The "SW Trilogy SE" is the Definitive Version

Hear ye, hear ye...

I was just thinkin'...The 1997 Special Edition must be the definitive version.

Lucas says he wanted to add more stuff to the originals but didn't have the technology in the 80s (ie. the Jabba scene).

He added better sound and tweaked effects to the THX version in the early 90s...but still didn't have the technology to add the stuff that he wanted.

So 1997, he finally makes the definitve version...the one he always wanted to make.

BUT WAIT! He changed his mind about what he always wanted to make...because now he thinks it should include things like Jango's voice and a shot of Naboo...Naboo!!! Gungans in my precious OT???!!! Gungans and Ewoks seconds away from each other...Lucas you knob!!! Who cares about continuity...will the viewer be totally lost if Boba's voice is different, or if the emperor looks/sounds different?

The '04 version should just be looked at as a "remix" of the Star Wars Special Edition trilogy, and nothing more. It is NOT the "definitive" version...because he already made the "definitve" version...All it is is just Lucas being an anally retentive weirdo.

...still prefer the original releases though, myslelf.

And when Ep. I comes out w/ the digital Yoda, I won't buy that it's the definitve verision...they had more than enough technology to do a digital Yoda when Ep. I came out (they even had one in there at the end)...they just didn't do it (for various reasons)...again that's just Lucas remixing and being an anal nut case.

Err, GL never used the word 'definitive'. In fact, he believes no such thing exists; he plainly says otherwise in the intro to the SE.

I have no problem with him tinkering with them... they're his films he can do what he likes.

And TPM puppet Yoda makes me want to do evil things.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Err, GL never used the word 'definitive'. In fact, he believes no such thing exists; he plainly says otherwise in the intro to the SE.

Where are you getting this stuff from? Are you watching something I'm not?

George Lucas says: "I wanted to fix the film and have it be completed"

How much more clear could he possibly be?

The intro says: "...the way he always meant it to be seen"

And it's not just a press thing...This is just Lucas announcing what it's all about. It's not too hard to believe that it just is what it is...at the time, that was the final, complete, "definitve" version of Star Wars.

Going back and making more changes isn't about making a more definitve version...it's about being an obsesive freak.

The SE is the definitive version...there's nothing you could say that could argue that...no matter how much you want the DVD versions or the original theatrical versions to be the definitve verions...they're just not.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
I have no problem with him tinkering with them... they're his films he can do what he likes.

Agreed...kinda. They are his films...but I have a strange notion about art that there should be some consideration for the audience. Not something he has to do...but something I think he ought to do as an artist...Leave it alone!

No one cares, and honestly I prefer the changes. I find them to be for the better. I rpefer continuity and realism mire anyhoo. f*ck originality.

Where do I get it from? Hmm, lemme see, the bit where he says, in regards as to making the Special Edition:

Films are never completed, they are only abandoned

GL clearly says he never thinks the work is finished. He only gets it as good as he can at the time. That is his belief, that a film can always be tinkered with.

He says it very, very plainly indeed, making it a primary point. Listen more carefully in future.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Where do I get it from? Hmm, lemme see, the bit where he says, in regards as to making the Special Edition:

Films are never completed, they are only abandoned

GL clearly says he never thinks the work is finished. He only gets it as good as he can at the time. That is his belief, that a film can always be tinkered with.

He says it very, very plainly indeed, making it a primary point. Listen more carefully in future.

Fact is he said in 1983, "now it is completed and I have put it on a shelf."

If you want to be correct, always believe the LAST thing Lucas says.

I think that is only contradictory if you are being picky.

I read that he is a strong beiever in things evolving, including his movies. One of the most important things to him is that these movies must be "timeless", so if he needs to make continuous changes, it's completely his business.... if people but them anyway then who's to tell him to stop. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and thank goodness for free will allowing us to buy the movies 1000 times if we so desire. He's not putting a gun to our heads.... just giving us more options.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Where do I get it from? Hmm, lemme see, the bit where he says, in regards as to making the Special Edition:

Films are never completed, they are only abandoned

GL clearly says he never thinks the work is finished. He only gets it as good as he can at the time. That is his belief, that a film can always be tinkered with.

He says it very, very plainly indeed, making it a primary point. Listen more carefully in future.

Relax dude. I just don't think we're watching the same thing...I have an extra making of tape from an SE Trilogy set...and my quote about him wanting to "complete" the film goes directly against your quote about him saying films are never "complete"...which I don't see on what I'm watching...so I could say the same thing to you about listening to what he's saying...It seems like our pal George is a bit confused...

...and that's my point...regardless of what he says (keeping in mind he's an anal nut), the SE version is the definitive version...for the reasons he set out to make it. It's adverstised like that...his intentions seemed to be aimed towards that...so him saying otherwise is just George being wishy-washy.

Most artists, including myslef, would agree that a work is never finished...that doesn't mean that at one point you won't say "My work is complete"...meaning, "I have made changes to it that I've always wanted to make in completing my original vision, and have now offered up what I wanted to have in the first place."

The definitive Star Wars will always be the last revised version that comes out. Otherwise, GL would never have made the changes in the 1st place. Right now, that would be the '04 DVD releases, but that might change seeing as how they are going 3D and you know GL won't rerelease them without at least some changes.

There will never be a definitive version. Lucas will never stop tinkering...

It's not about tinkering...this is what I'm saying from my very first post...Tinkering is just "remixing"...

This sums it all up:

With the SE, George Lucas SET OUT to make the definitive version of the trilogy. Now, whether or not any changes have been made after that is irrelevant. What is releveant is what the SE stands for...the making of the definitve version. It's the first time he attempted to do it, and sure enough (since we have the SE films) he finished doing it.

