He killed Superman and one shot MM.
Can Colossus Kill Superman?
Can Colussus beat the shit out of Gardner?
Is Colussus as fast as Flash?
Can Colussus one shot MM?
Can Colussus not be phased by MM hardest punch?
Plus you are forgetting his feats prior to the DOS arc. He didn't get weaker.
From your logic Odin and the Asgardians were human level when fighting Mangog.
They were getting koed and killed falling 20 feet off a collapsed bridge into the water.
Thor was koed falling off Mangogs back (Mangog shook him off and the ground koed Thor).
imagine being so stupidly biased that you're sitting here trying to argue that colossus and herc could manage a goddamn thing against a bloodlusted superman.
Doomsday makes Herc his bottom, Colossus dies with Bane.
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
I'm assuming Death of Superman era Doomsday for this. Any later version is too easy of a win for debate imho.
Colossus is fairly useless here tbh. He can tank a few hits from a Juggernaut class foe, so he doesn't immediately die, but he doesn't last long either and his punches aren't going to do much. He's a distraction to buy Herc a moment.
Herc's longevity depends on Herc's mental state. Hercules has the raw physical strength to compete with the big boys. His durability and drive seem to flux significantly based on his attitude though, and on the low end he becomes a high powered jobber. On the high end though, he's beaten Thor in hand to hand combat and he murdered an evil Silver Surfer replacement (Herald of Galactus class foe). That's quite a range and the upper end of it is fairly elite. So...
If this is jovial, beer drinking-doofus Herc, then he gets hard stomped by Doomsday. There's no room for that version of Herc in this fight, and sadly this is often the version of Herc that shows up. Sure, he lasts longer than Colossus and his strikes are at least felt by Doomsday, but that's about it.
If this is the rare angry and focused, "you just killed my loved one while I watched" Herc, then we have a very different fight. Herc's well can run deep when he's in one of those rare states. It actually reminds me a lot of how Ben Grimm can go from Base Class 100 to knocking out a mind controlled Hulk when loved ones are threatened. It's the old "Dial it up to 11" factor that some characters have. Even this version of Hercules still loses a straight 1x1 fight, but he has the potential to make a drag out fight of this before falls and leave some significant damage. He even has a small win condition if he opts for a battlefield removal win. Unlike Superman, I can see Herc opting to use a combination of grapple-and-throw to toss Doomsday into space without regard for where he lands of who's otherworldly problem he becomes. It's a small margin for victory, but it's not outside of the realm of possibility.
Now there is one version of this fight that I'd love to read: The above noted version of Hercules with ALL of his prior acquired god-gear Vs. Doomsday. I'm talking Nemean Lion Skin, Golden Mace, Shield of Perseus, Helm of Hades, Adamantine tipped arrows dipped in Ceryneian Hind blood, and Sword of Peleus. Now that would be a wild fight.
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Superman did try to BFR DOS Doomsday a couple times, and either failed or it only momentary worked(like putting him deep in mud in the ocean only granted a short delay). And Superman had speed and flight aiding him.
This Doomsday ran through a team with 3 Top-Tiers in it with literally one arm tied behind his back. And keep in mind, Doomsday only got stronger through the fight. Implied in DOS, confirmed he had dynamic strength in his YEAR ONE special, and confirmed he got stronger through DOS in SUPERMAN: REBIRTH I think it was(which was written by one of the DOS writers).
__________________ Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
During this same period in the JLA comic of the time, Maxima, Martian Manhunter/Bloodwynd and Superboy all had continent level feats after being severely drained by Starbreaker (Superman couldn't even fly). But they were weak.
I know if I were to apply the same logic carter uses to his preferred characters, he'd throw a fit.
__________________ Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
Yep, I've read the DOS saga. Loved it. He's absolutely elite. But not beyond Superman class, as shown in the conclusion. Superman would typically be considered on par with folks with Silver Surfer in versus matches, and Herc, in the rare moments of rage and focus, has shown he can hang with Silver Surfer class foes. He actually murdered an evil Surfer replacement and snapped his board in Twilight of a God, even though it killed him to do so. Would he win a direct fist fight against DD? Nope. He would die. But could he last a bit? Yes. I do believe so. He can dial it up in those rare moments and push himself to Superman-esque levels for short durations, even though it kills him in the end. So can he last long enough to maneuver a grab and toss? That's the only question that matters for me.
I would love to see the scan of Superman deciding to chuck DOS Doomsday into orbit and failing. Tossing him into mud doesn't really apply here; that's a temporary stop gap at best and also not really what I was talking about. I'm specifically referring to DOS Doomsday only (no later versions) and the only (and very slight) win condition I'm proffering for a highly motivated Herc is grabbing DD and tossing him into space. Doomsday was struck several times by foes slower than Clark. You don't need to be "Flash Fast" to hit him. And he was taken off of his feet and sent flying by Maxima, who is also slower (and at least slightly weaker) than Clark. So taking DOS DD off of his feet with Hercules class strength certainly has precedence. Hercules can toss a small mountain into space; DD's weight isn't an issue IMO. The tricky part is lasting long enough to land a grab and toss. Wrestling skill is something that Herc has over Superman in spades, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility. Not very likely, but possible.
