God Swamp Thing vs Molecule Man

Pre retconned MM.

ST

ST.

MM...

God ST was just a notch below The Presence.

Given the chance, he could usurp The Presence himself and become the supreme being in DC.

Owen ftw.

Owen was more powerful than all the Multiverse combined,
plus, survived against the Beyonder for a short while.

If ST could've usurped the Presence,
then the Presence is a flimsy supreme being.

No one could have ever usurped THOTI,
or any of the other supreme beings TOAA has created.

God ST could take over as God, which shows how powerful he is. It's no way a stomp in either favor.

Owen.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
God ST was just a notch below The Presence.

Given the chance, he could usurp The Presence himself and become the supreme being in DC.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
God ST could take over as God, which shows how powerful he is. It's no way a stomp in either favor.

What kind of The Presence is that then? If something like that happened, it would only be because The Presence allowed it. Otherwise, ST should be a joke to the The Presence as an ordinary ant, no difference.

I think too many are focusing on how apparently weak The Presence is, and not on how powerful God Swamp Thing was...

Originally posted by Enyalus
I think too many are focusing on how apparently weak The Presence is, and not on how powerful God Swamp Thing was...

The point is that no matter how powerful he is, that shouldn't mean anything to The Presence.

Like TOAA, there is no difference is it LT or LT+Protege+Wanda+whole Marvel Universe, that doesn't matter to TOAA. There is even no difference is it THOTI or an ant. It doesn't matter to TOAA.

MM would probably own ST.

I think it was because Presence allowed him to take over, like you said. Not that he stole Presence powers or took away.

The Voice, an aspect of The Presence, wanted to stop him. So I don't think that's the case, either.

If the Voice couldn't stop ST, I doubt Owen can. This is more like a stalemate. How can you beat a supreme being?

I don't know who wins. Owen's power was ridiculous. So was ST's.

Originally posted by Xplosive
What kind of The Presence is that then? If something like that happened, it would only be because The Presence allowed it. Otherwise, ST should be a joke to the The Presence as an ordinary ant, no difference.
It's not like it was the only instance that an 'omnipotent' being tried to usurp The Presence.

Carnivore tried. So did GEB.

But none of them could.

As I see it, The Presence gave them a portion of his power just to see how powerful his creations can become.

Wally the God Boy could've killed Carnivore himself. But instead, he let his creations finish the job themselves.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
It's not like it was the only instance that an 'omnipotent' being tried to usurp The Presence.

Carnivore tried. So did GEB.

But none of them could.

As I see it, The Presence gave them a portion of his power just to see how powerful his creations can become.

Wally the God Boy could've killed Carnivore himself. But instead, he let his creations finish the job themselves.

who do you think wins?

Carnivore had a death wish. He didn't want to win.

Hmmm, I think I have a battle for Wally the God-boy.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Carnivore had a death wish. He didn't want to win.
He lacked the 'female' aspect of The Presence.
And we saw The Presence in the form of Wally.

Which only means that Carnivore was only given a very small portion of that supreme power that The Presence wields.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
It's not like it was the only instance that an 'omnipotent' being tried to usurp The Presence.

Carnivore tried. So did GEB.

But none of them could.

As I see it, The Presence gave them a portion of his power just to see how powerful his creations can become.

Wally the God Boy could've killed Carnivore himself. But instead, he let his creations finish the job themselves.

Protege also wanted to usurp TOAA.

Like I thought so. If something like that happens, it's because The Presence likes to play. The Presence gives the power to all, to some more, to some less. He empowers everything, everyone. As He can give, He can take it away. Whenever He wishes, He can make a normal human more powerful than Swamp Thing ever was.

Originally posted by Xplosive
The Presence gives the power to all, to some more, to some less. He empowers everything, everyone. As He can give, He can take it away. Whenever He wishes, He can make a normal human more powerful than Swamp Thing ever was.
I beg to differ.

Then you really don't know anything and you are wrong.

The Presence is the creator. He empowers everything, everyone in DC.
Carnivore nor Swamp Thing didn't came to existence just like that. Them as anyone else depends on God, while God doesn't depend on anyone. That is His unimaginable power.

This isn't really about Presence. But ST with his power.

Originally posted by Xplosive

Like I thought so. If something like that happens, it's because The Presence likes to play. The Presence gives the power to all, to some more, to some less. He empowers everything, everyone. As He can give, He can take it away. Whenever He wishes, He can make a normal human more powerful than Swamp Thing ever was.


He seems to be based on the Biblical Judeo-Christian/Abrahamic God.


God ST >= PR MM, imo.

Then what a stupid "supreme being" DC has. No offence.

Molecule Man.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Then you really don't know anything and you are wrong.
Brilliant rebuttal.

Originally posted by Xplosive
The Presence is the creator. He empowers everything, everyone in DC.
Carnivore nor Swamp Thing didn't came to existence just like that. Them as anyone else depends on God, while God doesn't depend on anyone. That is His unimaginable power.
I don't need a lesson in theology. Nor a lesson in DC cosmogony. The Source empowers nearly everything in the DCU. The Presence, if the Lucifer series taught anything, has very little to do with his Creation. And with the entrance of the Primal Monitor into the DCU cosmological system, The Presence might not even be Supreme at all.