He completed his films that he wanted to originally make. That's what the SE was for and what he himself said he had an agenda for and said he completed.

He said he wanted to "fix" the film...and he did. Anything after that point is, indeed, tinkering...but not to fixing. How can you fix something that's already fixed? You don't. BUT, you can be an obsessive freak and tamper with stuff...that's all he's doing...and will continue to do.

I don't know how much more plainly I can put it. No, I'm not against changes. No, I'm not against the SE. No, I'm not against George being able to do what he wants with his own art...People making those comments are obviously totally missing the point. I'm just putting forth a solid argument for the SE being the definitve version of the Star Wars films...yes, even if he'd admit it or not...that's EXACTLY what I'm saying! Even if George said the DVD versions are the definitve versions I'd say..."They're absolutley not...you already set out to make what you were gonna consider to be the definitive versions...now you're just having second thoughts." That's my point.


BTW DeVi| D0do...Is that a homemade sig I'm guessing?...really cool. Never stopped to look at it...real dark and trippy.

Speaking of obsessive freaks...

Heh, just something I did in Photoshop a while ago using a google search image...

I see what you're saying... though I'd still argue that the 'remixing' he does is still fixing the films. When he switches the colour of Luke's saber on the Falcon (which he bloody well better do) it will be fixed.

And surely any version he releases is more 'definitive' than the last. People change their minds... 'Definitive' as in "being a final or conclusive settlement" will always mean the latest release. And because we know that he will never stop releasing different versions, the term should really never be used. The fact that he did in reference to the SE, in my opinion, simply meant it was the definitive version at that point in time.

At any rate, I don't really see why it matters, lol.

The 97 promise of it being his definitive vision was just a marketing ploy. Its a natural claim to make to sell the sucker. There was a backlash, and so he mentions nothing of continued changes in the 04 dvds. I myself ASKED THE GUY in person at a SC q and a (prior to the 04 release) whether he'd continue updating them. I knew he would lie, and indeed he did and feigned ignorance, claiming he already did it for the 97's. Why? Cause he knows if he answers that question honestly then fanboys in the audotorium would jump online and spill the beans and he'd get harrased for it. Sure enough seven months later: changes.

There will be more changes. I do believe eventually he will stop. I do believe that that will come with the 2007 re-release. But regardless of what marketting promised in 97, or what Lucas claimed in his promotional interviews to sell the trilogy in 97 (and more so BECAUSE of them), they mean nothing. Aside from the 97 videos, the 97 special edition is as dead and buried as the OOT was (until now). The 97 versions will be the most dead and forgotten of them all. Someday the 2004 versionswill be too, tomake probable way for the 2007 versions.

Films are never finished, only abandoned. Lucas is one of the few filmmakers with the power and luxury to make that sentiment true of his own work. It doesnt mean he will tinker forever. It means that someday he will stop. He will "abandon" it. When? Who knows? I say 2007. Just a hunch. Listen to his commentaries, listen to his interviews, put the pieces together. And try not to be an idiot about some old interviews from 97. He's a PR guy. He says what he can get away with at the time. Use your brain. Please.

And I too prefer the changes. I hope he makes more. To all six movies. They arent perfect. None of the six movies are perfect. They never will be. But I love them with all my heart. And no, he didnt rape your childhood (hate when fanny's say that). What kind of deprived childhood did youhave if thats the case?

Cant wait to see the 2007 changes. There. And by the way serving continuity is one of the basic rules of film. The changes provide continuity. Nothing more, nothing less. I like some continuity in my movies. I like my movies to be good. Anyone else like their movies to be good?

Originally posted by EjkoUSC


Ouch.

OK...this rules...here we go...

First of all, you have no idea how many Lucas commentaries and interviews I've read and heard...My point is that I don't trust what he himslef says...I'm giving an argument apart from what he says...I don't think he himself is capable of saying what the definitve version is because of his utter madness.

According to your (and others') logic, they're wouldn't be anything wrong with George going back in 2007 and making Mos Eisly look LESS busy than the 97 version (for whatever reason). You would argue that a release with changes to "previous changes" would now be the definitive version. I could say that's absolutely not the case.

As far as continuity goes, George attempted to make continuity in 97 because he had the foresight to include Coruscant in the SE films (knowing he would have it in the PT). Now, he's changing his mind on his continuity efforst as well! If he really wanted to have Naboo in his original vision he could have added Naboo. We hadn't seen Coruscant before...nor had we seen Naboo...so it's not a matter of not being ready or something like that. It's a conscious decision he made. Now going back on the decision (like he did in 04) does NOT make it definitve..it makes it tinkering. THAT's my point.

There was always supposed to be a central system for the Empire (Coruscant)... we all knew that. That's why it was put into the SE. To show the crumbling of the Empire at its core. Naboo didn't even exist then. We knew nothing about it, Lucas probably knew nothing about it. To have it show up in the SE would have just been too WTF?!?... So, yes, it is a matter of not being ready.

Anyway, I still disagree with your definition of 'definitive'. By definition it means the absolute FINAL version.

...humph!

I'm guessing it's about time this thread died...tnx for the contributions.

When one is making a movie is movie not shot out of order? Are adjustments not made? Are reshoots necesarry? Can a movie sometime take years to make? Yes Yes Yes.

GL sees the saga as one long movie. He shot it out of order. He rewrites, he re-edits, he changes, adjusts continuity, musical cues, adds, subtracts. The fact that he does it over the course of 30 years does not change the fact that he's making a movie. Hes an experimental filmmaker who is working on a lifes work. The only strange luxury he has is the ability to constantly re-exhibit portions of this "One big movie" to show us his latest draft. Lucas has always maintained that the release of a film is nothing more than a business decision. It is not an artistic one. He has joked that maybe the next films he makes will not be released, they'll just be for his own private amusement. Of course he'll release them, but philosophically he sees the difference. The line you stand in and the ticket you buy to see his latest release is 100 percent independent of his agenda as an artist. He understands and appreciates that he is virtually the only filmmaker in the industry who has the luxury of owning his own film, keep working on it regardless of its "release" and to have a built in audience that will financially support him.