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Last edited by jaxthejester on Jun 28th, 2023 at 12:18 AM
Not really impressed by the Surfer comparison to be honest.
Superman tried and failed to fly him into space and I think tried to toss him while in that area around Cadmus with those buildings made from genetically engineered trees, though the later I'm not positive on.
The problem with your argument is Superman wasn't the only one with super speed there. Maxima has super speed herself. And while I don't argue someone has speed merely because they fought someone else with super speed, this had plenty to support Doomsday was written as having some degree of super speed. The Flash comparison even if hyperbole is a clear comparison, and numerous statements when he's facing 3 different opponents all with varying levels of super speed.
Hercules far as I know, has none. And that's even if Hercules would try that tactic.
__________________ Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
He actually does have super speed. The Marvel Handbook states he has super strength, speed, and stamina. The older Handbooks had him listed as something like 120mph foot runner, which is akin to early Whizzer. Nothing to write home about there, but his enhanced reflexes are where it's really at. Off the top of my head, when Sentry attempted a fly-by blitz on him, he sidestepped and caught him with ease and then later caught Sentry's punch fairly easily, he's caught missiles out of the air with his hands a few times, he's dodged Mjonlir at close range (Thor's throw can exceed lightspeed), he's tracked and tagged Quick Silver in mid-blitz, and he's done crazy timing stuff like catching US Agent's shield with one hand while looking the other direction and simultaneously arm wrestling someone. And he's never really struggled to keep up with speedster bricks. Heralds, Sentry, Thor, etc. He's no Superman, but he shouldn't have too much trouble landing a strike on Doomsday.
I'm honestly not sure if he'd try the tactic either. I'm only giving it as a bit of a "is there any chance in heck" scenario for Herc to win this. I suppose I don't see the attempt to fly someone into space and failing as quite comparable to tossing someone into space. Superman had to maintain contact while in a vulnerable position to do try that method. Basically bear-hugging and holding on for dear life. Gladiator tried the same thing against Hulk and was swatted down in like fashion. But by contrast, Hercules has grabbed and tossed Hulk before with relative ease. Plus, an upward toss should be easier to surprise someone with versus a somewhat telegraphed bear-hug-into-rocket move.
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I'd have to see the Handbooks. For example, though I only saw scans, Hercules was surprised by seeing things move slower when he had Spider-Man's speed, who is maybe a couple hundred MPH. Marvel by and large sucks when it comes to non flight speed with some exceptions, who would still be mediocre in DC.
I'm rather unimpressed by all of that. It's all slower than the 3 with super And speed in DOS. And the problem with your argument was how Doomsday's speed was written there. Like this example Galan has cited(actually his scan).
Doomsday often showed his speed. It's the combination of who he faced and what was stated.
And.....no, Hercules grabbing and tossing someone isn't faster than even what Superman did. You're talking about a guy who had nanosecond feats even in that era. Here's a comparison. The best relevant combat speed feat I saw from Thor was him reacting in microseconds.Plural. But let's exaggerate it and say he reacted in one microsecond(in fact this was Thor reacting to Mjolnir dispelling that it's automatically going to travel FTL).
Let's lowball Superman to only reacting in a nanosecond. A microsecond is one millionth of a second. A nanosecond? One billionth. So even exaggerating Thor and lowballing Superman, that's 1,000 times faster. If we assume Hercules is similar in speed to Thor, that would mean what feels like a second to Hercules would feel like almost 17 minutes to Superman. And this is me weighting it in favor of Hercules.
__________________ Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
Looking at those feats vs you type them is a massive difference. Those feats (if you actually look at them) are garbage. In no way, will a reasonable person believe that herc has ANY type of superspeed. He did nothing a regular skilled human could do. Missiles are slow as hell when first launch (especially fictional missiles). Thor can throw is hammer at speeds of a human fastball at times (varies). Etc.
Plus there are vastly different levels of superspeed. For example, Seeing bullets nearly frozen is totally different than bullet speed itself.
Abhi, we agree that Doomsday speed is less than Shadow Dragon? Superman couldn't even touch SD and admitted he had to up his speed and STILL couldn't touch him. SD >>>> Doomsday? Let's start there first.
Stupid argument. Superman guages what he thinks his opponents can handle so not to overdue it. He missed shadow dragon, then 'doubled his speed' and missed again. Nothing to suggest he was ever maxing out past his limit, especially considering Shadow Dragon wasn't about to beat him to 'death' and potential destroy the planet.
We can see this with consistency in Superman. In his fight against Black Adam, he was steadily increasing the power of his shots as he was moving civilians out of harms way.
Or at other times, calculating melting points mid fight.
Or a thousand other examples of him increasing as fights go on.
Superman has to balance operating at .000000000001% of his power while on Earth alongside with using enough energy to stop bad guys, so as not to blow the planet to pieces. Which we know he can do while dying, with no stars, and so weak he can't even fly, just by trying to jump.
It's not that Superman wasn't fast enough to handle Shadow Dragon. it's that he underestimated him.
The same is not true for Doomsday.
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Last edited by Juntai on Jun 30th, 2023 at 03:19 PM
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Jun 2nd, 2023 10:54 AM
Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
