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Okay, what do we consider canon?

Just the movies? Or also the novelisations? Or the radio drama's? Or what about upcoming films: are GL's words enough for being canon even though it may not be in the movie specifically? How can we answer unanswered questions in the film without a filmed canonical record?

Thoughts please.

Canon, for those who do not know, is what actually is ture about the storyline, as opposed to what is just theory.

For convenience, I will repeat what the official line is on what parts of the published storyline, in any medium, is canon.

The only indisputable canon is the films. What the films say cannot be contradicted, unless something is definitively decided to be a mistake, like the ROTJ rank badges. The Continuity and Production department at Lucasarts handles these issues.

After the films, the only other published material that is canonical are, in this order:

The screnplays
The novels
The radio plays

These are canon, Anything they say is considered to be true unless superceded by a source above them. However, it is worth noting that large amounts of the novels and radio plays have been rejected lately- Obi-Wan's brother being OwenLars, and Luke's sabre construction in the radio play being two good examples.

It is best to take these things as goodguidelines rather than fact.

Expanded Uiverse material is NOT canon. Therefore, anythuing in the EU has no bearing whatsoever on the films. Hence, the new origins of Boba Fett do not contradict previous material, because the previous material wasn't even technically true in the first place, as far as the films are concerned. EU has its own canon/non canon status, and, for example, Splinter of the Mind's Eye has been removed from it.

That is it for storyline continuity, though it all causes some debate. it is worht noting that published storyline is not the only source of canon- the above material just regulates the published stuff. Technically, what is canon in the SW storyline is set as soon as GL thinks of it. It is not apparent, of course, until he actually says it.

However, this only applies to GL. Worth noting that RM's comments about, for example, sabre colours, are good indications but are NOT canon. Material in the website is not technically canon either, but it would be surprising if it was wrong.

So what about interviews with GL? Are they considered canon then? And if so, would that work for non-LFL magazines as well, since they may be edited beyond control of the Master himself.

This is a knotty point. As I say, technically anything GL says about his work is 100% canon.

Seen the equivalent thread at the Aussie guy's place by the way? Frank discounts what GL says as canon because he says the GL has become a big corrupted liar. He discounts TPM for the same reason...

Yes, well, my stance is more like what GL says goes until or unless it is contradicted by the films. Now, that leaves a grey area (like the dreaded "Did Vader disappear when he died" which I like so much) but it is often the only thing we have.

The thing also is that both the novelisation of ANH (because of the introduction) and that of ROTJ are canon now that Palpy's story is somewhat different and so is Owen Lars's. So canon until proven otherwise.

There is a rumour that GL is going to restrict storyline canon to JUST the movies, and nothing else. Still, nothing official has changed yet. And that would still mean that what he personally says was canon until, as you say, proven otherwise.

Indeed.

It will make debates on canon much clearer then. Phew, quite a relief.

OK, here's one.

Canon versus Timeline.

In our other discussion we agreed that Splinter of the Minds Eye had been dropped from the canon.

However, in the New Jedi Order books it is restored to the timeline, along with pretty much every novel ever written, if not all of them.

Now, if EU has a degree of canonical status, though obviously less than movies, etc, does this mean that Lucasbooks consider SOTME to be part of the canon?

As I understand it, EU has a totally seperate canon scale designed for it alone (though obviously, the movies appear in THAT as well). It was this EU canon that Splinter was dropped from... has it actualy been restored? That would be weird.
I'll have to check.

There can't be an EU without the movies. That much is clear. Without them they wouldn't exist and have no knowledge of the SW universe.

Nevertheless, the NJO is books, not stories related to the movies, so they are purely canon. There is, IMHO, no "degree in canonical status". As I stated before, when the ROTJ Owen Lars turns out to be false, the ROTJ book will also be EU. Even GL's ANH has strong tendencies to EU now that the introduction turns out to be false.

I would say that anything that happens after the last scene in ROTJ has to be 100% canon and that inconsistencies should be treated as mistakes. Why? Well, there are no movies to override them. As for histoprical events referred to in the books, they can be explained away by saying that histoprical records may have been incorrectly kept.

As for the timeline, all the NJO books have the timeline and Splinter is definately in there, along with the other, very early books.