If you look at the Star Wars Saga as a giant film production as he does, then he is doing nothing that a regular filmmaker with a smaller film wouldnt do. Forget the "release" of the movie. And the fact that the 1997 versions of the OT will in the end be the MOST FORGOTTEN and HARD TO FIND DEAD AND BURIED drafts of the movies when all is said and done, especially proves that there is nothing definitive about them. The OOT (77,80,83) seemto have finallyresurfacedfor posterity and will be somehow preserved over the 97's. 97 is dead and buried.

Really the crux of your argument is that you're trying to diagnose Lucas as a nutcase. Are you a doctor? That's pretty lazy arguing there. He's just a guy making a film, and he works slow, and wants to get it right. Understand?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And when Ep. I comes out w/ the digital Yoda, I won't buy that it's the definitve verision...they had more than enough technology to do a digital Yoda when Ep. I came out (they even had one in there at the end)...they just didn't do it (for various reasons)...again that's just Lucas remixing and being an anal nut case.

Either you get what I'm saying here or not. TPM that's already out is the definitive version...meaning it is the definitve peace of art for the reasons above.

I argue these points for art's sake...you argue them for the artist's sake...that's dangerous thinking. You can't trust artists to uphold artistic ideals.

The ideal version of TPM is the one that's out now. There was nothing stopping them from making exactly the film they wanted to make. Even if a digital Yoda wouldn't look perfect (Jar-Jar and Sebulba were pretty darn impressive), they could have had it in there.

...Similarly, there's was nothing stopping them from adding more to the SE (which was a needed fix for the tehnological inadequacies of the OOT)...Me saying they could've added Naboo is just an extreme example...A perfect example is something like changing the English lettering on the tractor beam to the space font...that's just stupid.

As far as continuity is concerned though, they could have added stuff that would probably show up in Episode I (which was only a couple years down the road) if they really wanted to. They made the decision not to (probably for some decent reasons), but it's a decision nonetheless...Going back and changing that is basically saying (we made the wrong decision)...Wrong or not...the decision was made...and for art's sake, it must stand.

My arguments rule! All you guys are arguing is basically "Leave George alone...whatever he says, flies"

That's BS

To quote Padme "you assume too much".

you really do.

You cant trust artists to uphold art? You do now officially qualify as one of the dumbest morons (you manage both) ever to (dis)grace a board.

Your arguments dont rule. You dont read. Dont understand. Dont listen. And draw the wrong conclusions. Assuming you can even draw.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
My arguments rule! All you guys are arguing is basically "Leave George alone...whatever he says, flies"
No, we're just saying your logic is flawed...

Originally posted by EjkoUSC
You do now officially qualify as one of the dumbest morons (you manage both) ever to (dis)grace a board.

Your arguments dont rule. You dont read. Dont understand. Dont listen. And draw the wrong conclusions. Assuming you can even draw.

You're awful nice.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
You can't trust artists to uphold artistic ideals.

I knew that one would puzzle you...Lemme guess...you think art is subjective too, right?

...and be nice...

Of course it is. You're confusing because you make no sense. An incoherent babbler.

But its cool you're probably only 14. If you're any older you better start claiming you're younger because there's no way any adult should get away with this idiocy.

Bingo! Now I know why you think the way you do...

My dear friend, art is NOT subjective...And in case you haven't figured it out...the OT is good art...the PT is bad art.

Take music for example...good music has certain qualities that make it good (be it depth, originality, imagination, substance, a sense of soul, etc...). Now, you take something like Britney Spears that doesn't have those qualities, and you have a perfect example of music that is NOT good.

If art were subjective, then Britney Spears could be considered good music. Of course there are people that like Brittaney Spears, but that doesn't mean it's good...it's just that a lot of people tend to like crap.

The key point is, most people will say art is subjective because then there's no chance they could be accused of liking crap...or not being able to see what isn't crap.

Also, some people are just not capable of being a judge of what is good art and bad art. We don't all have the same capacity to do so.

I see why you don't understand my arguments...because you don't live in a universe of ideals...you should, 'cause that's reality.

I'm with EjkoUSC... I think your ideas are ridiculous. Good and bad are subjective terms, they can't be universally defined. Terrorists don't think they are doing something bad when they blow up a bus... to us, of course it is bad, but to them... well, who the hell knows what they're thinking, but I'm sure they think they're serving some greater good.

And art, especially, is subjective. I really just can't understand how you could be so narrow minded to believe otherwise. It's the reason people have different opinions of films... I believe Napolean Dynamite is a good film. Many people believe it is not. To me it is good, to others it is bad.

And as for not wanting to like crap... There are tonnes of things I like that I believe to be crap. Like Prison Break. A truly terrible show, but I've never missed an episode.

...Who cares what terrorists think when they're blowing up a bus...You're totally missing the big picture. It's bad regardless of what they (or even we) think.

As I metioned in my post, not all people are capable or have the capacity to decide what is good or bad (regarding art as well as morals). Failing to understand this is what's keeping you (and probably the other dude) from gaining a greater understanding of ideals and universal principles (that sure enough do exist in art...which is where this all started).

And although I'm not necessarily talking about you here, what's harder for someone to do than just admitting they like crap is perhaps to admit that they might not in fact be capable or have the capacity to define what is good and bad...because they wouldn't want to think of themselves as stupid now would they?