Not to mention other entities that have proven The Presence wasn't all-powerful, etc, etc, such as Synnar and Great Evil Beast.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Brilliant rebuttal.


I don't need a lesson in theology. Nor a lesson in DC cosmogony. The Source empowers nearly everything in the DCU. The Presence, if the Lucifer series taught anything, has very little to do with his Creation. And with the entrance of the Primal Monitor into the DCU cosmological system, The Presence might not even be Supreme at all.

Not to mention other entities that have proven The Presence wasn't all-powerful, etc, etc, such as Synnar and Great Evil Beast.

I thought great evil beast was an aspect of it?

If there is anything outside the jurisdiction of the presence or if there is anything that it cant do, then its not truly omnipotent and it sucks. If that's the case god ST being able to usurp its power is not all that impressive.

MM probably takes this.

Originally posted by 753
I thought great evil beast was an aspect of it?
They agreed to merge and become whole. Prior to that...

Originally posted by 753
I thought great evil beast was an aspect of it?

If there is anything outside the jurisdiction of the presence or if there is anything that it cant do, then its not truly omnipotent and it sucks. If that's the case god ST being able to usurp its power is not all that impressive.

MM probably takes this.

GEB wasn't an aspect of the Presence, it was the embodiment of the complete nothingness that existed before creation, so was the exact opposite to the light of The Presence.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
GEB wasn't an aspect of the Presence, it was the embodiment of the complete nothingness that existed before creation, so was the exact opposite to the light of The Presence.

isnt that nekron's thing? cant keep up with dc cosmology

Originally posted by 753
isnt that nekron's thing? cant keep up with dc cosmology

Nekron is death embodied. Or something.

At this point, I generally consider the cosmology showed in Lucifer/Swamp Thing/Hellblazer/Sandman to be seperate from the main DCU, as it doesn't really fit with the recent cosmology that has appeared in the DCU.

Lucifer's cosmology shouldn't even be considered when thinking of DCU. They are two very different things. Sure there's the similarities of Judeo-Christian theme behind it all but its not the same. Especially considering in Lucifer's world Yahweh permanently left creation and let Ellaine Belloc take over as God.

Swamp Thing is featured in both Vertigo and DC. Spectre has appeared in both Vertigo and DC. Archangel Michael has shown up in both.

It's wishful thinking IMO to think that the two multiverses have separate cosmogonies.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Nekron is death embodied. Or something.

At this point, I generally consider the cosmology showed in Lucifer/Swamp Thing/Hellblazer/Sandman to be seperate from the main DCU, as it doesn't really fit with the recent cosmology that has appeared in the DCU.

why does he keep complaining existence invaded his turf then?

I have to read blackest night through, it's too bizarre no to

Nekron is not GEB.

Nekron was there was the universe was there. When it was black, vacant, dull, and lifeless. A time where there was actually perfect peace(in his opinion). Then God said, let there be light, and the invader came(a white entity) and life started on earth and BAM!

GEB was there before the universe came to be. Before it was anything, before the Source/PM/Presence wanted to create it there was also GEB. He is the evil/dark part of the Presence. Or the other side of the same coin

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Nekron is not GEB.

Nekron was there was the universe was there. When it was black, vacant, dull, and lifeless. A time where there was actually perfect peace(in his opinion). Then God said, let there be light, and the invader came(a white entity) and life started on earth and BAM!

GEB was there before the universe came to be. Before it was anything, before the Source/PM/Presence wanted to create it there was also GEB. He is the evil/dark part of the Presence. Or the other side of the same coin

I wouldn't say the GEB was evil in any way, it was far more like an infant in it's understanding of anything, as all it knew was nothingness, so it couldn't understand 'evil' or anything else it was branded as (shown by the fact it continuouly asks characters about these things)

But yeah, agree with the rest.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Swamp Thing is featured in both Vertigo and DC. Spectre has appeared in both Vertigo and DC. Archangel Michael has shown up in both.

It's wishful thinking IMO to think that the two multiverses have separate cosmogonies.

But it's much, much easier to think about it that way.

I mean, Blackest Night alone causes confusion within the main DCU cosmology alone (Life started on Earth? What about the 1st world etc)

And then if you try to include all the other stuff it gets very complicated. Like how does Lucifers multiverse etc fit in with the 52, and the Monitors etc...

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
I wouldn't say the GEB was evil in any way, it was far more like an infant in it's understanding of anything, as all it knew was nothingness, so it couldn't understand 'evil' or anything else it was branded as (shown by the fact it continuouly asks characters about these things)

But yeah, agree with the rest.
Yeah, that's why I also said the other side of the coin.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
But it's much, much easier to think about it that way.

I mean, Blackest Night alone causes confusion within the main DCU cosmology alone (Life started on Earth? What about the 1st world etc)
If that's the reasoning, Life starting on whatever planet the Oans first came from make no sense, either.

I think its explained by 2nd world and so on being located in a higher dimension.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Nekron is not GEB.

