SSB Gogeta v.s. MUI Goku and LB Jiren

??

Team gets murdered.

Could Vegeto even keep up with UI as far as speed though?

Gogeta wins.

Gogeta

You should have kept him at Super Saiyan or base.

Jiren wins though.

Originally posted by Damborgson
You should have kept him at Super Saiyan or base.

Jiren wins though.
I don't understand.

One of those is serious, the other one not so much

idk...the way MUI was introduced was just way more epic than Gogeta

Goku says Broly>Beerus

Beerus> Average Gods of Destruction
LB Jiren> Beerus
and MUI Goku>Jiren
if god of destruction power is 1, Beerus is 1.2. Jiren would be 1.4, MUI Goku would be 1.6, Whis would be 2

Broly at his peak would be 1.3

It took him 60 min and couldn't finish golden frieza who at best equal a lower end god of destruction, granted he was not in final form

Gogeta was beaten down Broly comfortably, but was still trading blow, it was not like vegito toying buuhan level easy

let's say he's at least twice as powerful, then he be somewhere between 1.5-1.7

I don't see he can beat MUI Goku, let alone with LB Jiren together

SSB Vegita and Goku couldn't even put a scratch on Jiren
and they were fighting Yellow hair Broly evenly at times. (yes I know green hair Broly is much more powerful but still)

honestly the power level is messy there's no easy way to tell

one correction: Golden Frieza at his best equal SSB, no where near any god of destruction and he was able to take hits from Broly without gettin killed

Originally posted by MrMind
SSB Vegita and Goku couldn't even put a scratch on Jiren
and they were fighting Yellow hair Broly evenly at times. The rest of you post notwithstanding, at no point were SSB Goku/Vegeta fighting evenly with SSJ Broly. They were grossly outmatched.

Originally posted by MrMind
one correction: Golden Frieza at his best equal SSB, no where near any god of destruction and he was able to take hits from Broly without gettin killed The light novel implies that Broly may not have been trying to kill Freeza(which would mean that Broly was restraining himself to an extent.) Regardless, I'd attribute that more to a very high durability showing for Freeza; not necessarily a low showing for Broly.

Freeza's physical durability has always been absurd.

But Jiren made short work of Frieza with just a kick and a punch. Toppo even took Frieza out with a casual blast, and then he took him out again easily afterwards.

Freeza ultimately endured ALL the beatings he sustained during the ToP, as he was still there at the end.

Moreover, it is implied in this film that Freeza has become significantly more powerful, as Vegeta now considers him a legitimate threat.

there is no indication that the fight between gogeta and lssj broly is superior than the MUI vs Jiren fight from 129-130

the dimensions shattering affects was cool and all, but the epicness at the end of episode 129 when goku was godly, the level he reached here, there's no argument gogeta> that

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/H6Uk88CyyGQ/hqdefault.jpg

Gogeta rapes them

My personal opinion is if Goku would put Jiren above Beerus he would have said something like "Broly you are almost as strong as Jiren." but he said Beerus instead.

So you can guess who Goku thinks is stronger out of the 2.

Originally posted by Estacado
My personal opinion is if Goku would put Jiren above Beerus he would have said something like "Broly you are almost as strong as Jiren." but he said Beerus instead.

So you can guess who Goku thinks is stronger out of the 2.

Especially since Broly, Cheelai, and Lemo didn't have a clue who either one of them were, so it's not like Goku used Beerus as a point of comparison because they were more familiar with him or w/e. Beerus was used as the reference because Goku still considers him to be the pinnacle of power, imo. Broly is beyond that.

Or Broly could be closer to power to Beerus than Jiren. During the beginning people were comparing Jiren power to Beerus. By the end of it, Jiren was dipping in power far beyond what we saw or knew during his first comparison.

I mentioned this in another thread, but that works IF you think Broly was intended to be sub-Jiren-level. Personally, I've never seen the threats decrease in power as the plot progresses in DB, and I haven't been given any legitimate reason to start thinking that's the case here(especially with the feats/accolades Broly has racked up.) Imo, the context of Goku's statement implies that he still views Beerus as the top dog, and Broly has now surpassed that.

If Goku had compared Broly to Jiren instead of Beerus, I have no doubt that some of you would be using that as proof of Jiren's superiority over everyone else, so why should this be any different?

Originally posted by Estacado
My personal opinion is if Goku would put Jiren above Beerus he would have said something like "Broly you are almost as strong as Jiren." but he said Beerus instead.

So you can guess who Goku thinks is stronger out of the 2.

It can also mean that Broly is stronger than Beerus but weaker than Jiren, though...

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
It can also mean that Broly is stronger than Beerus but weaker than Jiren, though...

Originally posted by Galan007
I mentioned this in another thread, but that works IF you think Broly was intended to be sub-Jiren-level. Personally, I've never seen the threats decrease in power as the plot progresses in DB, and I haven't been given any legitimate reason to start thinking that's the case here(especially with the feats/accolades Broly has racked up.) Imo, the context of Goku's statement implies that he still views Beerus as the top dog, and Broly has now surpassed that.