But that's reality...some people are just in a better intellectual position to be a judge of certain things than others (and vice versa), and a lot of people wouldn't agree with this because it's a tough pill to swallow.

Anyway, I'm still right about the SE, the OT & PT, art and terrorists...There's nothing at all compicated about your guys' arguments. I understand all of them and have heard them all before...they're pretty basic. But I'd suggest looking at my posts again and pondering exactly what is on the page...it is clear you guys haven't seen it from the right light or understood even half of it.

P.S. Just to put your mind at ease, Napolean Dynamite is not a bad film by any means...people who don't like it just don't get it (and maybe even people who do like it might not get it)...but there is a lot there to be "gotten" so to speak, on so many levels.

Of course art is subjective. I used to like Michael Jackson's music, in fact some the 80s stuff of is wonderful. But the man, he's a goner. So we separate the artist from the art.

?

Sorry, EPIIIBITES, but I find your ideas to be nothing more than delusional ramblings... I understand where you're coming from, I really do, but I disagree wholeheartedly. Whatever... to each his own.

Well I too agree with DeviDodo. Though I think Napoleon Dynamite is crap (crap).

My god, there is nothing MORE SUBJECTIVE than "universal ideals". Have you spoken to the universe? How the heck is art not subjective? Anything created by one person is subjective. Just like your BS postings. Subjective. And the more and more you try to explain yourself the less and less intelligent you sound. Step back son. I gurantatee you with every fiber of anything that's ever been that I'm more intelligent than you. Doesnt make me objective. Let intelligent people claim to be objective. Even then they'll be wrong. But for an out-right moron to claim to be anything other than the meandering self-congratulating slob that he is is ridiculous.

And the fact that I got others agreeing with me at least goes to prove that I'm better at articulating my points than you. You convince no one because you have nothing to bring.

Man...I've warned you a couple times to be repectful.

You've crossed the line more than a few times now...simply because you don't agree with an opinion or think it's a stupid one!! Wow...

If you look at "ALL" the other people that agree with you...2...you'll see that they're not being aggressive in their arguments...but how you're acting...oh boy. And I think I'll take my philosophy prof's opinions of me and my capacity for understanding objectivity (and for higher thinking in general) over what a couple guys on "Killer Movies, STAR WARS" think...no offence...but it's not quite the same.

The simple fact that you think you can say you're "more intelligent" than someone else really shows me where you're coming from.

...And sorry to dissapoint you but I am quite confident in my intillectual abilities and have a lot of accolades and accomplishments behind me to support them...


Dude, you're hurtin'

SE...Definitve!

Originally posted by EjkoUSC
Step back son. I gurantatee you with every fiber of anything that's ever been that I'm more intelligent than you. Doesnt make me objective. Let intelligent people claim to be objective. Even then they'll be wrong. But for an out-right moron to claim to be anything other than the meandering self-congratulating slob that he is is ridiculous.


High on yourself much? Anybody who has to declare how intelligent they are must be trying to compensate for something. You need to relax.

And I do agree, that there really is no definitive SW trilogy, just the most updated version for it's time (the '04 DVDs seem to fill this slot for the time being), but if EPIIIBITES believes the '97 trilogy is the definitve version, then I guess for him it is. All the flaming in the world isn't gonna get him to change his mind.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
The simple fact that you think you can say you're "more intelligent" than someone else really shows me where you're coming from.
See, to me, that's exactly what YOU are doing...

Whatever... like you said, this has turned into a discussion that belongs in the Philosophy forum, not the Star Wars forum.

I can guarantee that you are more intelligent than a 2 year old DeVi| D0do ...But it'd be ridiculous to think that I could state you are more or less intelligent than any other adult/young adult on these forums...At some point it gets a little too complex with human beings...ESPECIALLY since I don't even know them...Maybe God could figure that one out...

....but NO I don't think it takes God to figure out objectivity in other things (like making an objective decision if Britney's crap, or if terrorism is wrong, or if the Director's Cut of Blade Runner is the definitve version of the film, or if a certain release of the LOTR novels is the definitve release...or if the SE and curent release of TPM are the definitve versions).

...I still haven't heard anything that counters the logic in my arguments...all I'm hearing is "it's all subjective...just 'cause it is".

I made a quiz!!!

Here we go...

1. Definitve Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band...mono or stereo?

2. Definitve Apocalypse Now...1979 or 2001?

3. Definitve Yoda...Franks Oz or ILM?

...and yes I would argue that there's an objective and correct answer for all of these...and just like I offered up reasoning and put forth solid arguments for the SE and TPM as being definitive, I can do the same with these...

I truly don't think they are matters of opinion. I think you can break it down to reveal the objective truth of what's definitve and why...like I've already done with the SW films.

You still havent proven anything. Not a thing. How did you prove anything? Where?

All you've done is pat yourself on the back for your juvenile analysis, and say "my arguments rule!" The problem is they dont. They really dont. They dont even hold up. The safest argument in this case is that either NONE OF THE VERSIONS are definitive. Or that the 2004 are. What gives you objectivity? You are a conceited person with a passionate opinion on the subject. You call Lucas a moron. With the recklessly amateurish word choice you use, how in a million years could you ever fancy yourself objective?

I'm glad some dumb professor supposedly applauded you for your objectivity (and compliment that I'm willing to bet you metabolized wrong). But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

And, while we're at it, I'm not being rude, I'm just being "objective."

By the way, dont know if you realized but you too are "just another guy on killer movies Star Wars". That's all you are to me.

By the way I can only dream of frequenting this board as often as you do. Don't have the time. On the other hand I dont have an automatically condescending opinion of star wars fans who have the temerity to visit a friggin message board. That's your deal. If being a forum regular is supposed to be some signal of intellectual merit (which its not) then where does that leave you? Just another Star Wars forum visiter. That's all you are to me. That's all I am to you.