By degree on canonical status, rhis was something that came ujp in the conversation between Ush and myself. I think what I mean is that the depiction of the way something happens on film would be considered as being correct over say the version in a nevelisation of the film, you see what I mean?

Absolutely. As I say, order for storylines is Films, Screenplays, Novels (NOT books- adapted novels), Radio. Strictly the formers override the latters.

The reason Splinter got fired is that is is totally contradictory to other stuff, having been written before they knew ESB would be made. It appears in the timeline on the CD as well, but then so does Rebel Assault...

But once they are contridactary, I don't care what "degree of canonicity" they have, they are wrong.

And I also disagree about ANY canonical status of post-ROTJ books. Many of them refer to the past, to time during or even before the OT. Therefore, if they are to be considered canon, they often contradict the movies, therefore any degree in being canon is off, even for these.

Oh yeah, I agree entirely. That's what the degree is there for. If you have two conflicting accounts of something, you then need to be able to say which is the true depiction. When you talk about the movies versus EU then it's clearly got to be the movies.

But if you got to say, something in a game and something in a comic book that conflicts then you need to be able to say which has presidence, that's all I mean.

I'm not sure how you would do it, I know Ush did post something about that once but I can't remember the exact order.

Besides, once you get down to those areas, it does get kinda siully because the liberties taken in games and comics can be quite rediculous in themselves sometimes.

I guess so, normally they do take enormous liberties in order to maintain the gaming experience.

Not sure wht yuou were getting at Queeq, I just said what gets priority in case of conflict.

As I say, order is

1. Films
2. Screenplays
3. Novels
4. Radio Dramas

FOr the EU canon, the order is the same with the EU books in at number 5

As far as I am aware, no computer game has ever made part of even the EU canon. It would be a nightmare to include them; they are nearly all riddles with continuity problems- as RC says, all with good cause, of course, but that they mess around with things still rules them out the storyline, on the whole.

What? You mean Luke didn't really race across the Tatooine desert with Kyle Kataan on swoop bikes before he went off to face Jabba? OMG, my illusion has been shattered.

And there must have been at least two other Death Stars at Yavin that other pilots destroyed...

The trouble with games is that, as fun as they may be, they manipulate established ideas to make them more game-friendly. The most hideous is the concept that it was not Lando who piloted the Millenium Falcon at the battle of Endor. It was in fact Ace Azzameen, in order to allow you to fly that mission in X-Wing Alliance. My enjoyment of the final mission was ruined by my unwillingness to accept this plot 'tweak'.

Others include the common useage of the shield generators in Force Commander, meaning that the probe droid scans sent in ESB would have proved that the Rebels were on Hoth, without Vader's uncanny powers of perception. Oh, and the Rebels used tanks on Hoth too. Ahem.

Oh, the battle of Hoth was cruddy in that game...

Also in XWA in thr Battle of Endor, the SSD is destroyed at the wrong time.

Well, having thoroughly dismissed computer game canonicity... any other thoughts on canon in general?

I think queeqs response to you post #17 is the next requirement here.

I think queeqs response to you post #17 is the next requirement here.

For me, books and games are utterly non-canon EU, yet they do contribute to the SW experience. They provide a platform to enjoy more of the SW world/experience. Yet, they are non-canon, just an enjoyable SW passtime.

Well, as for XWA, may I remind you it's a space sim. It simulates the battle in the manner of "what would happen if you were a great pilot and you do so well YOU would be elected to lead the attack on the DS2". That's basically what all simulation games do, even the board games that replay historical battles. So that's legit IMHO.

Good point, I guess that discounts ALL games from the series.

It's EU anyway. And not all of them are non-sims.

Well Sims or Adventures would be pretty boring if the interaction of thre player didn't actually change the outcome of events.

I think discounting games is a good idea, too much licence to change events to suit the medium.

Same goes for the books. So that's all non-countable EU to me.

So how about interviews with GL? Would you say that is canon?

Actually, at base, there is nothing to seperate the games from the books, officiality wise. They all tend to go through the saem purpose; much of the basic XWA plot is now considered part of the EU canon, ditto for Kyle Katarn (soon to get a third outing! Woo-hoo!)

It just happens that, even more so than the books, the games tend to mess up continuity.

As for GL's interviews, technically speaking, yes, they are.