If Goku had compared Broly to Jiren instead of Beerus, I have no doubt that some of you would be using that as proof of Jiren's superiority over everyone else, so why should this be any different? This.

feats aside why in the hell would broly be weaker then jiren? i cant even think of an instance where the next arc's major opponent hasnt been stronger then the previous one.

piccolo to raditz
raditz to nappa
nappa to vegeta
vegeta to the ginyu force
the ginyu force to captain ginyu
captain ginyu to frieza
frieza to cyborg frieza
cyborg frieza to the androids
the androids to cell
cell to buu
buu to a restrained beerus
restrained beerus to golden frieza
golden frieza to hit
hit to black and zamasu
merged zamasu to jiren

but now its all of the sudden different with broly? I know some of you like to wank jiren but give me a break.

Restrained Beerus is still Beerus. and he is far stronger then Frieza.
Also we don't know where Merge Zamasu stands since they needed Zeno to beat him.

but we now know that in BOG beerus was restraining himself to WAY below the level of SSB goku and golden frieza. fact.

during the TOP supreme kai implied that jiren was more powerful then merged zamasu pretty early on.

Originally posted by carver9


No Carver

Broly>Jiren

Hit was stronger than Black...so....

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
This.

feats aside why in the hell would broly be weaker then jiren? i cant even think of an instance where the next arc's major opponent hasnt been stronger then the previous one.

piccolo to raditz
raditz to nappa
nappa to vegeta
vegeta to the ginyu force
the ginyu force to captain ginyu
captain ginyu to frieza
frieza to cyborg frieza
cyborg frieza to the androids
the androids to cell
cell to buu
buu to a restrained beerus
restrained beerus to golden frieza
golden frieza to hit
hit to black and zamasu
merged zamasu to jiren

but now its all of the sudden different with broly? I know some of you like to wank jiren but give me a break.



Basically this, the wank level is surreal

Originally posted by Damborgson
Hit was stronger than Black...so.... No he wasn't. His power should allow him to beat Black... maybe, but he shouldn't actually be above Black in power.
Especially in the anime when Goku was equal in power to all out Hit, and that same Goku and Vegeta lost to Black.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
No he wasn't. His power should allow him to beat Black... maybe, but he shouldn't actually be above Black in power.
Especially in the anime when Goku was equal in power to all out Hit, and that same Goku and Vegeta lost to Black.

yet hit performed better against jiren than ssb vegeta and goku

he did argualy better than goku first time using ultra instinct

he was the only one actually fighting/trading blows with jiren

Right.

Freeza was speaking in hyperbole during an internal monologue with himself, while Broly was beating his ass. Makes total sense. ermm

Personally, I'm not a fan of just hand-waving canon material away like that.

Originally posted by Galan007
Right.

Freeza was speaking in hyperbole during an internal monologue with himself, while Broly was beating his ass. Makes total sense. ermm

Personally, I'm not a fan of just hand-waving canon material away like that.

Frieza is a known liar.

While every hype related to Jiren As narrative is facts....

Thanks for capturing the full scope of my argument

There are only 'contradictions' because you're creating them.

Freeza states that Broly has the most powerful ki he has ever felt(and he has felt the ki of LB Jiren, for starters.) Goku states Broly is probably more powerful than Beerus, likely because he still considers Beerus to be the top dog, even after the ToP.

What's the problem?

Goku and Vegeta were joke compared to peak Black, completely at his mercy and would kill them extremely easily.

Nor Goku nor Frieza can sense the full of Beerus. Goku is in ignorance here... Beerus is too much for them. Frieza is an idiot... he handled very small portion of Sidra power and he thought he could handle Hakaishin Toppo. So much about him being reliable.

Whis said how small were they compared to Beerus in RoF arc or was it Champa arc. In such short time they reached Beerus. Yeah right. Goku is a brilliant fighter and he reached UI, far from power level of Beerus.

Nor Jiren, nor MUI Goku nor FPSSJ Broly stands any chance now against 100 hundred millions of years old Beerus.

FPSSJ Broly devours Jiren tough.

Originally posted by MrMind
yet hit performed better against jiren than ssb vegeta and goku

he did argualy better than goku first time using ultra instinct

he was the only one actually fighting/trading blows with jiren Jiren was using miniscule amounts of power at every stage. Also, SSB Vegeta out performed Hit against a seemingly higher power level Jiren as well. Final Form Frieza outperformed Hit against Dyspo. SSB Goku outperformed Hit against Jiren in a later fight. And Goku first fought Jiren like a retard, but lasted a decent amount of time for how he was fighting.

Also, no he didn't. Goku ran out of power, but was fighting on completely even ground with Jiren, and even gained the upper hand. He also casually dismissed Dyspo (who almost beat Hit), and Toppo (who Goku was willing to go KK against after his Hit fight).

Hit didn't accomplish anything except the time cage. He was blocking and using time skip to try and deflect damage but he wasn't able to trade blows with Jiren, or put him on the backfoot.