The End.

P.S. love the 2004 Star Wars.

Are you for real???

I just put up a quiz to change things up, and it seems you have nothing left to offer this discussion except for saying how much of an idiot you think I am. Dude it seems you're just looking for a fight. Leave me alone.

And are you trying to make ME look bad now or something?

I was NOT being condescending...read the post again. I said "no offence" and that it's "not quite the same" getting a personal opinion from a university philosophy professor as it is from some people on a sci-fi message board that don't even know me...If you truly are mature you would have no problem with that statement.

You dont need any help from me in coming off stupid. But what the heck, I'm a naturally helpful person.

And what's the point taking your quiz? You're looking for a quiz to correct with your "objective" answers. I think the problem here (at the base level) is that its becomingly more and more clear that you're wonderfully mis-using the word "objective" to support your arguments (and toot your own horn)

Here is my quiz for you first, only one question.

1) What does objective mean?

Answer it. Absorb the meaning and then for godssakes stop using it. Its embarassing and it really devalues everything you say. Anyone whose ever been through anything unique and personal (and everyone has) is entirely incapable of shedding an objective light on anything. We always bring our history and pre-conceptions with us in the judgment of literally everything we do and perceive. To imply that despite it all you got the objective skinny on any given subject, really does imply a God complex on your part. And an inadvertent (because you're too naive to mean it) disrespect to everyone on the board. So no, objectivity is not obtainable by man. And proving otherwise would be harder than pulling ears out of a gundark.

But you're too silly to be taken totally seriously. Anyone who thinks he claims victory just because he "claims" it first is a silly person. You're like those cats on aint it cool who always compete to be FIRST! on the message boards after a news posting (are you one of them?).

And just for Star Wars kicks here's a second question (what the heck)

2) What's your favorite episode? (There's no right or wrong answer. I'm not grading you)

Dude, seriously...not into chattin' with you.

Let's see...

Your FIRST post since AUG 4TH!...

"And try not to be an idiot about some old interviews from 97."
"Use your brain. Please."
"What kind of deprived childhood did you have if thats the case?"

You came back after a month just to look for someone to disagree with and pick a fight with right away? (and that's your tamest post!)

And you haven't even been to any other threads!!! You're just here to unload on someone you disagree with.

Seriously man...not cool.

I'm no no particular mood to disagree. I joined this topic because it sounded like an interesting topic. It was unfortunately started by someone who needed to be taken back down to planet Earth. Too bad I failed. Immaturity and Ignorance are tough acts to follow, you know? It is truly difficult to get through to the intellectually dyslexic.

I am sorry however that your ego cant take anything other than what your philosophy professor told you. I really am sorry for that, didnt know. He sounds like a brilliant and trustworthy judge of character.

But you're right I should have maybe just bit my tongue and let you feel like the self-congratulatory superguy that you are. What's the difference to me?

So what's your favorite episode chum? Lets talk Star Wars.

It was the final version i read somewhere . The OOT was a draft and the SE final according to GL .

YEAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah back in 97. How many e-dollars you wanna bet Lucas would say the latest version is the definitive? Was the fact that the 1997 versions werent put out on DVD (and never will be released again) a clear enough sign to you?

?

Originally posted by coolmovies
It was the final version i read somewhere . The OOT was a draft and the SE final according to GL .

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
YEAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YEAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well there we have it folks. Empirical data.

YYYYEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!

YEAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THe definitive version of any SW film are the last versions around when Lucas dies.

I'd say "duh" queeq, but the obvious is not so obvious to some of the (idiots...yep) that frequent this board. So, cheers to ya pal.

Yeah.

Gosh...You're such a wonderful human being...

...are you currently seeing anyone?

The remaking will never end as long as Lucas is around... I fear.

Well...I think it's the version he says is definitve the frist time he states it...the fact that he's decided to change his mind about what should constitute a definitve verion of the films is irrelevant.

He very capably made a decision in '97...therefore every release after that is just a re-edit of what has now been named the "final" and "complete" version (SE) of the Star Wars trilogy.

The SE is the first version of the trilogy that can claim to be "complete" and "finished"...nothing can take that away from it...not even its fickle creator.

My point is, to go back on something you say is definitve, is contradictory...otherwise why say something is the complete version of the films when you don't mean it?

I'm sure to Lucas, the latest versions of his films are what he prefers, but the decision he so capably made and the label he gave to his SE trilogy in 97 will forever stand.

I can compare it to giving in a resume for a one time only posistion...

You take your time, work on an a resume, and make the decision to hand it in. This is your opportunity to show them what you offer.

The company looks at you resume, but the decision to hire you doesn't fall in your favour.

You tell them:

"Actually, that's not my final version of my resume...THIS is."

Their reaction's gonna be:

"What?? This is what you handed in. You very capably made your resume for this job, and made the decision to hand it in...of course it's your final version...why should we believe what you're adding, now that you know our decision???

Our reaction to it, or anything else shouldn't change what your resume is.

If you had something to add (or take out) that was so important, you would have done it.

THIS is what you put forward as a representation of yourself and your skills...changing your mind now is just silly...I'm sure according to you, the new version of your resume is better, but you already gave us your complete resume...and that's what I'll consider to be the complete representation of youreslf and your skills"

......as is the SE a "final" and "complete" (in Lucas' words) representation of what he wanted his Star Wars Trilogy to be.

Well then I guess that makes Lucas a silly person. I guess that makes him contradictory. So what then? People "say things" all the time. Then they contradict themselves all the time. So why take Lucas's 97 claim as gospel and then not take all he has said since then as seriously? Simply cause he said it after?