Nekron was there was the universe was there.

what?

you mean the universe already existed but had no life in it?

Originally posted by 753
what?

you mean the universe already existed but had no life in it?
Life took a long time to develop on Earth so it follows that it would take a while to develop anywhere. It took a while for the Universe to "cool down" enough for life (as we know it) to develop anywhere.

God Swamp Thing. TGEB is nothingness/confusion

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Life took a long time to develop on Earth so it follows that it would take a while to develop anywhere. It took a while for the Universe to "cool down" enough for life (as we know it) to develop anywhere.

I'm not questioning that the universe existed for a long time before life began, I'm asking if thats what he meant. Is that what nekron is? the embodiment of a pre-cambrian universe?

Originally posted by kevdude
God Swamp Thing. TGEB is nothingness/confusion
I took the GEB to be the Presence's shadow. Not the Presence's equal but as close to the Presence as possible without being equal. If the Presence is infinite, GEB is transfinite.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
If the Presence is infinite, GEB is transfinite. What's the difference?

Edit.

Originally posted by 753
what?

you mean the universe already existed but had no life in it?
Yeah, there was a time when the universe had no life *shock*

Also, it doesn't have to real. It's comic, or biblical. Remember the quote from Bible where "God" said let there be light. That's when life actually began. I never read the bible, but I think that's what the point of that sentence is

It's not.

Originally posted by Mindset
It's not.
You're not

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yeah, there was a time when the universe had no life *shock*

Also, it doesn't have to real. It's comic, or biblical. Remember the quote from Bible where "God" said let there be light. That's when life actually began. I never read the bible, but I think that's what the point of that sentence is

Surprisingly enough, that's not what I was questioning. Your phrase was so confusing and poorly written, I was trying to understand what you were trying to say. Is nekrom the embodiment of a pre-life universe?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I took the GEB to be the Presence's shadow. Not the Presence's equal but as close to the Presence as possible without being equal. If the Presence is infinite, GEB is transfinite.

TGEB is the nothingness/confusion of the Void aka the overvoid. God/The Presence/The Source is the understanding and love that is its exact opposite. They are both shaped from the Void trying to gain consciousness and it could only gain that through learning. It gains consciousness through God as he is the only thing that can birth anything, confusion does nothing and is cold and so is discarded.. It is the understanding of God (or the void) that is self creating. This is what The Presence talks about with Lucifer while in the void/know nothingness. The Decreator is his shadow

Originally posted by xJLxKing
You're not Yo mama

Originally posted by Mindset
Yo mama
After your Moms



What? I though it was pretty easy to understand.

Nekron was in the universe before there was life. He is not alive. He is like death. He doesn't feel emotions like living beings do. He was there when the universe was empty, shallow, lifeless, and without reason.

Though, some evidence point otherwise. Remember in BN, someone stated that the darkness fought back. This is what torn the light in 7 different colors. The darkness that fought back could have been when Nekron was first created.

GEB is the second half of the presence. His other side of the coin.

And to be clear, you question was

Got it. Thanks

I was replying to your previous phrase though:

'Nekron was there was the universe was there.'

This is what I found confusing

Originally posted by xJLxKing
After your Moms



punches yours

Originally posted by 753
Got it. Thanks

I was replying to your previous phrase though:

'Nekron was there was the universe was there.'

This is what I found confusing
Sorry. I am always on the lookout from people who are looking to get me fired. So I text fast without looking on the screen

Originally posted by Enyalus
I think too many are focusing on how apparently weak The Presence is, and not on how powerful God Swamp Thing was...
This shit.

As an aside, wasn't it The Word that ST was a threat to usurp, and not the Presence itself?

EDIT: No, it was The Voice, you ignorant ****.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't need a lesson in theology. Nor a lesson in DC cosmogony. The Source empowers nearly everything in the DCU. The Presence, if the Lucifer series taught anything, has very little to do with his Creation. And with the entrance of the Primal Monitor into the DCU cosmological system, The Presence might not even be Supreme at all.

The Source is only an aspect of the Presence or His expansion. In another word, the Presence in a different role.

Originally posted by Enyalus
They agreed to merge and become whole. Prior to that...

About GEB, the Presence actually also created him. GEB also depends on the Presence (GEB was always His aspect and again it's Presence in a different role to play). When they merged, the Presence wanted it that way. Everything is the Presence energy, including GEB, so He can do whatever He wants with His energy.

Originally posted by Xplosive
About GEB, the Presence actually also created him. GEB also depends on the Presence (GEB was always His aspect and again it's Presence in a different role to play). When they merged, the Presence wanted it that way. Everything is the Presence energy, including GEB, so He can do whatever He wants with His energy.
Please prove it.

Yeah, I thought the GEB existed BEFORE the Presence.

No.

So if the presence is such a loser, how would It fare against TOAA?

Originally posted by 753

So if the presence is such a loser, how would It fare against TOAA?
TOAA's eraser FTW.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=494735&highlight=thoti+vs+the+presence+forumid%3A77

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=461971&highlight=thoti+vs+the+presence+forumid%3A77

Originally posted by Mindset
What's the difference?
There's no difference.