All this ignores that Blue Goku was equal in power to Assassin mode Hit as well. And even in those episodes, it shows how deadly Hit is when you don't fully understand him (which Jiren had no experience with), and his powers can make him seem more powerful than he is. Same Goku that got killed by him was exactly equal to him in raw might for example, or at least his raw might is equal to the extent of Hit's powers.
I'm only speaking about raw power - Dambo's "Hit was stronger than Black" - it's unlikely Hit is more powerful than Black. Definitely weaker than Merged Zamasu though, who was the real main boss of the arc.


If you use the manga, then I don't think an argument can be made for Hit at all though.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Are you arguing that Frieza has never felt Beerus' ki? Because we have no reason to believe Beerus is excluded from the light novel quote. Freeza has sensed the ki of a massively suppressed Beerus, sure.

What's your point?

Originally posted by Galan007
Freeza has sensed the ki of a massively suppressed Beerus, sure.

Indeed.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Frieza has never sensed Beerus doing anything except blowing away Sidra's energy to my recollection. And considering the retcons to Beerus' power, we know how well he can hide his power level. Simply sensing his resting ki is not the same as his full power.

Okay, but then we have to apply the same standard to Goku

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Okay, but then we have to apply the same standard to Goku Because in both mediums, Goku has watched FP Beerus fight

Not the same as sensing no, but a lot more than Frieza has seen.

Not in the anime

Unless Champa is on par with Beerus, in which case everything falls apart

Goku presumably sensed the full power of Beerus(or at least something very close to it) in the manga.

The Broly arc happened in the manga as well:
https://i.imgur.com/X1UUbJ1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Vfe9TSG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3sliTZP.jpg


Again, what's the problem?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Not in the anime

Unless Champa is on par with Beerus, in which case everything falls apart Then he wasn't fully going all out then. The anime already has Vados saying Beerus is more powerful though, so there's grounds for that.

Either way, it's still more of a basis than Frieza has, who has sensed or watched zero Gods fighting. So what we'd be left with from the anime is Goku watching Beerus fight FP Champa, and then judge Beerus from there. That accounts for the dubious nature of him putting Broly above Beerus as well. It's not made definitive, just that it's likely.

Plus, the whole "Fighting a guy who should be thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku" as well. Me and you have discussed this, with varying opinions. Iirc you think Blue would be a 50x boost on Red. Lets give Red a 2x boost on SS3 just to be extremely low here (we worked it out to 120x Buu arc Vegito iirc).

So, Red would be 800x Base Goku, and Blue would be 40000x base Goku. If we assume Base Gogeta was equal to SSB Goku, that would mean that SSB Gogeta was 40000x stronger than SSB Goku post ToP with additional training. Broly was able to take repeated blows from a being of this nature without going down. So... I think it's fair to say he's likely more powerful than Beerus.



Also Dragonball is inconsistent as ****. The exact multiplier in forms has long been forgotten, and the movie was wildly inconsistent as well... same with anime ToP. But I digress.

Every comparison you can possibly make is dubious. That said, I find using the hakaishin as a barometer favours Jiren a lot more than it does Broly.

Also, I think Ultra Instinct is likely to be a greater multiplier than fusion all things made equal, simply due to the fact it's much more highly revered, offers more than a simple power up and requires a lot more out of the user to achieve.

This was sort of alluded to in the Dragon Ball Heroes episodes where MUI does a lot better than Vegito against Cumber (IIRC). Not that its remotely canon, but it represents how I view the two forms.

Also, Goku having that little flick of Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie but never being able to achieve since the tournament, again, tells me that Ultra Instinct is set at a loftier height than fusing with someone of similar strength.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
This was sort of alluded to in the Dragon Ball Heroes episodes where MUI does a lot better than Vegito against Cumber (IIRC). Not that its remotely canon, but it represents how I view the two forms.

Cumber that MUI Goku fought was not only base Cumber but drained base Cumber. It was the weakest Cumber we have seen.

And there is absolutely no chance that MUI Goku would be even close to current SSB Vegito, let alone SSB20xKK Vegito, so DBHeroes is not even remotely of any indication to canon. Pure fan service.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Also, I think Ultra Instinct is likely to be a greater multiplier than fusion all things made equal, simply due to the fact it's much more highly revered, offers more than a simple power up and requires a lot more out of the user to achieve. UI is more revered than fusion because it is ridiculously difficult to attain -- even for the Gods. That said, LB Jiren showed us that raw power alone can close the UI gap, and SSB Gogeta is, as a conservative estimate, tenS of thousandS of timeS more powerful than SSB Goku.

UI is a haxx amp...but it's definitely not THAT haxx, imo.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
No he wasn't. His power should allow him to beat Black... maybe, but he shouldn't actually be above Black in power.
Especially in the anime when Goku was equal in power to all out Hit, and that same Goku and Vegeta lost to Black.

Yes. He was.

Let's be honest, Hit would punch out his heart and be done with it.

And KI levels might be debatable but when one is clearly the greater threat than the other...I mean, what's left to say other than Hit > Black?

why couldnt Black just straightup beat hit's time abilities like SSB Goku did?

Originally posted by Damborgson
Yes. He was.

Let's be honest, Hit would punch out his heart and be done with it.

And KI levels might be debatable but when one is clearly the greater threat than the other...I mean, what's left to say other than Hit > Black? Suck my foreskinless dick bro