He once said Owen was Obi-Wans brother. Later he says he's not. And the fact that Lucas cant change his mind only cause he's "the feeble creator"? The feeble creator? The feeble creator? Just think about that. What's so feeble about being the creator of the very subject we now spend so long discussing. I'd say hes an authority.

Lucas is never going to make a definitive version. The last version he makes before his death will be the definitive, only because he won't be able to tinker any more...

Originally posted by EjkoUSC
And the fact that Lucas cant change his mind only cause he's "the feeble creator"? The feeble creator? The feeble creator? Just think about that. What's so feeble about being the creator of the very subject we now spend so long discussing. I'd say hes an authority.

Does anyone else here see the word "feeble" in my posts?... 'cause I don't.

Originally posted by Bespin Bart
Lucas is never going to make a definitive version. The last version he makes before his death will be the definitive, only because he won't be able to tinker any more...

It's interesting how many people come on the thread, look at the title and state the obvious or the first thing that comes to their mind, and probably don't even read/understand the first or latest posts to get a good grasp of the argument.

Just like in my example of being the job applicant and having the "opportunity to show them what you offer", there was the opportunity for Lucas in '97 with his release of the SE to offer his finished and comlpete Star Wars trilogy...

...and that's what he did.

Yeah, but whenever a new version comes up, there is still another definitive version. Jabba is quite different in the SE from the 2004 DVD, so is the Han-Greedo scene. the original is so much better, I saw it again on the recently released DVD's. These changes may be small, yet they do change scenes sometimes. So what is definitive? It is the last one Lucas leaves behind when he dies?

Originally posted by queeq
So what is definitive? It is the last one Lucas leaves behind when he dies?

Just because Lucas has made changes since 1997, it doesn't change what "Star Wars: The Special Edition" essentially is, and what it was meant to be...a creation of the "final" and "definitve" version of the films.

How can it possibly be explained better?

If Star Wars: The Special Edition was never undertaken, then you could argue that the latest version would obviously be the definitve version...but now they're just NEWER versions...that's all.

And I've shown in the past 3 posts how "the last one before he dies" stuff doesn't have any bearing on anything.

...Hey, let's just hope he doesn't die after he releases a version that pisses everyone off for whatever reason...Then people will be making their own decision as to what's definitve...how does that work?

It's pretty clear that a lot of people are arguing this just because they don't like the SE (letting their feelings get in the way?). I agree with Queeq that the originals are the best, but at least I can be objective about what is what.

YES!

"He takes films that mean a lot to fans and people from the era, and turns them into experiments for revolutionary recognition"
- Cartoon Christopher Lee, Lord of the Rings by George Lucas.

Once you make the decision that something is definitve, it's contradictory and makes no sense to later say that it's not. Then you're going against your own atistic judgment and decision.

Just because Lucas has become obsessive or has developed tendencies to seek more money, recognition, or whatever, doesn't make any difference to what the SE is.

The latest version is NOT the definitve version, all it is, is what he likes the best. What's definitve is what he offered up as "final" and "complete" when he did.

What is your point then? It started evolving since the day Lucas made ANH. First without the EpI: A New Hope line in the opening crawl and different soundtrack variations. He always siad he felt limited by the technology at the time, then when Jurassic Park came out he saw a chance to bring it closer to his original vision and he made the SE, then as stuff developed, technology got better, he altered it again and he will keep doing that no doubt. So what IS definitive?

Lucas always quoted this line which he seems to hold unto in a somewhat forced way: films are not finished, only abandoned. Looks like he doesn't want to abdandon the OT and keeps updating it. Well fine... whatever. Still doesn't change the fact that the original OT changed history, movie history in particular and that the original ANH made it possible for him to create his empire, the PT, the SE and all other alterations.
Nothing is definitive for Lucas, it is always abandoned until it is perfect. And when that happens, THAT is the definitive version. Or when he dies, the last one is because that will be the one closest to his vision.

I could see him saying the "films are not finished, only abandoned" stuff after he made the originals...that makes sense. That's cause (especially in " A New Hope" he'd fall ridculously behind schedule and have a limited budget/technology.

However, when SE came around, all of that was there for him to do what he'd wish...THAT'S why he did what he did.

I'm just relaying what was said in the Making of Star Wars: Special Edition, and showing what (in his words) the very purpose of the SE was.

It seems that he has since changed his mind on what HE considers a "finished" and "complete" Star Wars looks like, but my argument is that this doesn't take anything away from the SE claiming the right as being the finished version of Star Wars...because in his own words, that's what it was meant to be.

At that point in time. It was definitive for that point in time.

All I gotta say is...

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Well...I think it's the version he says is definitve the frist time he states it...the fact that he's decided to change his mind about what should constitute a definitve verion of the films is irrelevant.

He very capably made a decision in '97...therefore every release after that is just a re-edit of what has now been named the "final" and "complete" version (SE) of the Star Wars trilogy.

The SE is the first version of the trilogy that can claim to be "complete" and "finished"...nothing can take that away from it...not even its fickle creator.

My point is, to go back on something you say is definitve, is contradictory...otherwise why say something is the complete version of the films when you don't mean it?

I'm sure to Lucas, the latest versions of his films are what he prefers, but the decision he so capably made and the label he gave to his SE trilogy in 97 will forever stand.

&

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I can compare it to giving in a resume for a one time only posistion...

You take your time, work on an a resume, and make the decision to hand it in. This is your opportunity to show them what you offer.

The company looks at you resume, but the decision to hire you doesn't fall in your favour.

You tell them:

"Actually, that's not my final version of my resume...THIS is."

Their reaction's gonna be:

"What?? This is what you handed in. You very capably made your resume for this job, and made the decision to hand it in...of course it's your final version...why should we believe what you're adding, now that you know our decision???

