategic victory for the Republic
- Dooku does not know if/when Clone reinforcements will arrive
- The solar eclipse that allowed the ghosts to exist on the surface passed seconds after Dooku left (you almost certainly didn't actually read the entire issue), meaning Dooku was losing his tactical advantage over the Clone army



First 2 points are way too general.

Third point may be valid, but not as obvious as you've made out. That said he also had his droid forces there.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Tzeentch
It being "merely a possibility" supports my argument more than it supports yours, so thank you for agreeing with me I guess?


It does nothing to negate my initial point, which was they seemed even until Dooku ran/seemed to concede. You're really arguing for no apparent reason here.


Anyway I just noticed in the dialogue Dooku states "Unfortunately" implying he would have liked to stay and fight. So I have no reason to further argue this. Still I'd suggest you were way too argumentative over my initial assertion which I still think was completely reasonable.

Old Post Jul 7th, 2022 11:36 AM
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Stealth Moose
Umbrella Elite

Registered: Apr 2011
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Trocity
People think he was manipulating the controls of the pods to move them? LOL.

No bias there.


It's in the movie. The sounds activate when he's moving the pods, same as when the pods move around the senate chamber during hearings. Also, he did not even try to block/stop the upwards slow moving pod Yoda threw later in the fight.

This calls his ability to do it legitimately into question. Assuming this is bias is some pretty critical thinking though, congrats.


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Old Post Jul 9th, 2022 08:37 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Star Wars has never been well-written. It has always been a black and white children's story with no room for ambiguities or nuance. thumb up

A new hope was very well written. Clinic in airtight writing. In reality star wars like every massive fictional property has varied in quality.

Old Post Jul 15th, 2022 01:27 AM
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juyomaster34
Senior Member

Registered: May 2011
Location: Haruun Kal


 

This seems to be the NEW troll.
Aiight,let's get to it.
In my opinion no Palpatine couldn't have creamed Windu everytime.
Windu was the Chosen one to duel Sidious.

He beat Palpatine.
No throwing the fight which is BS,
Toying?! with Windu?! For awhile.
After Sidious couldn't take him down quickly,he had to resort to trickery?!
But he can cream Windu everytime?!(Seriously)???

Sidious had to get serious.
He had to take Windu seriously.
Regardless of what he thought he knew about Vaapad.
The question is did Sidious understand it ?

As for Dooku being superior?
He is not.
There was a new master duelist and a new master of Form VII.

His name is Mace Windu.
Besides his respect and friendship for Dooku he wouldn't kill him.

The sparring between them at that time was just that, sparring.
When they did duel Dooku fled. His Magna guards interfered while he escaped.
Sidious was caught off guard by not only Mace Windu but by Vaapad itself.

Vaapad is not Juyo,they're not the same.
It doesn't have Juyo's weaknesses.
And what does Sidious do regardless of who was coming or present
He resorts to trickery,instead of proving that he could cream Mace every time as y'all claim.
The fact is he couldn't.
Sidious could cream every other Jedi everytime except Windu and Yoda.

Before y'all scream Anakin,
Anakin had a chance to duel Sidious.
Anakin chose cowardice.
He chose to kneel instead killing the very enemy he sworn to destroy.
After that he ends up killing Pademae' anyway and never learned the power to save anyone!!

So out of fear he takes Windu's sword hand while Windu is in mid strike of delivering the killing blow to Palpatine,leaving Windu open for Palpatine's Sith lightning attack.

Fear of Palpatine and fear of loosing Pademae' in which Palpatine put the vision in Anakin's head in order for him to turn.

Palpatine admits this in Rise Of Skywalker,terrible movie but he shows Kylo he was the voices and the visions,this fool was Snoke.
Through trickery Palpatine could cream anyone everytime.
In a straight up lightsaber duel against his match or his mirror,I don't think so.
Palpatine isn't creaming anything.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2022 08:12 PM
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relentless1
Dark Overlord of KMC

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: Your Moms house


 

as far as Sidious vs Yoda lets not forget that the terrain HEAVILY favoured Yoda when they were fighting in the little Chancellors podium; Sidious likes to flip and swing large as seen in his duel with Mace as well as the Zabrak brothers... had that fight went down in say, the Geonosian area then it'd be a different fight altogether.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2022 10:31 PM
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ozz81
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Australia


 

Sorry a bit confused by this all : so Sids feigned or pretended to lose against Mace to turn Anakin to dark side or not ?

Old Post Nov 2nd, 2022 12:54 AM
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relentless1
Dark Overlord of KMC

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: Your Moms house


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ozz81
Sorry a bit confused by this all : so Sids feigned or pretended to lose against Mace to turn Anakin to dark side or not ?



yes. Palpatine took a dive so he'd look weak and vulnerable to Anakin making him easier to sympathize for and turn Anakin to the dark side

Old Post Nov 2nd, 2022 11:03 AM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by relentless1
as far as Sidious vs Yoda lets not forget that the terrain HEAVILY favoured Yoda when they were fighting in the little Chancellors podium; Sidious likes to flip and swing large as seen in his duel with Mace as well as the Zabrak brothers... had that fight went down in say, the Geonosian area then it'd be a different fight altogether.



Well thats speculation. But remember it was Palpatines choice to take the fight there.

And if it wasnt then that means Yoda forced him there.

Either way, not the best excuse for Palps.

Old Post Nov 2nd, 2022 01:14 PM
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relentless1
Dark Overlord of KMC

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: Your Moms house


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well thats speculation. But remember it was Palpatines choice to take the fight there.

And if it wasnt then that means Yoda forced him there.

Either way, not the best excuse for Palps.


well we can't quite know for sure how they got onto the podium in the first place but my gut tells me Yoda pushed the fight that way seeing as how Sidioius had already tried to escape right at the start. Yoda had the strategic advantage there ill give him that but it still stands to reason he'd knowingly try to push the fight into an environment that suits him. Fact is that whole arena was advantage Yoda... until it wasn't 🤷🏽

Old Post Nov 3rd, 2022 01:09 PM
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