Our reaction to it, or anything else shouldn't change what your resume is.

If you had something to add (or take out) that was so important, you would have done it.

THIS is what you put forward as a representation of yourself and your skills...changing your mind now is just silly...I'm sure according to you, the new version of your resume is better, but you already gave us your complete resume...and that's what I'll consider to be the complete representation of youreslf and your skills"

......as is the SE a "final" and "complete" (in Lucas' words) representation of what he wanted his Star Wars Trilogy to be.

...it's all there...nothing more to explain.

Intermission...

Now...where were we???

I wouldnt be surprised if lucas edited the OT yet again and said 'oh, this is the definitive version'

i dont see what difference it makes, we all have our preference...

nice pic btw...

Why stressing what the definitive version is? He's been making that for 30 years. Who knows if he ever finishes it, I doubt he is completely satified with ANH... that's the only film that has a few moments of outdatedness, although he did take out all the English words from the equipment.

BTW, that female stormtrooper... why isn't she in the SE if that is so definitive as you say?

Originally posted by queeq
Who knows if he ever finishes it, I doubt he is completely satified with ANH... that's the only film that has a few moments of outdatedness, although he did take out all the English words from the equipment.

All I gotta say is...

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
The ideal version of TPM is the one that's out now. There was nothing stopping them from making exactly the film they wanted to make. Even if a digital Yoda wouldn't look perfect (Jar-Jar and Sebulba were pretty darn impressive), they could have had it in there.

...Similarly, there's was nothing stopping them from adding more to the SE (which was a needed fix for the tehnological inadequacies of the OOT)...Me saying they could've added Naboo is just an extreme example...A perfect example is something like changing the English lettering on the tractor beam to the space font...that's just stupid.

&

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
As far as continuity goes, George attempted to make continuity in 97 because he had the foresight to include Coruscant in the SE films (knowing he would have it in the PT). Now, he's changing his mind on his continuity efforst as well! If he really wanted to have Naboo in his original vision he could have added Naboo. We hadn't seen Coruscant before...nor had we seen Naboo...so it's not a matter of not being ready or something like that. It's a conscious decision he made. Now going back on the decision (like he did in 04) does NOT make it definitve..it makes it tinkering. THAT's my point.

Once again...it's all there...nothing more to explain.

...and for those of you who said they hadn't even conceived of Naboo back then or some lame argument like that, you're totally wrong. The prequels had been in the works well around the time the SE was being made according to Lucas and Muren.

That's fine, and if thats what you believe then ok... just because people dont share your view doesnt make them wrong (unless you're gl in disguise ), i think we all have our own definitive versions...

for me its the original originals...

Yeah...you think I prefer the SE...'cause you haven't read my posts I'm guessin'...

Well...the originals are the best, but they're the least definitve by far.

BTW, I am GL is disguise..."Computers and money rule!!!"

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Yeah...you think I prefer the SE...oh, 'cause you haven't read my posts I'm guessin'...

Well...the originals are the best, but they're the least definitve by far.

i have read your posts, and i didnt mean to say what ones you prefer at all, at least thats not how i meant to come accross...

definitive is something that can only be truly decided by lucas though (imo), and who's to say he won't re-edit the ot again AND the pt and then say that those are his definitive versions...

He will...and nothing is gonna convince me that TPM with a digital Yoda is definitve...who cares what he thinks...he made it with a puppet Yoda when he could've had a digital Yoda...for whatever reasons (good or bad).

We already have the definitve versions of all the films...they're the versions he made when he had the essential technology, time and money to work with...and he had that in '97 with the OT, and in '99, '02, and '05 with the PT...going back and making changes to voices, holograms, words and crap like that doesn't make them any more definitve...it's just anal retentive tinkering to what he had the resources to accomplish initially.

...and as much as I despise the 20th anniversary of ET, I accept it as the definitve version because for the first time, the creator went back and did what he wasn't able to do with is character in the 80s...and that's perfectly acceptable...and this is now the definitve version of ET (ugh!)

Lucas had been able to do everything with every movie...from an artistice perspective, that's where the line is drawn. THAT'S my argument...who cares what Lucas thinks...he's a bit "off."

i see your point, i honestly do, i just don't believe there will be a definitive version to lucas until he's dead...

you have your idea of what is definitive, as do i, thats all im saying, they're all as valid as each others...

Thanks for seeing my point...

...not a whole lot of people do...which is understandable...'cause the Special Edition SUCKS!

all i want lucas to do is use the newer OT, but put the following back in: Han shooting first, No hayden, and... well, thats it...

if i could recut it myself i would...

but yeah, if i had that, all remastered while not being changed, then i'd be happy...

I see your point too, I just don't get why you make such a fuss over it. IMHO and following Lucas's "abandonment"-take on films, defintive is only definitive when he stops fidgeting with it. And if you think it's just tweaking the SE, well, whatever. Why do you hammer so much on this "definitveness". Is this then a debate of semantics?

Well, this is why disagree with your point:

It's quite plausable that Lucas might make a version of OT Star Wars a few years before he dies that has whatever in it...then, as he falls ill and is in the hospital a few years later, he says...I actually want to add this and that in Star Wars, and to take out that and this...but lo and behold, our beloved George passes away without having a chance to give his "definitve" definitve version to the world...and man, if you're thinkin' this is far fetched...

So, then what's the definitve version I ask? Is it the one he thought of before he died...well, we don't have that one...so it's the one that was actually made before he died...well not according to George...he wanted to add this and that to it, and to take out that and this...actually, it seems that maybe it's the one before that one because it was closer to what he really wanted in the end...

...that's my point.

...hey, how's this for a thought...maybe it's the one he set out to complete and finish the first time around...

...hmmmm.

Errr... I dunno what you're getting at. The definitive version NOW is the 2004 dvd... it's maybe not the BEST version, but it is the defintive one, as YET. And so what if it's a tweaked version of the SE? It's still the way George likes is NOW.

...I'm arguing your point that even the last version before he dies won't necessarily be the definitve version, because he could quite possibly change his mind before having a chance to make further changes...meaning he's not gonna like the last version he makes before he dies...

...For all we know, he might well have changed his mind already on the 2004 version and is considering tweaking it for the 30th Anniversary release (and this could very well mean altering stuff he added in the 2004 version...that's my point). So arguably, if he died tomorrow, the 2004 version wouldn't be the definitve version...

What other version would there be? The one that he may have in his mind but doesn't exist...doesn't exist. Oh darn... let's just call it the FINAL version, then we're always safe.

I wonder what he's like when he orders food at a restaurant?


"...and for you monsieur?"

"Yes...I'll get the salmon please."

"That is an excellent choic..."

"Actually wait. Gimme the roast chicken instead."

"Alright. That will be one roas..."

"Umm. Actually, you know what? I do want the salmon after all."

"Ok...the salmon it is...and what would..."

"CHICKEN! Gimme the chicken! I don't like salmon...Never have."

"Are you having trouble decidin..."

"No, not at all. It's chicken. That's my final decision. I always wanted chicken...but I was rushed into a decison and..."

"No problem monsieur. That'll be one roast chicken."

(Waiter exits stage right).

(10 mins later, waiter enters stage left).

"Your roast chicken monsieu..."

"It looks kinda dry...can't we add something to it...like gravy? I love gravy!! Yeah, if you could throw some gravy on it..."

(Waiter exits stage right. 2 minutes later he re-enters).

"There you g..."

"Wo! That's a lot of gravy! I mean I like gravy but...kinda thick too. You guys sometimes have this specialty gravy. Kinda lighter...Yeah, gimme that SPECIAL EDITION gravy..."

(Waiter rolls his eyes, and curtains fall).

A dinner's not ordered, it's only abandoned.

Coming November 1st...

Roast Chicken: The Special Edition Take-Out Box Set

With salmon?

Roast Chicken: The Special Edition Take-Out Box Set Includes:

Special Edition Roast Chicken; Numbered BBQ salmon memorabilia; 3 pages of the original restaurant menu; and making-of recipe booklet.

And the Newly released and remastered version, is that without the artifical food colouring and does that contain the orginal recipe?

Christ... you guys have waaaaay too much time on your hands...

Lucas started it...

YEah, about 30 years ago. He's been at it longer than we have.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Lucas started it...

Originally posted by queeq
YEah, about 30 years ago. He's been at it longer than we have.



yeah, true...

hmm... remastered chicken... drool

With salmon flavour... (and he has put JarJar in it)

hmm i have a VHS box with OT that says 2000 on the bottom.i think it was released as a bonus to attack of the clones. are we talking about the same films as the 1997 version?.

That is the SE yes...

cool

What are ya thinkin' there?

Originally posted by queeq
With salmon flavour... (and he has put JarJar in it)

poor gungan...

No, not poor, he's dead. Should be a national holiday.

So much hostility... fear, i sense in you, fear, of the gungans...

Fear they turn up digitally in a new version of the OT, yes.

? They are in the OT...That's what I was bitchin' about in my very first post. It's horrible!

They are???? Where??? In what version???

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
As far as continuity goes, George attempted to make continuity in 97 because he had the foresight to include Coruscant in the SE films (knowing he would have it in the PT). Now, he's changing his mind on his continuity efforst as well! If he really wanted to have Naboo in his original vision he could have added Naboo. We hadn't seen Coruscant before...nor had we seen Naboo...so it's not a matter of not being ready or something like that. It's a conscious decision he made. Now going back on the decision (like he did in 04) does NOT make it definitve..it makes it tinkering. THAT's my point.
This is a big part of my argument!

In the new 04 DVD versions....at the very end it's showing Endor, Bespin, Tatooine, Coruscant...like it did in the SE...which I actually thought was a neat addition...and now it's got Naboo with Gungans on tops of roofs dancing and blowing horns...Lucas you knob! It's like being at the end of Phantom Menace all over again!!

Oh that... never scrutinised it enough to see if there were Gungans... probably out of fear what I would find. Anyway, they're small enough not to be noticed. My real fear is that we get to see one up close... brrrrrrrrr....

Originally posted by queeq
Fear they turn up digitally in a new version of the OT, yes.



Originally posted by queeq
Oh that... never scrutinised it enough to see if there were Gungans... probably out of fear what I would find. Anyway, they're small enough not to be noticed. My real fear is that we get to see one up close... brrrrrrrrr....

well, you never know...

Yeah I know... *shudder*

I dare him to do it...I double dare him...there would be an uprising...guaranteed.

Ooooh, the power he holds.

Yeah, the power to alienate millions of fans.

Originally posted by queeq
Yeah I know... *shudder*



Originally posted by queeq
Yeah, the power to alienate millions of fans.

yeah... b*stard...

Well... he's the rich one.

I watched a sky tv special about the characters of star wars last thurs and when 3po kicks r2 before they go their seperate ways in episode 4 there was no sound of his foot hitting R2.
Has he taken that out???

Out of the movie? No, not that I know of. I love that clunking sound.

it was weird expecting it and not getting it
wonder why they took that out?

But it was not the movie, was it? It was like a documentary or something..?

yeah a little 20 min documentary
some nice Ralph McQuarrie stuff there
nothing new for long term fans though

They probably deleted the sound during editing of the documentary.

Originally posted by queeq
Well... he's the rich one.

rich doesnt always equal good...

Nope, but he does make him laugh the hardest.